There were endless endless endless fix threads for X-Wing before 2.0 was announced, and thank god we've had an end to all that because they rarely did anything but spawn arguments. With the game about to fork down two different paths - the majority jumping to 2nd Edition, a more casual minority remaining with 1st Edition - I want to revisit the idea of putting in place a 'parting gift' of balance adjustments for the 1st Edition legacy. This would try and curb some of the worst excesses of the late 1st Edition metagame and try to create a more pleasant play experience for those who will be left playing 1st Edition.

Primary Objectives : tune down excess dice modification (offense & defense), reduce potency of secondary weapons, reduce most oppressive control effects.

Secondary Objectives: buff underplayed ships

Because 1st Edition is likely to have far fewer competitive events going forwards there's less pressure to try and 'balance' the game, as much as just trying to tune down some of the less enjoyable aspects and create a platform for a bit more creative pew-pew. And hopefully most of the people who would respond so vehemently against fix threads will leave it alone a bit because they're moving onto 2nd Edition anyway.

So, some ideas off the top of my head...

EPTS

• Push The Limit - "When you perform a boost or barrel roll action you may perform a free action on your action bar. If you do so gain a stress token"
• Veteran Instincts - " At the beginning of the Activation Phase you may discard this card. If you do so treat your Pilot Skill as though it was 12 until the end the of turn "
• Expertise - "When you are attacking, if you are not stressed you may change one [Focus] result to a [Crit] result "

PTL not allowing you to stack either Focus/Evade or TL/Focus is right on target for reducing the excess dice modification. Veteran Instincts is something that's been removed from 2.0, making it a one-shot effect is still very potent I think, and probably still gets played heavily. Expertise aligns with Luke's gunner ability as what being one with the Force adds to your attack, more like a Predator-level dice mod.

SECONDARY WEAPONS

• TLT - " Your attack dice cannot be modified "
• Extra Munitions - " Your action bar gains the [Reload] icon "
• Guidance Chips - "Once per turn, when attacking with a [Torpedo] weapon..."
• Bomblet Generator - "When you reveal your dial you may either add a Munitions token to Bomblet Generator, or remove a Munitions token from Bomblet Generator to drop 1 bomblet token"

Reducing Secondary Weapons is a big deal for me because if you can close the gap to primary weapons you really bring back a lot of potential for generics. TLT is a much less reliable damage source and won't beat agile fighters, Extra Munitions at least pauses the flow of ordnance while they reload, Guidance Chips being used on Torpedoes-only takes it away from sitting on top of the extra Missiles reroll from not having to spend their TL, Bomblet Generator to every other turn at least gives you a negative to just spamming the bomb out whenever you move.

RULES CHANGES

• Reinforce - "When defending, if you have at least one shield token you may add an [Evade] result"
• Secondary Weapons - " you may roll an additional green dice when defending against secondary weapons at R3 ."
• Bomb Tokens - " If a ship's base or maneuver template causes a bomb token to detonate that ship rolls a number of green dice equal to its printed Agility. If there are any [Focus] results then the ship may ignore the effects of the bomb's detonation "

The Reinforce rules change is just aimed at nerfing the triple/quad Auzituck squads a bit, I think Lowhhrick probably still functions but switches to R2-D2 crew not C-3PO. Secondary Weapons green dice just pushes back further on Harpoons/Dash/Plasma Torps etc, and never really made much fluff sense to me that you didn't get it. The Bomb tokens one is a big change that would need to be tested through, but essentially I want to try and make bombs playable but not completely suppressive of A-Wings/Protectorates/Interceptors etc.

PILOTS/SHIPS

• Punishing One - " When attacking, if the defender is inside your firing arc you may roll an additional red dice. Your upgrade bar gains [Salvaged Astromech] "
• Fenn Rau Sheathipede - "When a ship in your firing arc at range 1-3 becomes the active ship during the combat phase, if you are not stressed you may receive 2 stress tokens . If you do..."
• Quickdraw - TBC
• Slave I - Buff TBC
• B-Wing/E1 - Buff TBC
• TIE Punisher - Buff TBC
  

MISC

• Latts Razzi - " Once per turn... "
• R3-A2 - "When you declare the target of your attack, if you are not stressed and the defender is in your firing arc, you may receive 1 stress token to cause the defender to receive 1 stress token"

WATCH LIST (no changes yet, but we'd be looking at how they do)

• Director Krennic, Harpoon Missiles, Miranda Doni, Crack Shot, Sabine Wren crew

What do we think. Is this a useful project to create this before we wave goodbye to the 1st Edition players?

Just play 2.0.

2 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Just play 2.0.

