Star Wars isn't taking from the Nazis when it comes to the Empire so much as it's borrowing from the visual imagery of German filmmaker Leni Riefenstahl. The Empire itself borrows the visual language of dictatorships throughout the 20th century as well as the Roman Empire.

If you read a more modern accounting of WW2, Nazi Germany wasn't the military powerhouse Hollywood portrays it as. Not to downplay the genocide and the other atrocities but Hitler failed forward quite a bit and Europe, post WW1, wasn't in much shape to oppose him. Also, Nazism was an ideology and the Galactic Empire and the First Order don't have an ideology, other than "control everything" and "wear black."

Duty, honor, and order isn't an ideology?!

32 minutes ago, Concise Locket said:

Star Wars isn't taking from the Nazis when it comes to the Empire so much as it's borrowing from the visual imagery of German filmmaker Leni Riefenstahl. The Empire itself borrows the visual language of dictatorships throughout the 20th century as well as the Roman Empire.

If you read a more modern accounting of WW2, Nazi Germany wasn't the military powerhouse Hollywood portrays it as. Not to downplay the genocide and the other atrocities but Hitler failed forward quite a bit and Europe, post WW1, wasn't in much shape to oppose him. Also, Nazism was an ideology and the Galactic Empire and the First Order don't have an ideology, other than "control everything" and "wear black." 

While we don't know the exact motives of the Emperor beyond UNLIMITED POWER!, the empire is pretty clearly based on fascist ideals regarding militarism, control of mass media, opression of any form of opposition, discipline, subjugation of the self for the state and creating a common identity via exclusion of certain populaces. So we can limit that to fascist dicatorships throughout the 20th century, and of those, Nazi Germany is the one that stands out the most.

(And of course, the First Order with their ideas of "The Galactic Empire wasn't all bad, you know...?" is almost a perfect analogue for neo-nazism.)

2 hours ago, Concise Locket said:

Also, Nazism was an ideology and the Galactic Empire and the First Order don't have an ideology, other than "control everything" and "wear black."

Quote

In order to ensure our security and continuing stability, the Republic will be reorganized into the first Galactic Empire, for a safe and secure society, which I assure you will last for ten thousand years. An Empire that will continue to be ruled by this august body and a sovereign ruler chosen for life. An Empire ruled by the majority, ruled by a new constitution

By bringing the entire galaxy under one law, one language, and the enlightened guidance of one individual, the corruption that plagued the Republic in its later years will never take root. Regional governors will eliminate the bureaucracy that allowed the Separatist movement to grow unchecked. A strong and growing military will ensure the rule of law… Under the Empire's New Order, our most cherished beliefs will be safeguarded. We will defend our ideals by force of arms. We will give no ground to our enemies and will stand together against attacks from within or without. Let the enemies of the Empire take heed: Those who challenge Imperial resolve will be destroyed

I mean, that's Chancellor Palpatine's description of it. The ideology of the Empire was explicitly to restore peace and order to a corrupt and divided galaxy through strength and homogeneity.

Changing back to the original topic somewhat for what's now cannon:

I've only seen the movie once, but did anyone notice female infantry? I thought I might have seen some aside from Val, but I can't be sure until I re-watch it. That would be cool since then it'd be cannon along side storm troopers when I noticed it in ep7 (mentioned by me previously Here )

FWIW, female troopers were canon as far back as the Battlefront: Twilight Company novel.

13 hours ago, Hinklemar said:

FWIW, female troopers were canon as far back as the Battlefront: Twilight Company novel.

Well that is interesting. I guess I was only looking at the films canonization.

14 hours ago, Hinklemar said:

FWIW, female troopers were canon as far back as the Battlefront: Twilight Company novel.

14 minutes ago, ThreeAM said:

Well that is interesting. I guess I was only looking at the films canonization.

We saw some in Rebels, too. Including a female death trooper.

20 hours ago, Cifer said:

While we don't know the exact motives of the Emperor beyond UNLIMITED POWER!, the empire is pretty clearly based on fascist ideals regarding militarism, control of mass media, opression of any form of opposition, discipline, subjugation of the self for the state and creating a common identity via exclusion of certain populaces. So we can limit that to fascist dicatorships throughout the 20th century, and of those, Nazi Germany is the one that stands out the most.

(And of course, the First Order with their ideas of "The Galactic Empire wasn't all bad, you know...?" is almost a perfect analogue for neo-nazism.)

