During a friendly game last night, an idea popped into my mind (nothing to do with the game being played) and we pondered it but couldn't decide how it would work.

Assuming a dwarf/elf deck, with Dragon Mage (I think that's the name) in play and Gromril Armour on him. Would that mean that:

A: Any damage dealt to the mage would be reduced to 1 and then countered by the toughness of the armour

or

B: The toughness is considered before the damage reducing of the mage.

Sadly, it's A. "Thanks" to the FAQ ruling on damage with regard to cancelling effects, a single DM + GA combo blocks an infinite amount of uncancellable damage . Assign 50 dmg, DM reduces to 1, Toughness kicks in, negates even the remaining 1. And to boot, if your attackers get to assign 50 dmg, you HAVE to assign 50 to the DM, even though he has 3 HP, because you have to assign enough to destroy the Unit, even if you can't actually destroy the Unit .

Dam said:

Didnt you mean "infinite amount of _cancellable_ damage? Thoughness cannot prevent uncancellable damage.

Pedro Ruano said:

Whoops, yep. Meant nonuncancellable !

My brain is still messed up over the damage dealing change in the FAQ (still haven't played W:I since the FAQ came out).

i have got an answer from Mr. Hata

Hello, Both of the cards work on the same timing window, so therefore if you control both cards then you can choose which order they go off. You can choose to have the Dragonmage's effect to go off first, then have Gromril Armour go off to cancel the last point of damage. Hope this helps! James

Thanks guys. Thats a bit dodgey but if it works.

Ok. maybe I'm missing something. Where in the FAQ does it state that you have to assign all the damage to the mage? By the RB, aren't you only forced to assign damage enough to kill it prior to any other effects going off before you assign damage to the capital? Can you point me to where in the FAQ this is changed please?

XCoconutMonkey06X said:

Assuming the Dragonmage is defending alone, you have to assign every point of damage to it. FAQ changed the rules in that you now have to assign enough damage to destroy all defending Units before you get to assign any to capital. This is the case even when faced with an unkillable Unit, like Dragonmage + Gromril combo. Even though you can't destroy the Unit, you have to assign enough to destroy the Unit, in this case you have to assign infinite amount to the DM and even that's not enough to destroy him.

Before FAQ:

Dragonmage + Gromril Armor combo defends, attacker counts a total of 20 damage to assign. DM has 3HP, so only need to assign 3 dmg to him, 17 can be assigned to capital.

After FAQ:

You need to assign all 20 dmg to the DM, even though barring uncancellable damage, he won't be destroyed. No damage will go through to the capital. But still you must assign damage enough to destroy him, so he will suck all the dmg to him.

But wouldn't the Dragon Mage's damage reduction in essence be classified as a "damage cancellation effect"? And lets jsut say that you have to factor in the Gromril Armor in your damage assingment. So, when it comes to assinging damage, you only have to assign 3 damage because that *would* kill him with toughness but once the damage is assigned, thats when the Dragon Mage's ability kicks in and reduces that to 1. But that's only when it's assigned. It can't make you then re-allocate more damage to him. That would create multiple damage assingment phases.

XCoconutMonkey06X said:

You have to account for all damage cancellation effects that are currently in play at the time of assigning damage. FAQ ruling doesn't care that it would kill him if not for his cancellation, you still need to assign enough to kill him, even if you can't kill him.

If you play Steel's Bane during the Action Window in the Declare Defenders step, your opponent would need to assign 10 + X dmg to that Unit (X = Unit's remaining HP), before they could assign any to capital. If you played Steel's Bane between the Assign and Apply Damage steps, there would be no new assingning of damage, but SB would most likely cancel all the dmg assigned to the Unit and keep it alive. Any damage going through to capital would still go through.

X

You need to look at the FAQ and read the new damage assignment language. You now have to assign enough damage to destroy the defending unit TAKING INTO CONSIDERATION its HP and any damage cancellation effects currently in play. So lets say:

1. You are attacking and have 5 damage to assign.

2. There is one defender with no damage on it that has 3HP and Toughness 1.

3. During the ASSIGNMENT PHASE you have to assign 4 of your damage to the unit, you then can assign 1 damage to the capital.

4. Going 1 step further, if during the Action phase in between Assignment and Application, your opponent triggers a card effect that increases the HP or toughness of the defender, you DO NOT have to rearrange your damage to match the additional HP or toughness.

Applying this to Dragonmage with Gromril Armor we find that even an infinite amount of damage to destroy the Dragonmage so that it soaks your whole attack. I am pretty sure James has ruled that the player controlling the Dragonmage can decide the timing of the damage cancellation effects so that the Dragonmage's ability cancels all but one of the damage and then the gromil armor cancels the last point.

