If you haven't watched the clone wars/rebels then WARNING there will be spoilers here about the episodes involving this subject.

For some reason that I cannot comprehend, the writers of the Clone Wars series felt that they needed to further define the Force. I don't know why they thought this was a good idea, but I feel like while what they did was mystically impressive, and had some connection to Campbell/Jung, it was a mistake.

The first thing I didn't like was that it wasn't a dream sequence as far as I can tell, and the events actually happened, much like the other crazy Tron sequence in Rebels where Time is beaten with a stick, stretched and pulled into plot putty, now a part of the setting.

The second point I didn't like was that they made an archetype for the Light, the Dark, and the Balance. These archetypes then acted, had names, and form, and said things; so they were crystallized into characters. For many people the light side now is a queen called the Daughter who died but lived on as an owl and some wolves.

George said that he is a spiritual person, and he believes in spirituality, so he wanted the Force to exist (in it's final form) as something that regardless of your individual beliefs or notions you could grasp and accept. By putting the Force in these forms, and I give them credit for trying to at least use architypes, they made the Force too specific.

You can say that the manifestations were simply in a form that Obi-wan and Anakin could readily relate to because they are both human, but the picture representations in Rebels kind of makes it clear that these were in fact the forms used by the Father, Daughter, and Son. The force is anthropomorphic, great.

Before the introduction of the Force architypes, the Force was a mysterious thing that could be used in your stories in a lot of different ways without intruding on any set definition. I personally liked the force as being this thing that has been studied for 30,000 years or so and has eluded comprehensive analysis. I liked that you can learn to be one with the Force, and have it help you do things and see things but you cannot make it into something concrete. Being a non-personified mystical energy field was perfect to me, because it allowed life in the mundane physical world of the galaxy to not have these definite answers and to have some mystery as to what was going on with it all. But now we know that a bad Male and a good Female were kept in check by a Neutral Father and that this was the form of the force as depicted by the archetypes.

Maybe you can tell me why it was better to have these characters instead of keeping the Force more undefined.

They aren’t the force, they themselves say they are force wielders. The force existed before them, and the musings of the Minister with Sabine about them are from the perspective of a non force users.

@Eoen is correct here. The Father, Son, and Daughter, were manifestations of the Force, specifically ancient Force Wielders, who embodied and personified the three main aspects of the Force, but were not themselves the Force .

Just pointing out, that storyline was a direct brain child of Lucas himself. While he didn’t write it, he was first and last word on that story.

And has been pointed out, they are not “the force” but metaphorical and literal manifestations.

I mean if you don’t like it, I wouldn’t worry. I’m not sure I did the literal elements of the clone wars story. But the whole thing pays off nicely in season 4 of rebels IMO, so I’m cool with there existence.

Just for supporting facts: The Father Databank entry

These three are force using beings that have taken on the embodiment of their respective aspect, and others can, and presumably will, eventually replace them.

That said, it dies reek of back pedaling on George's part. "Oh... Explaining my quasi-mystical power as a bunch of little animals in your blood didn't go over well... Ummm magic family! Yes that'll fix it!"

As metaphorical manifestations of the Force they must still be interpreted, leaving the viewer plenty of room to frame these episodes for themselves. One could interperet these manifestations as those that appeared to Yoda as a part of his "spirit quest" and presume another Jedi or force user may have experienced different manifestations. Ergo, this was not a commentary on the nature of the Force, but of how Yoda himself perceived the Force. It was what Yoda needed to realize there was more to the force than what Jedi dogma had attempted to reduce it to. This was at a time when he was realizing the Jedi themselves, through smug surety in their own dualistic understanding of the Force, had opened the door for all of the evil that was unfolding around them. And that was true, from a certain point of view. This followed on the heels of the tawdry moral failure of the Order surrounding Ahsoka Tano and her decision to leave the Order because they weren't living up to their own presumptive righteousness. He was beginning to question whether they were really as wise and infallible as they assumed they were Now, I found the metaphysics of these episodes a bit wonky, but as an psychoanalystic study of you Yoda's evolving perceptions of the force it was a neat piece of work. If you take it in that vein it doesn't introduce any problems whatsoever.