True fascism runs on:

• Powerful and continuing nationalism (We never saw Imperials boasting about how great the Empire was and how blessed they were to be born into the Empire. They just stood around and sneered like posh British people eyeballing Cockney chimney sweeps.)
• Disdain for the recognition of human rights (Check)
• Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause (the Separatists were defeated and the Emperor was always crowing about how insignificant the Rebellion was, so who does the Empire tell its citizens to be afraid of?)
• Supremacy of the military (Check)
• Rampant sexism (Eh... not really. While we didn't see any Imperial women we didn't see that many Rebel females either.)
• Controlled mass media (Check)
• Obsession with national security (During the Clone Wars, yes, but again, not really a driving cause for either the Empire or the New Order.)
• Religion and government are intertwined (If anything, the Empire abolished religion by killing off the Jedi and Force users.)
• Corporate power is protected (Hard to say. In the spin-off material, corporations that stepped out of line got nationalized pretty quickly).
• Labor power is suppressed (Do droids even count?)
• Disdain for intellectuals and the arts (Emperor Palpatine sure liked his statues, opera, and Sith art and there are plenty of rich patrons of the arts shown in spin-off material.)
• Obsession with crime and punishment (It's hard to be obsessed with crime and punishment when the propaganda says the Empire is perfect.)
• Rampant cronyism and corruption (Check)
• Fraudulent elections (They don't exist anymore.)

Four out of 14 characteristics doesn't make me think the Empire or the New Order is actually fascistic. Brutal, authoritarian, and evil, yes, but not fascistic.

19 hours ago, Talkie Toaster said:

I mean, that's Chancellor Palpatine's description of it. The ideology of the Empire was explicitly to restore peace and order to a corrupt and divided galaxy through strength and homogeneity.

That's a business plan, not an ideology. What's the end goal of the Empire or the First Order? What are they striving for? Order and "rule of law" is a means to an end, not the end itself.

The United States has lots of different political ideologies and they all include order and rule of law but that's not the end goal for any of them.

1 hour ago, Concise Locket said:

True fascism runs on:

• Powerful and continuing nationalism (We never saw Imperials boasting about how great the Empire was and how blessed they were to be born into the Empire. They just stood around and sneered like posh British people eyeballing Cockney chimney sweeps.) -> Does the Empire strike you as non-nationalist? Large military parades, sigil-spamming all around, centralization constantly happening?
• Disdain for the recognition of human rights (Check)
• Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause (the Separatists were defeated and the Emperor was always crowing about how insignificant the Rebellion was, so who does the Empire tell its citizens to be afraid of?) -> Check out "Star Wars Propaganda" - it's a great book and shows that yes, the Empire absolutely loves its scapegoats. The Emperor himself may say the rebellion is insignificant, but the propaganda plays up their threat in order to justify for example the ISB's actions.
• Supremacy of the military (Check)
• Rampant sexism (Eh... not really. While we didn't see any Imperial women we didn't see that many Rebel females either.) -> Yeah, that one's... a little problematic. Of course, it builds onto our world's history, where most archaic societies had strict gender separation and fascists tend to go for "traditional values". Star Wars theoretically postulated a mostly emancipated society, even though it didn't actually show one until at best TFA, so this one isn't really applicable.
• Controlled mass media (Check)
• Obsession with national security (During the Clone Wars, yes, but again, not really a driving cause for either the Empire or the New Order.) -> What? ISB, Compnor, inquisitors?
• Religion and government are intertwined (If anything, the Empire abolished religion by killing off the Jedi and Force users.) -> I'd consider the abolishment a form of intertwining - the state meddling in affairs of religion. In addition, Nazi Germany mostly kept away from the church, as did to my knowledge Mussolini's Italy.
• Corporate power is protected (Hard to say. In the spin-off material, corporations that stepped out of line got nationalized pretty quickly). -> And yet, those that toed the line were greatly rewarded in slave labor, just like Siemens was.
• Labor power is suppressed (Do droids even count?) -> Firstly, yes, droids count - Imperials have a far more stringent memory wipe policy than the rest of the galaxy. Secondly, what do you think happens when workers of a factory the Empire deems critical go on strike?
• Disdain for intellectuals and the arts (Emperor Palpatine sure liked his statues, opera, and Sith art and there are plenty of rich patrons of the arts shown in spin-off material.) -> I think this point is misleading in general. Taking a look at our fascists on Earth, they don't dislike art - see Riefenstahl and Speer. Wagner's operas were popular among nazis. They dislike art that explores themes the state doesn't like. And the art-loving Thrawn is depicted as an oddity among his peers.
• Obsession with crime and punishment (It's hard to be obsessed with crime and punishment when the propaganda says the Empire is perfect.) -> Again, not true. Looking at depictions of imperial society (which we barely see in the movies) in Rebels, it's quite easy to get locked up for something.
• Rampant cronyism and corruption (Check)
• Fraudulent elections (They don't exist anymore.) -> A New Hope establishes that the Senate is just now being disbanded. Before that, it still existed, but had very little power to actually do something.

