2 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Vader seems doubtful. Force is going to come at a real points premium, ditto a high PS Defender.

I'd guess at Soontir, Quiz (not being able to get a 3rd primary), or one of the Phantoms (dropping to 3 dice making them way cheaper), or one of the non-Force Advanceds.

Or a big support ship like a Reaper or even maybe a low PS Deci.

Dunno, maybe Vader squeezes in. We know there's an 84pt version of him, we know 4 x Academy TIEs are 96 pts, - is the 20 pts left enough to upgrade 3 of the TIE's to Howl/Iden/Wampa?

12 minutes ago, Max Teranous said:

Dunno, maybe Vader squeezes in. We know there's an 84pt version of him, we know 4 x Academy TIEs are 96 pts, - is the 20 pts left enough to upgrade 3 of the TIE's to Howl/Iden/Wampa?

One can but hope. But I'd expect Howl plus 3 decent TIES to be 128 points or thereabouts (Howl plus 3 black cracks in 1e being 64) so there would have to be some sacrifices to go with that 84 point Vader.

10 hours ago, Dr Zoidberg said:

Yeah, staple Juke to Rexler. He wants nothing else.

Lone Wolf looks good too.

2 hours ago, Zura said:

I loved defenders in 1.0, but i'm afraid that in era where passive mods are not longer a thing, focus+evade on 3 agility defender might become a NPE (it already was frustrating to my opponents) and many of my opponents will just refuse to play against defenders now that i don't have the option to drop x7 title. No matter how expensive they are, defenders will be infuruating to play against for many people if they keep 4k white.

Defenders have no linked actions.

If it's focusing, it's not boosting or barrel rolling, and if not's repositioning you can outmaneuver it. They only get the evade action if you fully complete a maneuver, which means they're vulnerable to being blocked.

Evade also no longer adds a result.

The Defender still has the white 4-k but also still has red turns. It's super predictable.

Let's not start overusing 'NPE' here. NPE refers to a game situation where there is absolutely nothing you can do to prevent or mitigate a move made by your opponent. There's a ton of counterplay available against Defenders. Especially if they're going to be so expensive you can only fit two of them in a list. Blocking, arc dodging, focused fire, high HP mobile arcs are all going to be effective against them.

If it's possible to get them all in a list, I'd love to see what Wedge, Corran and two Bandit Zs could do against a Defender list.

3 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Thane is also a LOT less tough. Rexler has 2 extra shields over him, and one extra HP, plus an extra green, plus a free evade, plus a white K turn to mean he doesn't have an off-turn where he can't get tokens on the joust.

Defenders are a LOT, LOT better. Though, I'm concerned that they're not enough better to justify the cost. I'm happy for 'not more than 2 in a list' to be the price point, but 72 for the generics (aka 36 for a naked Delta x7) seems excessive.

This. I expect Thane averages about one and a half uses of his ability per game. Maybe less. X-wings aren't tough, and if you're trying to proc Thane early, you need other high PS ships, which limits your squad size pretty seriously.

Per your second point, we only know that the base Defender is 72 points. We don't know what the base Defender is. It might not start at the I1 Delta. If it is, I'm still not sure it's bad, as it's the only readily available defensive token stack right now, but who knows.

3 hours ago, Zura said:

I loved defenders in 1.0, but i'm afraid that in era where passive mods are not longer a thing, focus+evade on 3 agility defender might become a NPE (it already was frustrating to my opponents) and many of my opponents will just refuse to play against defenders now that i don't have the option to drop x7 title. No matter how expensive they are, defenders will be infuruating to play against for many people if they keep 4k white.

We know from pre-fix Defenders that their basic statline, while impressive, is really not all that great for an expensive ship. It's the dice mods that keep them alive because they're not easily able to outmanoeuvre most ships due to their predictability. 2nd edition Defenders will be no different, expect they'll be even more expensive. You can block them if you can predict them and then you have an expensive ship with no mods just asking to be wiped off the board. They max out at IN5 so you'll still be able to get the drop on them with aces.

Defenders look good, but if your opponents consider them a NPE I think they may be misusing the term, or possibly using it as an excuse to not have to think properly about how to deal with the problem.

Just now, Biophysical said:

This. I expect Thane averages about one and a half uses of his ability per game. Maybe less. X-wings aren't tough, and if you're trying to proc Thane early, you need other high PS ships, which limits your squad size pretty seriously.

Per your second point, we only know that the base Defender is 72 points. We don't know what the base Defender is. It might not start at the I1 Delta. If it is, I'm still not sure it's bad, as it's the only readily available defensive token stack right now, but who knows.

We know it's a generic, and I'd presume that there will be one generic with a Talent and one without. SO the 72 points is presumably for the one without.

It;s definitely not the only defensive token stack, either. At the very least, Fat Falcons are very much still a thing. Lando pilot with 3PO crew and Falcon title, and Luke or Ezra gunner. Brobots. Etc.

