4 hours ago, Archlyte said:I don't know man I didn't re-watch the episode and was just thinking that they had both seen it. But at this point what are you trying to assert anyway? If it's real I think it's bad, if it's not real I think it's bad.
I am saying you are giving too much creedance to their claims. They are just powerful force entities. They are not the force. They just claimed they were. Some Jedi had met them and painted them in the temple on Lothal.
4 hours ago, Archlyte said:I don't know man I didn't re-watch the episode and was just thinking that they had both seen it. But at this point what are you trying to assert anyway? If it's real I think it's bad, if it's not real I think it's bad.
One must wonder, then, why you chose to initiate a discussion on the subject, if your response to others’ points was always going to be, “Why are you joining in a discussion I began on an open forum? I don’t like it, so shut up.”
2 hours ago, Daeglan said:
I am saying you are giving too much creedance to their claims. They are just powerful force entities. They are not the force. They just claimed they were. Some Jedi had met them and painted them in the temple on Lothal.
They were a vehicle for George Lucas to discuss the force.
2 hours ago, Daeglan said:They were a vehicle for George Lucas to discuss the force.
It seems to me that Lucas undergoes a shift, where "balance" originally was the Light Side, but eventually came to mean that the force wanted both the Dark and the Light to be equally powerful.
Actually I think that he was playing with the idea that Mortis was a living representation of the Galaxy , Balance is maintained by not trying to subvert the force to your own purpose, in this both Jedi and Sith used the force to alter things around them to suit themselves whether this was for selfish (or dark side) or for altruism (light side) reasons, the balance was attained by letting the force guide your actions instead of using your actions to guide the force to your own ends (good evil or otherwise)
3 hours ago, syrath said:Actually I think that he was playing with the idea that Mortis was a living representation of the Galaxy , Balance is maintained by not trying to subvert the force to your own purpose, in this both Jedi and Sith used the force to alter things around them to suit themselves whether this was for selfish (or dark side) or for altruism (light side) reasons, the balance was attained by letting the force guide your actions instead of using your actions to guide the force to your own ends (good evil or otherwise)
What I was trying to convey was that I think "balance" and "light side" used to by synonymous, but are not any more. Maybe they never were? Maybe by following the light side of the force, you automatically fought against balance?
On 6/22/2018 at 12:31 PM, Archlyte said:I see your point but basically it seems like you are saying that everyone has an opinion but they put out stuff so yeah. My assertion is that they made a bad move with this storyline when they could have done something different in its place that was better.
Good art pleases some and bothers others. If it was truly awful most would agree on that, but they don’t.
4 hours ago, TheSapient said:What I was trying to convey was that I think "balance" and "light side" used to by synonymous, but are not any more. Maybe they never were? Maybe by following the light side of the force, you automatically fought against balance?
The Jedi Council (and thus by extension the Jedi in general) apparently believed that bringing balance to the Force, as the prophecy foretold, would restore the ailing Light Side. I don’t know if they made the connection that being out of balance could apply to the Dark Side as well, but it’s fairly clear they assumed the Force being balanced would mean the Jedi being more powerful again.
9 hours ago, TheSapient said:What I was trying to convey was that I think "balance" and "light side" used to by synonymous, but are not any more. Maybe they never were? Maybe by following the light side of the force, you automatically fought against balance?
Light side being representative of balance and dark side being imbalance has been my view of it for a while, but yeah, it seems like things have shifted as you say.
16 hours ago, deraforia said:Light side being representative of balance and dark side being imbalance has been my view of it for a while, but yeah, it seems like things have shifted as you say.
Not necessarily. There is an interesting revelation in the most recent Poe Dameron comic, which takes place right after TLJ. Rey is studying the old Jedi texts, she got from Ahch To, and gets Threepio to translate one of the passages for her. IT has a very interesting line:
QuoteThe Force is the Light, the Force is the Dark. The Jedi choose the Light, for all it reveals.
The video's commentator also seems to misinterpret this to assume that the Jedi should go towards a more "grey" approach, but this is not the case. To me it's clear that the Light Side is the right path because it illuminates, and enlightens, shining forth like a beacon, bringing knowledge and understanding, and, ultimately peace . The Dark enshrouds and conceals , causing people to stumble and fall, causing mistrust, and enmity, and the ensuing chaos, war, and destruction that follows.
