Yeah I’m pretty certain they remove locks. Remember, a lock is still a token (just a token on an enemy ship instead of two tokens) but now that token literally has your ship ID# printed on it. Very, very easy to associate that token with the locking ship IMO. I haven’t seen it written anywhere that jam tokens only remove green tokens. For all we know, they could work against cloak tokens as well!

They just need to word it like: For every hit and crit, remove one green token from your ship, or remove your ship’s corresponding target lock token.

That’s not really hard...

And if that’s the case, my ships might all target lock an Asteroid at the start of the game, or each other. Because that’d be the first token that goes away...?

28 minutes ago, ForceM said:

They just need to word it like: For every hit and crit, remove one green token from your ship, or remove your ship’s corresponding target lock token.

That’s not really hard...

And if that’s the case, my ships might all target lock an Asteroid at the start of the game, or each other. Because that’d be the first token that goes away...?

They have stated that the jammer gets to choose the token, not the Jammee.

This thread killed my productivity at work today...

But seriously, I would put the J-Beam in a toolbox list if I could, I feel like that is where it belongs anyway.

8 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

They have stated that the jammer gets to choose the token, not the Jammee.

Worth re-iterating.

1 hour ago, Tlfj200 said:

Worth re-iterating.

That would be an improvement at least. IF TLs can be removed, it will only lack the ability to stick around.

49 minutes ago, ForceM said:

That would be an improvement at least. IF TLs can be removed, it will only lack the ability to stick around.

Which was one of their best uses anyways.

Oh, you rotated your arc or repositioned or already spent your token this turn? I guess you’re immune to jamming.

18 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

Oh, you rotated your arc or repositioned or already spent your token this turn? I guess you’re immune to jamming.

Well, from a fluff/RL perspective, that's the way it should work. The token sticking around never made sense from that perspective. Once the ship doing the jamming stops taking active measures to jam, the jammed ship should be no longer be jammed. I guess what would make the most sense is for the token to stick around for one entire "turn" but that is probably too fiddly to track. Especially if there are any ships with the jam action and the jamming beam cannon. Then you'd need to track not only what ship each token came from, but whether it came from the action or the cannon. Just having them all drop at end of the turn is much simpler.

1 minute ago, JamesWG said:

Well, from a fluff/RL perspective, that's the way it should work. The token sticking around never made sense from that perspective. Once the ship doing the jamming stops taking active measures to jam, the jammed ship should be no longer be jammed. I guess what would make the most sense is for the token to stick around for one entire "turn" but that is probably too fiddly to track. Especially if there are any ships with the jam action and the jamming beam cannon. Then you'd need to track not only what ship each token came from, but whether it came from the action or the cannon. Just having them all drop at end of the turn is much simpler.

The jam token should still be useful though. The ships still use targeting computers for direct fire, even if they don’t have a lock.

How about letting the jammer spend the token to force one die reroll?

5 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

The jam token should still be useful though. The ships still use targeting computers for direct fire, even if they don’t have a lock.

How about letting the jammer spend the token to force one die reroll?

I should have clarified that I was not refuting your claim that jam is overly nerfed in 2.0 (I have no opinion on that so far). I was more reacting to your implication that it made no sense for someone being jammed to try and wait out the jam by doing things that can't be jammed, like rotating their turret. Waiting for the jammer to stop jamming actually makes a lot of real life sense.

Personally I like your idea of spending the token to force a reroll. Though that won't really help low initiative users of jamming beam. I don't really think there is much that can help them. The only real use I can see for it is removing locks that the locker intends to use next turn, forcing them to have to re-take the lock action. But that is such an edge case jamming beam would need to be 1 point or free. And with the app, they can actually do that if they want. Make it cost a few points for I6 pilots, down to 1 point for I2 pilots and free for I1 pilots. Though I'm not sure FFG intends to get that granular with upgrade pricing, even though they can.

1 minute ago, JamesWG said:

I should have clarified that I was not refuting your claim that jam is overly nerfed in 2.0 (I have no opinion on that so far). I was more reacting to your implication that it made no sense for someone being jammed to try and wait out the jam by doing things that can't be jammed, like rotating their turret. Waiting for the jammer to stop jamming actually makes a lot of real life sense.

Personally I like your idea of spending the token to force a reroll. Though that won't really help low initiative users of jamming beam. I don't really think there is much that can help them. The only real use I can see for it is removing locks that the locker intends to use next turn, forcing them to have to re-take the lock action. But that is such an edge case jamming beam would need to be 1 point or free. And with the app, they can actually do that if they want. Make it cost a few points for I6 pilots, down to 1 point for I2 pilots and free for I1 pilots. Though I'm not sure FFG intends to get that granular with upgrade pricing, even though they can.

Eh, I doubt I’d take jamming beam on an I6 ship even at zero points.

It's really quite simple. Every other control element allows you to do something if you successfully apply it.

Ions stay on your ship, and eventually, will come and slow you down. Even if you would normally just move 1, your actions are limited to a single focus action.