I should have said that I didn't do anything other than watching the episodes, so I didn't look up the rest of that stuff but was going on how the concepts affected me as a member of the audience. So these character were just force users who were in like a pocket dimension by themselves? What was the context of their lives and why did they seem to be simply symbols with no real story? Also I remember the brother seemed to want to be able to interface with the Galaxy, but needed some way to do like via Anakin. How is he not the Force Lucifer?

Also Ahsoka's Owl and the Wolves look like the Daughter down to the color scheme, and they do things like teleport people riding on them.

The Lothwolves have no direct connection to the Father, Son, and Daughter. They’re more “spirit guides” of Lothal than Mortis. Asoka’s “ owl ”, as you called it, has a certain connection to Asoka in particular.

18 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

I should have said that I didn't do anything other than watching the episodes, so I didn't look up the rest of that stuff but was going on how the concepts affected me as a member of the audience. So these character were just force users who were in like a pocket dimension by themselves? What was the context of their lives and why did they seem to be simply symbols with no real story? Also I remember the brother seemed to want to be able to interface with the Galaxy, but needed some way to do like via Anakin. How is he not the Force Lucifer?

Also Ahsoka's Owl and the Wolves look like the Daughter down to the color scheme, and they do things like teleport people riding on them.

Think of them more like Greek/Norse God’s in a way. They are simultaneously aspirations, warnings, and characters that don’t really exist. One could even question if the Morris clone wars arch even happened.

So if you don’t like them, then the story never happened. And I don’t mean dismiss it as “not canon” but who even knows about it? Anikin won’t be discussing it over tea with the PCs, I doubt old Ben would either.

But like on rebels, the iconography can permeate a temple or ancient site. You as the GM can decide what the figures represent. The son is not all bad, just passionate, head strong. A lot like Luke. The daughter made naive mistakes even though she thought she was doing the right thing, leading to her death. The father was not aware of how far his children drifted. Sounds like a mono myth to me.

i guess just don’t get bogged down in the actual clone wars story. I strongly recommend watching rebels season 4 as an example of how you can use them without necessarily using them.

But it’s rule zero: make it your own. Or don’t use it. Your call.

20 minutes ago, Thebearisdriving said:

Think of them more like Greek/Norse God’s in a way. They are simultaneously aspirations, warnings, and characters that don’t really exist. One could even question if the Morris clone wars arch even happened.

So if you don’t like them, then the story never happened. And I don’t mean dismiss it as “not canon” but who even knows about it? Anikin won’t be discussing it over tea with the PCs, I doubt old Ben would either.

But like on rebels, the iconography can permeate a temple or ancient site. You as the GM can decide what the figures represent. The son is not all bad, just passionate, head strong. A lot like Luke. The daughter made naive mistakes even though she thought she was doing the right thing, leading to her death. The father was not aware of how far his children drifted. Sounds like a mono myth to me.

i guess just don’t get bogged down in the actual clone wars story. I strongly recommend watching rebels season 4 as an example of how you can use them without necessarily using them.

But it’s rule zero: make it your own. Or don’t use it. Your call.

Thank you for this post I fond it to be interesting. Yes, and on the level that I do like them, it is as archetypes, but I just feel like the Galaxy isn't stronger as a story or setting for stories because of the inclusion of whatever these three icons are supposed to be. I think they should have made this something that actually happened deep in the past explicitly so that it had reality as it's backdrop, and had those characters perhaps draw on even more basic symbols. Even that to me would have been less preferable to just leaving it alone.

40 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The Lothwolves have no direct connection to the Father, Son, and Daughter. They’re more “spirit guides” of Lothal than Mortis. Asoka’s “ owl ”, as you called it, has a certain connection to Asoka in particular.

As just someone who watched it and didn't look up the official definitions they look the same, and all the sudden there is this magic wolf thing with them transporting them across the planet. Father Son Daughter = connected to the Force, Wolves are magical = Force, therefore FSD and Wolves = Force. Unless somehow they aren't supposed to be, which would make no sense to me.

26 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

As just someone who watched it and didn't look up the official definitions they look the same, and all the sudden there is this magic wolf thing with them transporting them across the planet. Father Son Daughter = connected to the Force, Wolves are magical = Force, therefore FSD and Wolves = Force. Unless somehow they aren't supposed to be, which would make no sense to me.