34 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:The video's commentator also seems to misinterpret this to assume that the Jedi should go towards a more "grey" approach, but this is not the case. To me it's clear that the Light Side is the right path because it illuminates, and enlightens, shining forth like a beacon, bringing knowledge and understanding, and, ultimately peace . The Dark enshrouds and conceals , causing people to stumble and fall, causing mistrust, and enmity, and the ensuing chaos, war, and destruction that follows.
I don't think this is entirely accurate. The Light may reveal much about life, but the Dark holds many incredible secrets, as we've seen throughout canon. Creating matter, manipulating life, and many other abilities. I think the comic implies that the original Jedi chose to focus on the Light as a school of thought, but acknowledged that other paths exist, while the Jedi of countless generations later were under the impression that theirs was the only path, as they were the state-sanctioned one. It's like if all law schools on the planet disappeared, forcing everyone to go to med school instead. Eventually, going into medicine would be the default, and anyone who wanted to practice law would be seen as strange and abnormal.
24 minutes ago, Nivrap said:I don't think this is entirely accurate. The Light may reveal much about life, but the Dark holds many incredible secrets, as we've seen throughout canon. Creating matter, manipulating life, and many other abilities. I think the comic implies that the original Jedi chose to focus on the Light as a school of thought, but acknowledged that other paths exist, while the Jedi of countless generations later were under the impression that theirs was the only path, as they were the state-sanctioned one. It's like if all law schools on the planet disappeared, forcing everyone to go to med school instead. Eventually, going into medicine would be the default, and anyone who wanted to practice law would be seen as strange and abnormal.
The key word there being secrets. The Dark Side is all about secrets and the hoarding of them, in order to atain more and more power, resulting in mistrust, envy, hate, war, and death.
The problem with the Prequel era Jedi view of their path being the only path, wasn't so much about their view on whether to use the Light only, or a more "balanced" use of Light and Dark. Rather, it was that they believed that their specific approach to even how the Light was used was the "only way". This is analogous to how different sects even within the same faith, each believe that their specific way of worship is the only "proper" way. This was the hubris of the Jedi. They felt that all other Light Side traditions needed to be converted to the "Jedi way". This is even stated in the book The Jedi Path .
Edited by Tramp GraphicsBalance isn't about being in the middle of the light and dark, take Qui Gon who was later seen to be "correct* with his way of thinking in that he followed he "living force".and tried to be guided by it , teachings werent supported by the Jedi and his ideals had him labelled grey, there is no doubt in my mind he wasn't a light side paragon, quite likely the Bendu as well, both were said to follow the "will of the force", similarly the Guardian of the Whills has their Mantra "all is as the force wills it" as if the force was capable of making a choice, given all that is it possible that both the Jedi and the Sith pervert the force by imposing their will on it instead of letting it flow through them and letting it make the decisions for you.
it could well be that the actions of the Bendu at the end of Season 3 Rebels was the "Will of the Force" or could have been Bend u defending himself and being a hypocrite.
1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:The key word there being secrets. The Dark Side is all about secrets and the hoarding of them, in order to atain more and more power, resulting in mistrust, envy, hate, war, and death.
And the Jedi don't keep their own secrets? They had an entire section of the archives locked off to everyone but Masters, which held the secrets Anakin needed to save Padme without teaming up with Palpatine. That's why their refusal to make him a Master elicited such an angry reaction from Anakin. Besides, secrets aren't necessarily a bad thing (which is why I don't hold that against the Jedi too much, just pointing out your logic). The Dark Side caves on Dagobah and Ahch-To both revealed the harsh truths that Yoda, Luke, and Rey needed to accept. That seems to be the nature of the Dark Side in recent canon: It ain't pretty, but it's brutally honest.
19 hours ago, Nivrap said:And the Jedi don't keep their own secrets? They had an entire section of the archives locked off to everyone but Masters, which held the secrets Anakin needed to save Padme without teaming up with Palpatine. That's why their refusal to make him a Master elicited such an angry reaction from Anakin. Besides, secrets aren't necessarily a bad thing (which is why I don't hold that against the Jedi too much, just pointing out your logic). The Dark Side caves on Dagobah and Ahch-To both revealed the harsh truths that Yoda, Luke, and Rey needed to accept. That seems to be the nature of the Dark Side in recent canon: It ain't pretty, but it's brutally honest.