Stress necessitates green moves, or denies actions, and it always removes the possibilities of red moves.

Tractor reduces the Agility, and might even move the ship around, straight onto a rock, if you so choose.

WD is self applied, but also always removes an attack.

Jam on the other hand can (and frequently will) do nothing, even if you apply it successfully.

9 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

It's really quite simple. Every other control element allows you to do something if you successfully apply it.

Ions stay on your ship, and eventually, will come and slow you down. Even if you would normally just move 1, your actions are limited to a single focus action.

Stress necessitates green moves, or denies actions, and it always removes the possibilities of red moves.

Tractor reduces the Agility, and might even move the ship around, straight onto a rock, if you so choose.

WD is self applied, but also always removes an attack.

Jam on the other hand can (and frequently will) do nothing, even if you apply it successfully.

What if the Jam beams can be fired at the end of the engagement phase?

But to do so costs a weapon disabled token?

9 minutes ago, Scum4Life said:

What if the Jam beams can be fired at the end of the engagement phase?

But to do so costs a weapon disabled token?

If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts...

3 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts...

wow i've never come across that one, is it a local refrain?

14 minutes ago, Scum4Life said:

What if the Jam beams can be fired at the end of the engagement phase?

But to do so costs a weapon disabled token?

Then it would have stated as such on the card. I would have liked to have seen jamming beam as an action instead of replacing your attack.

6 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts...

Well?! what if they were?! don't leave us hanging like that!

1 minute ago, PanchoX1 said:

Well?! what if they were?! don't leave us hanging like that!

Right we need to know how it ends, because i've not heard it before.

AARGHHHHH! the anticipation!!!

5 minutes ago, Hobojebus said:

Right we need to know how it ends, because i've not heard it before.

AARGHHHHH! the anticipation!!!

Arrakis teaches the attitude of the knife - chopping off what's incomplete and saying: 'Now, it's complete because it's ended here.

Learn to live with it.

10 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

Arrakis teaches the attitude of the knife - chopping off what's incomplete and saying: 'Now, it's complete because it's ended here.

Learn to live with it.

Hmm i will but only because of the Dune reference.

59 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

Tractor reduces the Agility, and might even move the ship around, straight onto a rock, if you so choose. 

But reducing the agility means you have to put the cannon on a high PS ship, and you taught us that this makes it unplayable?

28 minutes ago, Hobojebus said:

Right we need to know how it ends, because i've not heard it before.

AARGHHHHH! the anticipation!!!

The full line is:

Quote

If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas.

Seems to originally be attributed to Don Meredith and patterned after "If wishes were horses, then beggars would ride". See etymology on Stackexchange for more info.

5 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

But reducing the agility means you have to put the cannon on a high PS ship, and you taught us that this makes it unplayable?

You don't understand. Tractor beams can successfully affect every ship in the game, all the time. Ions too. Stress too. No matter what you do as the attacker, something will happen if you put enough of them on a ship.

This isn't true for jamming. Locks are not confirmed to be affected, and with so fewer actions, it is likely that most ships will not take focus/evade/reinforce/calculate every round. So if you did something else that round, Jam just doesn't affect you in the slightest. It will go away, so you never face a limitation by being hit by a weapon that costs points AND the opportunity of another attack.

You sacrifice something, for a very marginal benefit, which might not even happen depending on your opponent. The result is not guaranteed, while also being kindof underwhelming, and it costs an attack to do.

There is no reason to take this cannon, and very very few reasons to take the action. (Which sucks because of Range 1 for some stupid reason)

It just feels like Jam was hit too hard with the nerfhammer during testing. Too many limitations. It doesn't affect everything, the action is extremely limited in range, the weapons cost an attack... Not a great option at all. Which is a shame, since it is an interesting concept

4 minutes ago, Nspace said:

The full line is:

Seems to originally be attributed to Don Meredith and patterned after "If wishes were horses, then beggars would ride". See etymology on Stackexchange for more info.

I'd like to believe they would have googled it eventually.

3 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

You don't understand. Tractor beams can successfully affect every ship in the game, all the time. Ions too. Stress too. No matter what you do as the attacker, something will happen if you put enough of them on a ship.

And why does it matter? If your last ship attacks with a tractor beam then affecting the agility did not matter at all, whether it was successful or not.

You don't have to use jamming beam even if equipped. You will know perfectly whether attacking with it will have an effect or not. You don't know that perfectly for the jam action, but it does not matter there because you deny the action and that is the goal of the jam anyway.

Keep in mind that an extra modification is most of the time better than an extra die. That means a successful jam (action or beam) is better than the -1 agility part of a tractor beam.

59 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

You don't understand. Tractor beams can successfully affect every ship in the game, all the time. Ions too. Stress too. No matter what you do as the attacker, something will happen if you put enough of them on a ship.

Nope. Get two ions on a big ship? Doesn't matter; they go away at the end of a round now too. Two tractors? Still goes away. They're the same shape and color. I'm not sure why you're making this argument tbh