Kinda harshly put but yeah, if you want to play a "rules fixed" version of 1.0, that literally is 2.0. If you like 1.0 as it is, crack on and enjoy it !

8 minutes ago, Max Teranous said:

If you like 1.0 as it is...

If you want to keep playing 1.0, consider why

- if you like a mechanic that was removed- Congrats, you like flying cancer, probably because it's easy to win

- If you think you can't afford it, it's a one-time fee of $90 MSRP, probably $70 if you go online. (For conversion+core- most collections are approx that size. Note, you can buy conversion kit parts 3rd party online) If you can't afford that with a 4 month leadup time, you are either lying or in such a bad financial scenario that you should not be playing X-wing, or any game whatsoever. Spending that time making a 1.0 fan ruleset would be better served searching for a job.

- Hate the concept of change in principle(see point one most likely)

Rebalancing 1.0 is effectively multiple different games being recombined. The power level is not consistent.

Miranda is unchecked. Apart from her TLT is worse. And her bombs are worse. And her Harpoons and Torpedoes are worse. And her Extra Munitions are worse. But yes apart from that these changes would not affect her at all.


Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think any discussion that starts off with "why are you playing 1.0, you must either be an idiot or poisonous toxic cancer-loving jerk by not playing Second Edition" is going to be very constructive.

8 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Maybe  I'm wrong but I don't think any discussion that starts off with "why are you playing 1.0, you must either be an idiot or poisonous toxic cancer-loving jerk by not playing Second Edition" is going to be very constructive.  

The way he said it is not constructive. But „ask yourself why you want to keep playing 1.0?“ is a valid point.

So, why?

Personally it would be about individual pilots/abilities that I really liked and that are different in 2.0, but they haven‘t been viable in such a long time that the changes would be oddly specific.

Just now, GreenDragoon said:

The way he said it is not constructive. But „ask yourself why you want to keep playing 1.0?“ is a valid point.

So, why?

Personally it would be about individual pilots/abilities that I really liked and that are different in 2.0, but they haven‘t been viable in such a long time that the changes would be oddly specific.

I think that's a personal decision for each player to make. In my case:

• the people I'm playing with most often are unlikely to change, for their own personal reasons that aren't mine
• I playtested on the AGOT 2.0 reboot and believe I see X-Wing 2.0 making many of the same mistakes
• I'm a sociopathic pauper with leprosy and a bad cough

I break it down into that X-Wing 2.0 doesn't have to sell me casual X-Wing because I've already got casual X-Wing and it's not going anywhere. X-Wing 2.0 has to sell me competitive X-Wing, and so far what I've seen has entirely failed to do that. That leaves me trying to build some community rules to help give 1.0 the most pleasant ride into the sunset possible.

So anyway, back to the actual changes suggested...?

I'm in the "why not just play 2ndE" Camp. But if that is just not something some want to do, I suggest checking out the 1.5 Rule set that Phoenix Squadron has put together for there Phoenix Squadron Championships that's going on right now. It may just be what you're looking for.

I like this thread and the way you are taking this SOTL - I am on a similar page.

Suggestions:

Miranda's ability: keep it but make it in-front-arc only.

Keep Guidance Chips as is, but simply make Harpoon missiles not able to use it.

Limit Sabine to damage to shields only.

Unnerf Advanced Slam (with miranda/sabine nerfed=ok).

Limit R2D2/R5P9 to 4 shield recharges (place 4 shield tokens at setup on the card).

Undo JM5K nerf, but remove elite pilot talent slot from contracted scout.

Punishing one title removes torpedo slots.

E-wing: 1 shield and inbuilt long range scanners (Yes Corran becomes better, but)

Corran Horn: you may only reroll 1 dice result in your end-phase attack.

TIE Punisher: Epts on Aces, PS+2 on all ships. One Torpedo/Missile/Bomb-upgrade card is free.

TIE/D title: -2 point on equipped cannon.

Royal Guard Title: usable by all PS interceptors. -1 pt on all modifications. Discard to ignore bomb effects. Epts on all Aces

First Order Vanguard: no longer unique.

Kylo Ren (Silencer): when attacking may roll one additional red dice at range 3, instead of his present crap ability.

undo Mindlink nerf, but let it make all green hard-turns white.

This sounds a lot like the X-wing community Mod that I was putting together - which is essentially ready to go, it just needs someone motivated to build a squad builder for it.

3 hours ago, SOTL said:

I think that's a personal decision for each player to make. In my case:

• the people I'm playing with most often are unlikely to change, for their own personal reasons that aren't mine
• I playtested on the AGOT 2.0 reboot and believe I see X-Wing 2.0 making many of the same mistakes
• I'm a sociopathic pauper with leprosy and a bad cough

I break it down into that X-Wing 2.0 doesn't have to sell me casual X-Wing because I've already got casual X-Wing and it's not going anywhere. X-Wing 2.0 has to sell me competitive X-Wing, and so far what I've seen has entirely failed to do that. That leaves me trying to build some community rules to help give 1.0 the most pleasant ride into the sunset possible.