11 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

92 points gets you Han Solo. Do you really think Rexler is worth more than Han? We know from test games that Supernatural+Afterburners+FCS+Cluster vader is approx 84 points. In no way is a naked Rexler better than that. If Rexler costs more than 80 he's not a good use of points.

I'm genuinely not sure you're right. Well, you're right that naked Rexler is not worth Vader costs, but built Rexler might be worth X more points than he ends up costing over 84 point Vader. That suggests cheap, good upgrades, which may or may not be a thing, depending on how they view upgrades in 2.0, but I could see it. The Defender is much tougher, has Boost, and probably a cannon slot. I used to have people tell me that there was no way a 50 point HLC Defender was worth 14 points more than pre Autothrusters Soontir, but it was a very, very different ship.

2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

We know it's a generic, and I'd presume that there will be one generic with a Talent and one without. SO the 72 points is presumably for the one without.

It;s definitely not the only defensive token stack, either. At the very least, Fat Falcons are very much still a thing. Lando pilot with 3PO crew and Falcon title, and Luke or Ezra gunner. Brobots. Etc.

I wasn't specific enough, I was thinking AGI 3 stack. I don't care much about AGI 1 stacks. What do Brobots get aside from a stack of two Calculates, which hardly is the same thing.

19 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I wasn't specific enough, I was thinking AGI 3 stack. I don't care much about AGI 1 stacks. What do Brobots get aside from a stack of two Calculates, which hardly is the same thing.

A hands a calculate over to an ally who has an evade.

Not to mention Force abilities plus evades generally. Soontir can also get focus/evade.

There are definitely ways, but they are definitely few and far between. Thus far.

If Hux/Fleet Officer exist, they will be a lot more common.

The fact that Thane so far is literally the only expose effect that actively states "look at the facedown cards" concerns me.

However, imps now have 2 ships that expose apparently, Zertik is still a thing in the TIE Adv.

2 hours ago, mazz0 said:

What's NPE?

Null Pointer Exception, they're the worst. Ugh.

17 minutes ago, Glucose98 said:

Null Pointer Exception, they're the worst. Ugh.

Nah, Array Index Out Of Bounds are the worst.

47 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

A hands a calculate over to an ally who has an evade.

Not to mention Force abilities plus evades generally. Soontir can also get focus/evade.

There are definitely ways, but they are definitely few and far between. Thus far.

If Hux/Fleet Officer exist, they will be a lot more common.

I understand your point, but I think it's fair to say that a ship that gets the extra actions on its own is substantially different than action lending mechanics that require additional ships. So I concede that there will be more double token ships than I initially suggested, but I think the Defender is in a different league than the others due to the ease of its token acquisition, AGI3, and 7 base hit points.

Night Beast is another.

But it does seem likely that 3 AGI/focus/evade will be pretty few and far between.

But it's equally a LOT less good than it was before.

2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Night Beast is another.

But it does seem likely that 3 AGI/focus/evade will be pretty few and far between.

But it's equally a LOT less good than it was before.

Hah, yeah Night Beast.

You think it's a lot less good? It's a little less good as you can't add the evade if you natty out, but otherwise it seems pretty much the same on a 3 dice ship. Tha difference probably matters more for 3 HP Soontir than it does for a 7 HP Defender, though. Defenders have typically been okay with letting one squeak through.

10 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Hah, yeah Night Beast.

You think it's a lot less good? It's a little less good as you can't add the evade if you natty out, but otherwise it seems pretty much the same on a 3 dice ship. Tha difference probably matters more for 3 HP Soontir than it does for a 7 HP Defender, though. Defenders have typically been okay with letting one squeak through.

Yup.

No longer able to block 4 is big, especially given that torps and missiles seem likely to be more common and well modified. There's a lot more token denial. There's a likely to be a lot more ships, generally, so being able to lean on 2 tokens for 2 incoming shots seems less good.

What's with saying less good? Why not just say it's worse...

14 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

Add Juke for some extra spice.

That'll be brutal. Probably brutally expensive, though. Probably near 100 points when all kitted out.

17 minutes ago, Hobojebus said:

What's with saying less good? Why not just say it's worse...

Because it's still good. Just less good.

is Juke still a thing? i havnt seen it around.

2 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

is Juke still a thing? i havnt seen it around.

Yep, it's a prize in the Store Championships. Same in 2nd Ed as in 1st.

Just now, Vineheart01 said:

is Juke still a thing? i havnt seen it around.

Here's the alt art

2 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

is Juke still a thing? i havnt seen it around.

Yup. Functionally identical with minor wording changes, small and medium ship only.

Nice.

Yeah probably expensive, considering defensive stacking isnt as easy (more than 3 def dice is really difficult w/o range or obstruction)

edit: Medium ships have access to juke?! Dude, brobots just got super happy lol