They are connected to the Force, but not in the same way as the “Mortis gods” are. The Lothwolves are more connected to the life and health of Lothal specifically, and that planet’s connection in the Force.

4 hours ago, Eoen said:

They aren’t the force, they themselves say they are force wielders. The force existed before them, and the musings of the Minister with Sabine about them are from the perspective of a non force users.

And they don't seem more powerful than the force Priestess either. Or Force Ghost Yoda for that matter.

As metaphorical manifestations of the Force they must still be interpreted, leaving the viewer plenty of room to frame these episodes for themselves. One could interperet these manifestations as those that appeared to Yoda as a part of his "spirit quest" and presume another Jedi or force user may have experienced different manifestations. Ergo, this was not a commentary on the nature of the Force, but of how Yoda himself perceived the Force. It was what Yoda needed to realize there was more to the force than what Jedi dogma had attempted to reduce it to.

Technical, Yoda did ask them and they answered that they are dead persons. Force Ghosts like he himself became one. Not manifestations of the force, but force wielders able to keep their conscious together when becoming one with the force. Though as we have seen this gives tremendous power and little desire to actually use it.

2 hours ago, Archlyte said:

I should have said that I didn't do anything other than watching the episodes, so I didn't look up the rest of that stuff but was going on how the concepts affected me as a member of the audience. So these character were just force users who were in like a pocket dimension by themselves? What was the context of their lives and why did they seem to be simply symbols with no real story? Also I remember the brother seemed to want to be able to interface with the Galaxy, but needed some way to do like via Anakin. How is he not the Force Lucifer?

Also Ahsoka's Owl and the Wolves look like the Daughter down to the color scheme, and they do things like teleport people riding on them.

They are Celestials. Basically the first ones of the star wars galaxy, if you get that Babylon 5 term. And those 3 in particular are just a dysfunctional family, with the children both falling out of balance. The Son did not need Anakin as his avatar in particular, but he needed the Chosen One to decide his conflict with his sister to get finally out of the pocket dimension.

1 hour ago, SEApocalypse said:

And they don't seem more powerful than the force Priestess either. Or Force Ghost Yoda for that matter.

Technical, Yoda did ask them and they answered that they are dead persons. Force Ghosts like he himself became one. Not manifestations of the force, but force wielders able to keep their conscious together when becoming one with the force. Though as we have seen this gives tremendous power and little desire to actually use it.

Which means their own commentary on the force is subjective to their past-life experience and interpretations. Older, wiser, more bound-up perhaps, but even more literally representative "spirit guides" on Yoda's own journey. I'm not convinced one could not reasonably interpret this in a psychoanaltic context as being about Yoda's evolution of understanding the force rather than a definitive commentary on the force itself.

1 hour ago, SEApocalypse said:

They are Celestials. Basically the first ones of the star wars galaxy, if you get that Babylon 5 term. And those 3 in particular are just a dysfunctional family, with the children both falling out of balance. The Son did not need Anakin as his avatar in particular, but he needed the Chosen One to decide his conflict with his sister to get finally out of the pocket dimension.

Why did we need this? Someone decided that it was better to have a pantheon of Force Demi-Gods who nobody worships but still need to be there for some reason. We couldn't get Dark Side/Light Side/Balance without these characters? Also is his escape supposed to be literal or figurative? What is he, Snoke?

12 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

Why did we need this? Someone decided that it was better to have a pantheon of Force Demi-Gods who nobody worships but still need to be there for some reason.

"Someone" = Lucas.

28 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

Why did we need this?

It's fiction. We don't NEED any of it in particular. That's an entirely useless approach to media.

1 hour ago, Archlyte said:

Why did we need this? Someone decided that it was better to have a pantheon of Force Demi-Gods who nobody worships but still need to be there for some reason. We couldn't get Dark Side/Light Side/Balance without these characters? Also is his escape supposed to be literal or figurative? What is he, Snoke?

It’s a lense to view things through. Almost everything in star wars is from a certain point of view right? So this is another.

Maybe the son is snoke. Would explain why he’s so enamoured with Vader. But more so, does that matter? Whether he’s the son, the reincarnation of uncle Owen skywalker, or Mace Windu’s remaining left foot, snoke is snoke, and his purpose was to challenge Kylo. Similarly in the mortis series the entities were there to challenge the Jedi and what they think of as real.