Four out of 14 characteristics doesn't make me think the Empire or the New Order is actually fascistic. Brutal, authoritarian, and evil, yes, but not fascistic.

(Posting my opinions into your quote for simplicity's sake)

I think it appeals to me to make a distinction between the Sith leader from the actual Empire a little bit. I feel like the ancient Sith Empire had that separation between the Empire and the Sith to some degree in some portrayals and I like that, much like the idea of not having Vader formally in the chain of command. I'm not talking about moral responsibility, just the actual structure and appearance.

If the Empire was going to function at all it needed to have positives as well as negatives so that there would be some tension between those who wanted to throw it off and those who felt it was making their lives seem better and more important. The Emperor is a demonic creature, almost a caricature of the devil, and lends that aspect to the Galaxy under his dominion, but most of the other individuals involved with the Empire are not on the Force level story tier but are on the more mundane level tier where real considerations are less easy to ignore. The Demon doesn't seem to want it to be known that he is what he is, as I have never seen him referred to openly by the populace and military as "Our Beloved Sith Master" or anything like that.

The Empire would have to function economically, would probably be human-centric because they are either a majority of the population or that solidifying their societies provided an advantage, and would also have to function militarily within the limits of psychology such as it can be applied in a space fantasy setting. The humans in Star Wars seem to be like us (except for a lack of fear of heights lol) and so I don't think it's unreasonable that they have the same drives and needs in many respects. The Empire would need to have some sort of positive message, but the lack of an ideology would be both a strength and a weakness. A Strength in that ideologies are simplistic approaches, and a weakness in that Ideologies are the fast food of political thought and are an effective way to sway populations.

On ‎6‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 8:31 AM, Concise Locket said:

True fascism runs on:

• Powerful and continuing nationalism (We never saw Imperials boasting about how great the Empire was and how blessed they were to be born into the Empire. They just stood around and sneered like posh British people eyeballing Cockney chimney sweeps.)
• Disdain for the recognition of human rights (Check)
• Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause (the Separatists were defeated and the Emperor was always crowing about how insignificant the Rebellion was, so who does the Empire tell its citizens to be afraid of?)
• Supremacy of the military (Check)
• Rampant sexism (Eh... not really. While we didn't see any Imperial women we didn't see that many Rebel females either.)
• Controlled mass media (Check)
• Obsession with national security (During the Clone Wars, yes, but again, not really a driving cause for either the Empire or the New Order.)
• Religion and government are intertwined (If anything, the Empire abolished religion by killing off the Jedi and Force users.)
• Corporate power is protected (Hard to say. In the spin-off material, corporations that stepped out of line got nationalized pretty quickly).
• Labor power is suppressed (Do droids even count?)
• Disdain for intellectuals and the arts (Emperor Palpatine sure liked his statues, opera, and Sith art and there are plenty of rich patrons of the arts shown in spin-off material.)
• Obsession with crime and punishment (It's hard to be obsessed with crime and punishment when the propaganda says the Empire is perfect.)
• Rampant cronyism and corruption (Check)
• Fraudulent elections (They don't exist anymore.)

Four out of 14 characteristics doesn't make me think the Empire or the New Order is actually fascistic. Brutal, authoritarian, and evil, yes, but not fascistic.

Lol I like how the Elections one was invalid because he got rid of them. That made me laugh appreciatively. I also like how you mentioned the religion aspect. Can't have beings worshipping anyone but Palpatine.

On 6/27/2018 at 8:35 AM, Concise Locket said:

That's a business plan, not an ideology. What's the end goal of the Empire or the First Order? What are they striving for? Order and "rule of law" is a means to an end, not the end itself.

The United States has lots of different political ideologies and they all include order and rule of law but that's not the end goal for any of them.

Often the end is self-evident. In the case of Palpatine, power.

On 6/27/2018 at 10:35 AM, Concise Locket said:

That's a business plan, not an ideology. What's the end goal of the Empire or the First Order? What are they striving for? Order and "rule of law" is a means to an end, not the end itself.

The United States has lots of different political ideologies and they all include order and rule of law but that's not the end goal for any of them.