The Jedi kept specific information that was dangerous for the uninitiated to know. Specifically Dark Side teachings. The supposed "information" Anakin "needed" to know to save Padme was a red herring. Palpatine simply used Anakin's fears against him to turn him. Had Anakin resisted Palpatine's seductions, Padme would not have died.
On 6/25/2018 at 2:02 PM, Eoen said:Good art pleases some and bothers others. If it was truly awful most would agree on that, but they don’t.
Ok that seems to be a way of saying that if it is popular it is good and I don't think that follows. I think that the potential was better than the specific in this case.
On 6/25/2018 at 7:57 AM, Daeglan said:They were a vehicle for George Lucas to discuss the force.
I think that is true, but I wish he hadn't done it
I feel that this was one of the things that as writers they shouldn't have answered the question. I get your point though.
53 minutes ago, Archlyte said:Ok that seems to be a way of saying that if it is popular it is good and I don't think that follows. I think that the potential was better than the specific in this case.
S/he didn't say that if something is popular, it is good. S/he said that if something was "truly awful", it would be broad agreement on its quality.
Honestly, what is the point of rephrasing a simple sentence to something different anyway. Was the sentence so vague that it couldn't be responded to directly?
Whether something is "awful" is a matter of personal taste, of course. But if we want to discuss the quality of something beyond personal taste, community taste is certainly an appropriate way of looking at it. It makes sense that you would prefer that something you didn't like had turned out differently. But the show runners don't care about you in particular. They measure their success by broader measures. Eon was rightly pointing out that your opinion alone should not be the deciding factor on whether certain art gets made.
3 hours ago, Archlyte said:Ok that seems to be a way of saying that if it is popular it is good and I don't think that follows. I think that the potential was better than the specific in this case.
No it’s an art school mantra. Good art inspires passion both negative and positive. Mediocre work doesn’t inspire passion, you move on rapidly; bad art everyone can see it’s bad and agrees it’s so.
On 6/25/2018 at 5:49 AM, Daeglan said:
I am saying you are giving too much creedance to their claims. They are just powerful force entities. They are not the force. They just claimed they were. Some Jedi had met them and painted them in the temple on Lothal.
Speaking of that painting that looks like Force Alchemy. It’s a magic painting.
On 6/28/2018 at 12:45 PM, Eoen said:No it’s an art school mantra. Good art inspires passion both negative and positive. Mediocre work doesn’t inspire passion, you move on rapidly; bad art everyone can see it’s bad and agrees it’s so.
Ok I guess it qualifies as good art by that definition but it fails my tests for what I feel is too much explanation (even by suggestion) of the Force. Personifying the force in any way is a terrible idea to me.
7 hours ago, Archlyte said:Ok I guess it qualifies as good art by that definition but it fails my tests for what I feel is too much explanation (even by suggestion) of the Force. Personifying the force in any way is a terrible idea to me.
I have long suspected George Lucas read Mdm Blavatsky the nineteenth century occultist who founded the Theosophical Society. She refers to the ”Mysterious Force” in her book the Secret Doctrine , which may just be her conception of God. I see Star Wars as a fellow traveler with Flash Gordon so it’s more a 1940’s sci-fi fantasy than other modern sci-fi.
So where is the Mother?
1 hour ago, HappyDaze said:So where is the Mother?
She’s in Luke Skywalker EU novels.
I see the "balance discussion" as the Jedi were correct in that "the light IS the balance" but where the Jedi were wrong is in how they pursued and maintained it. Centuries... millennia even... of meditations and traditions moved them incrementally away until , despite genuinely good intentions, through dogma they no longer served the Force as it needed.
Anakin/Vader tore the system down to allow the Force to eventually reassert itself in a more natural state.
Now ARGUABLY, this explains Rey.
Despite her upbringing in Jedi folklore, she exists outside of that system and the Force just flows through her making training incidental. A fine-tuning rather than an institutional metric of power and skill.