I wouldn’t sweat defining the truth in all of this. I would sweat what makes a compelling story. Which of course YMMV.

The Force is vast. It contains multitudes. Any one explanation will only offer a glimpse of true understanding.

23 minutes ago, Thebearisdriving said:

It’s a lense to view things through. Almost everything in star wars is from a certain point of view right? So this is another.

Maybe the son is snoke. Would explain why he’s so enamoured with Vader. But more so, does that matter? Whether he’s the son, the reincarnation of uncle Owen skywalker, or Mace Windu’s remaining left foot, snoke is snoke, and his purpose was to challenge Kylo. Similarly in the mortis series the entities were there to challenge the Jedi and what they think of as real.

I wouldn’t sweat defining the truth in all of this. I would sweat what makes a compelling story. Which of course YMMV.

Well those are good points but I feel like in the end what you are saying is that there's no harm done if you ignore it. I feel like this is official writing succumbing to the worst of what the EU and RPG people produced during the dark years. Every nut and bolt of every thing explained and thus constrained in some form that they felt was really cool in the moment no doubt, but made for awkward photos in the family album later on in life. There are so many ways they cold have depicted the questioning you spoke of that would have been less intrusive than this, and might have even redeemed the prequels a bit.

But imagine for a second what it would have been like if the Mortis episodes had not happened, and then Rebels had to resolve it's final season in some way that did not rely on producing through the looking glass Force antics. Like in the Hobbit or Lord of the Rings movies where some addition of the modern screen writers was a minor annoyance in the first movie, but had to be paid off in later movies (via expanding importance and screen time) and threw the whole story off.

If they had been true archetypes it would have been even better, cause it turns out that what they were very important nobodies.

I dont think theu contrain anything. They are just powerful force spirits that were in a pocket dimension for a while.

Dont interpret them as somentruth. They are falible.

2 hours ago, Archlyte said:

Well those are good points but I feel like in the end what you are saying is that there's no harm done if you ignore it. I feel like this is official writing succumbing to the worst of what the EU and RPG people produced during the dark years. Every nut and bolt of every thing explained and thus constrained in some form that they felt was really cool in the moment no doubt, but made for awkward photos in the family album later on in life. There are so many ways they cold have depicted the questioning you spoke of that would have been less intrusive than this, and might have even redeemed the prequels a bit.

But imagine for a second what it would have been like if the Mortis episodes had not happened, and then Rebels had to resolve it's final season in some way that did not rely on producing through the looking glass Force antics. Like in the Hobbit or Lord of the Rings movies where some addition of the modern screen writers was a minor annoyance in the first movie, but had to be paid off in later movies (via expanding importance and screen time) and threw the whole story off.

If they had been true archetypes it would have been even better, cause it turns out that what they were very important nobodies.

Ironically the son, the daughter and the father are all small fries compared to the mother. And it is indeed based on the EU and some well received RPG game. ?
In a deleted scene Darth Revan was supposed to a big guy as ghost/spectre. they decided later against this version and went with a specter in the form of darth bane.

I'd just like to point out that it could very well have been a shared vision through the Force in the Clone Wars arc. The characters see a bright light, are incapacitated and then experience the events of the episodes. When they leave, they experience the same light and incapacitation. They seemingly weren't gone for any large length of time and Mortis itself seemed to have never really been there in the first place.

I mean it's that, or it was all real and taking place in another part of time and space. It's more possible since Rebels that it was a real place and real events that took place, considering Ahsoka believes that she owes the Daughter her life. Also more possible since Rebels introduced the concept of the world between worlds.

2 hours ago, GroggyGolem said:

I'd just like to point out that it could very well have been a shared vision through the Force in the Clone Wars arc. The characters see a bright light, are incapacitated and then experience the events of the episodes. When they leave, they experience the same light and incapacitation. They seemingly weren't gone for any large length of time and Mortis itself seemed to have never really been there in the first place.

I mean it's that, or it was all real and taking place in another part of time and space. It's more possible since Rebels that it was a real place and real events that took place, considering Ahsoka believes that she owes the Daughter her life. Also more possible since Rebels introduced the concept of the world between worlds.

Yeah that's true, and I would take some solace from this if Rebels hadn't decided to do the who world between worlds thing. As usual, good stuff from the GroggyGolem