I would actually argue that some political ideologies do have rule of law as a goal - or rather, the goal is a society that is orderly (or more orderly than the present is perceived to be), and once achieved the goal is maintaining that society. The difference, I think, between order being a means and an end is semantic. Of course, even if you couldn't have order as a goal for some reason, that wouldn't anyone from trying to have it as a goal. Just because a goal is irrational or logically impossible doesn't mean people won't hold it as an objective.

Of course the problem with ascribing fascistic traits to the Empire is that they are largely retroactive. When Star Wars came out, the Empire was just generically evil, with no more explanation than that given to a cartoon villain. The most we really see is the Emperor's off-screen dissolution of the Senate, and Tarkin destroying Alderaan. Otherwise, most of the sense of evil that a viewer gets is from the Empire's visual aesthetic and the personalities of its officers. Even the whole racist and sexist traits of the Empire is not even hinted at in the movies, and was likely invented after the fact to explain the Empire's utter homogeneity in its officers (although in the first movie the Rebellion was just as white, male (other than Leia), and human). This means that to really compare the Empire to fascism (as opposed to a simple military junta, which is what it was in the very early stages of the franchise's life), you need to look in the EU, which can be a bit... scattershot.

On 6/28/2018 at 10:58 PM, Vondy said:

Often the end is self-evident. In the case of Palpatine, power.

Also, this. Of course, power is the kind of goal that can be both achieved, and lost. Once Palpatine came into power, his motivation was from gaining power, but the fear of losing it. Keeping power the kind of objective that can only be failed, never permanently achieved, so of course it demands constant action to maintain.

8 minutes ago, Dusk Raven said:

I would actually argue that some political ideologies do have rule of law as a goal - or rather, the goal is a society that is orderly (or more orderly than the present is perceived to be), and once achieved the goal is maintaining that society. The difference, I think, between order being a means and an end is semantic. Of course, even if you couldn't have order as a goal for some reason, that wouldn't anyone from trying to have it as a goal. Just because a goal is irrational or logically impossible doesn't mean people won't hold it as an objective.

Of course the problem with ascribing fascistic traits to the Empire is that they are largely retroactive. When Star Wars came out, the Empire was just generically evil, with no more explanation than that given to a cartoon villain. The most we really see is the Emperor's off-screen dissolution of the Senate, and Tarkin destroying Alderaan. Otherwise, most of the sense of evil that a viewer gets is from the Empire's visual aesthetic and the personalities of its officers. Even the whole racist and sexist traits of the Empire is not even hinted at in the movies, and was likely invented after the fact to explain the Empire's utter homogeneity in its officers (although in the first movie the Rebellion was just as white, male (other than Leia), and human). This means that to really compare the Empire to fascism (as opposed to a simple military junta, which is what it was in the very early stages of the franchise's life), you need to look in the EU, which can be a bit... scattershot.

Also, this. Of course, power is the kind of goal that can be both achieved, and lost. Once Palpatine came into power, his motivation was from gaining power, but the fear of losing it. Keeping power the kind of objective that can only be failed, never permanently achieved, so of course it demands constant action to maintain.

Not true. George Lucas has gone on record saying that the Empire was heavily based upon Nazi Germany, from how Palpatine rose to power, even down to the Uniforms and calling the Imperial armored soldiers, Stormtroopers . Check out the book Star Wars: the Magic of Myth . The First Order has also been stated to be deliberately based upon Neo-Nazis. It's not hindsight, it's fully intentional by the Lucasfilm.

28 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Not true. George Lucas has gone on record saying that the Empire was heavily based upon Nazi Germany, from how Palpatine rose to power, even down to the Uniforms and calling the Imperial armored soldiers, Stormtroopers . Check out the book Star Wars: the Magic of Myth . The First Order has also been stated to be deliberately based upon Neo-Nazis. It's not hindsight, it's fully intentional by the Lucasfilm.

I am aware of the uniform design and of course, the origin of the Stormtrooper name. My main point is that beyond aesthetics that's not obvious in the movies themselves, and there's not really enough on the Empire in the movies themselves to say how similar they are in practice. I'm also aware of the inspiration for the current First Order. But, as someone who follows the Death of the Author school of thought to some extent, I'm primarily concerned with how things actually express themselves in the media. As a result, I'm not sure what I said was actually untrue within the context of the movies themselves.

Also, to qualify the "military junta" comment - the prologue of the novelization of the original Star Wars novelization, written with the aid of some of Lucus' notes, gives insight into what the world of Star Wars was originally imagined to be:

Quote

ANOTHER galaxy, another time.