That’s an interesting way to look at it. I’m going OT again but I genuinely curious as to what you see as the same mistakes. If you don’t want to add to it here, feel free to PM me or link where else you may have discussed it. Thanks!

@MajorJuggler don't forget to link to your work!

It's considerably more comprehensive than what has so far been put forward by @RedHotDice and @SOTL but it's also balancing basically everything against those changes. Presumably to bypass the "tier 1.5 becomes tier 1" problem.

55 minutes ago, MajorJuggler said:

This sounds a lot like the X-wing community Mod that I was putting together - which is essentially ready to go, it just needs someone motivated to build a squad builder for it.

Yes I think so. The 2.0 announcement gives a lot more 'permission to play' with 1.0 as both there's some sacred cows being hit by FFG (like PTL/VI) and a lot of the people who would argue about it are going to 2.0 anyway.

The floor is clear to fix 1.0 properly without interference.

I am working on something like this. I am just getting back in the groove of it after taking a vacation.

I have a website:

www.xwingone.com

It is also to convert 2.0 ships back to 1.0.

I need all the help I can get!!!! Due to other projects and lack of time.

There's a lot of players around me that won't transition to 2e, at least initially. Money being one factor and the unknown quality of the app being another. We don't know enough about 2e to hail it as X-wing's salvation.

@MajorJuggler 's work is really comprehensive, to the point of being almost a rewrite and that feels like a much bigger deal.

It also starts with a totally different premise - it's seeking to balance the game, while with most competitive players moving on I think balance doesn't really matter as much as just making the game fun to play. Nobody is really going to be playing 1.0 competitively enough to ever test whether it's balanced anyway!

Minimum changes, maximum impact. Least new stuff to remember, leave stuff people know and like the way they know and like it.

The idea is good, but we may end up proposing changing 1.0 for what we like in 2.0, or what we hate in 1.0.

My two pennorth, (after a frustrating game against shadowcaster k4 glitterstim), I really hated actions which were auto. So k4 acquire a target lock - doesn't matter if you flew through debris, then rotate arc even if stressed. They should be (free) actions.

But it looks like 2.0 addresses this

Here are some of my thoughts (in random order). I know some over lap what was stated above, but just my thoughts.

-3 defense dice while cloaked
-The TLT second shot only works at range 3
-All Sheathipede EPS Slots removed
-PS 10 ships on the board are an extra 2 points each
-PS 11 ships are an extra 4 points each
-Change adaptabilities rule set, you have to select a side before it is placed

Also:
-2.0 dials are an extra 2 points to use. (Some ships this will be worth it, others will not be.)

10 minutes ago, Dalziel said:

The idea is good, but we may end up proposing changing 1.0 for what we like in 2.0, or what we hate in 1.0.

My two pennorth, (after a frustrating game against shadowcaster k4 glitterstim), I really hated actions which were auto. So k4 acquire a target lock - doesn't matter if you flew through debris, then rotate arc even if stressed. They should be (free) actions.

But it looks like 2.0 addresses this

Yeah, K4 type thing is a good catch I'd want to put something in there.

1 hour ago, nitrobenz said:

@MajorJuggler don't forget to link to your work!

It's considerably more comprehensive than what has so far been put forward by @RedHotDice and @SOTL but it's also balancing basically everything against those changes. Presumably to bypass the "tier 1.5 becomes tier 1" problem.

Was aware of Majorjugglers work, but also how a complete overhaul it is, and like SOTL I am more looking for some simple changes (fix/bufs) to the "outliers" and core mechanics to keep the game like 1.0 (WHICH IS A GAME I LOVE), but "better" in a casual setting.

For the perfectly balances tournament setting I will be going 2.0.

I like.

We'll probably not be switching but integrating what we like via house rule, at least for the foreseeable, and I think the OP is pretty spot on.

Just play 2.0 is redundant in this context.

We do already avoid the problems by balancing at the list stage. If something is going to cause NPE or balance issues, we simply don't use it. However, opening up some of these things for use by toning them down obviously brings more to the table and can only be positive.

Thanks for the well thought post.

Ya just make changes with your friends since it will only be for casual play anyway. Then when you get sick of broken s#hit, you can come play 2.0.

I’d say if you want to play 1.0 then really play it! Nothing is barred! Cloak works like in wave 4, tactician is unlimited, Junkmasters are the original OP, etc...

Just say no to the FAQ

when everything is broken then nothing needs fixing