But my issue comes with then the damage reduction triggers. The reduction triggers when damage is assigned, not while damage is being assigned. Also, with the wording, you don't have to take into account Toughness because that's a damage cancelling effect that also triggers after damage has been assigned. FAQ just notes that you can assign more damage in anticipation of that ability in addition to others. This leaves the player open to use tactic cards like 'Mob Up'.

But you still have to take cancelling effects into account while assigning, even if they don't kick in until later. If the effect exists when you start to assign damage, you have to account for it.

Dam said:

XCoconutMonkey06X: From the original rulebook, you are correct. However, it changed in the latest FAQ and now you have to assign damage sufficient to destroy all blockers before you can assign damage to the capital.

Here's the answer from James Hata:

"1) According to the FAQ during combat the attacker must assign enough damage to each unit to destroy it, before he may assign damage to the zone being attacked. Does the attacker have to account for cancellation effects (Toughness or Steel's Bane or the Warrior Priest's ability)? I.E. If the defender declares a Pistolier as defender and plays Steel's Bane on it, does the attacker have to assign 12 damage to the Pistoliers, before he may assign damage to the capital?

1) The short answer is yes. The attacker must assign enough damage to destroy any defending units before damage can be assigned to the capital. This includes any damage cancellation effects that are present when the damage is being assigned. (ie. Toughness on a unit). Your example is correct."

www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp (p.2 if the link doesn't take you there)

I've read the FAQ. It clearly states that you "can" assign more damage in anticipation of damage reducing effects. Not "have" to. Can and Have are two different paths.

XCoconutMonkey06X said:

what you don't understand is that you can put more damage than what is necessary to destroy the enemy unit. (as you just state)

BUT, you cannot put damage on capital while you don't put enough damage to destroy the enemy.

i think it's quite clear in what James explained.

Hi,

Yes, in your example you must assign all 20 damage to the Swordmasters
of Hoeth.

James

> Message from:
> Tobogan
>
> Rule Question:
> Hi there.
>
> Since the release of the FAQ, there have been a little controversial
> about Combat Damage, arguing that you have to apply damage equal to
> defending units remaining hit points plus active damage cancellation
> on those units, which seem weird because removes optional decisions
> to players. So the question is this:
>
> If i attack with a total power of, lets see, 20, and my opponent
> only defends with the brand new Swordmasters of Hoeth, do I have to
> assign ALL of those 20 damage to the Swordmasters, or just 3, which
> would be neccesary to kill them in a normal situation and the
> remaining 17 damage to the capital?
>
> Thanks.

But when does damage cancellation effects become "active"?

Well, Resistance, or Sowrdmaster's ability are active while you assign damage. A blessing of Valaya or Steel's bane played between assign and apply damage is not active when assigning.

BTW, do I have to assign 2 damage tokens to Warrior Priests while assigning damage or just one because that ability doesn't cancel damage or triggers when damage is applied?

Active means present, not necessarily currently resolving. So any card effect that has been played as well as any card ability on the table that would keep a unit from being destroyed by a certain amount of damage MUST be taken into account when you assign damage if you wish to assign damage to your opponents capital.

If you are not attempting to assign damage to your opponents capital you can assign whatever damage you want to your opponents defending units in any amount you want, in any distribution you want. The only time you MUST take canceling effects into account is if you wish to damage your opponents capital. Luckily there are numerous ways to get around or otherwise remove these defensive walls, including simply not attacking that zone if your goal is to damage the capital in any given attack.

What I don't understand is what happens in this example: my opponent attacks with 7 dmg and I have declared 1 Shadow Warrior as a defender. Now in the assigning dmg phase he would assign 1 dmg on Shadow Warrior and the rest on my capital. If I play Steel's Bane now in the action window before applying dmg what happens with the dmg tokens he assigned on my capital? Can he reassign or does the dmg completely negate himself because there is a unit that still is in play as defender?

Nothing happens except Shadow Warrior lives. There is no going back and canceling damage after the fact. Steel's Bane must be played before damage is assigned to protect the capital. Once damage is assigned there is already damage waiting to be applied to the capital and no effect that does not specifically cancel damage to a zone would prevent that damage from being applied.

All that changed was when damage could legally be assigned to a capital zone, nothing else. This means the steps are still

1. Declare Attack Zone
2. Declare Attackers
3. Declare Defenders
4. Assign Damage
5. Apply Damage

with a player action in between each of those. Damage canceling happens at the beginning of step 5 when you would be taking the damage counters next to the units and zone and be moving them on to the unit or zone. At this point nothing can unassign, redirect, remove, or move assigned damage, it can only be canceled. After it has been applied it can only be healed or moved.