The Old Republic was the Republic of legend, greater than distance or time. No need to note where it was or whence it came, only to know that… it was the Republic.

Once, under the wise rule of the Senate and the protection of the Jedi Knights, the Republic throve and grew. But as often happens when wealth and power pass beyond the admirable and attain the awesome, there appear those evil ones who have greed to match.

So it was with the Republic at its height. Like the greatest of trees, able to withstand any external attack, the Republic rotted from within though the danger was not visible from outside.

Aided and abetted by restless, power-hungry individuals within the government, and the massive organs of commerce, the ambitious Senator Palpatine caused himself to be elected President of the Republic. He promised to reunite the disaffected among the people and to restore the remembered glory of the Republic.

Once secure in office he declared himself Emperor, shutting himself away from the populace. Soon he was controlled by the very assistants and boot-lickers he had appointed to high office, and the cries of the people for justice did not reach his ears.

Having exterminated through treachery and deception the Jedi Knights, guardians of justice in the galaxy, the Imperial governors and bureaucrats prepared to institute a reign of terror among the disheartened worlds of the galaxy. Many used the imperial forces and the name of the increasingly isolated Emperor to further their own personal ambitions.

But a small number of systems rebelled at these new outrages. Declaring themselves opposed to the New Order they began the great battle to restore the Old Republic.

From the beginning they were vastly outnumbered by the systems held in thrall by the Emperor. In those first dark days it seemed certain the bright flame of resistance would be extinguished before it could cast the light of new truth across a galaxy of oppressed and beaten peoples…

It's a bit different from the current world - it seems originally there was no ideology beyond long-broken promises, and the Empire (and the Emperor himself) were tools used by ambitious military officers and governors to achieve and keep power.

1 minute ago, Dusk Raven said:

I am aware of the uniform design and of course, the origin of the Stormtrooper name. My main point is that beyond aesthetics that's not obvious in the movies themselves, and there's not really enough on the Empire in the movies themselves to say how similar they are in practice. I'm also aware of the inspiration for the current First Order. But, as someone who follows the Death of the Author school of thought to some extent, I'm primarily concerned with how things actually express themselves in the media. As a result, I'm not sure what I said was actually untrue.

But aren't aesthetics an important point of storytelling in themselves? Mad Max Fury Road has less than 4000 words of dialogue and we still get a pretty clear sense of the world it plays in.

Just now, Dusk Raven said:

I am aware of the uniform design and of course, the origin of the Stormtrooper name. My main point is that beyond aesthetics that's not obvious in the movies themselves, and there's not really enough on the Empire in the movies themselves to say how similar they are in practice. I'm also aware of the inspiration for the current First Order. But, as someone who follows the Death of the Author school of thought to some extent, I'm primarily concerned with how things actually express themselves in the media. As a result, I'm not sure what I said was actually untrue within the context of the movies themselves.

Also, to qualify the "military junta" comment - the prologue of the novelization of the original Star Wars novelization, written with the aid of some of Lucus' notes, gives insight into what the world of Star Wars was originally imagined to be:

It's a bit different from the current world - it seems originally there was no ideology beyond long-broken promises, and the Empire (and the Emperor himself) were tools used by ambitious military officers and governors to achieve and keep power.

I disagree. However, that may be because I'm possibly older, My grandfather was in WWII, in the Pacific, and one of my Grandmother's brothers died over Germany during the war. But watching the original Trilogy, even back when they first came out, I could clearly see the Nazi correlation, not just in the uniforms, but in how the Empire was run, and this was deliberate on Lucas' part.

On 6/27/2018 at 11:31 AM, Concise Locket said:

• Disdain for intellectuals and the arts (Emperor Palpatine sure liked his statues, opera, and Sith art and there are plenty of rich patrons of the arts shown in spin-off material.)
• Obsession with crime and punishment (It's hard to be obsessed with crime and punishment when the propaganda says the Empire is perfect.)

I have to agree with Cifer's additions to the list of Fascism above. But these 2 spoke to me as well. If there was disdain for the arts, why was so much of the Jewish People's artwork secreted away by the ruling class of the Nazi party? And yes propaganda says the Empire is perfect but that never stopped them from punishing those not of the Empire. It seems to be a general rule of thumb that those in power think to be above the laws they create, it happens in today's society no matter whether your nation is Fascist, Republic, Socialist, or Communist.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I disagree. However, that may be because I'm possibly older, My grandfather was in WWII, in the Pacific, and one of my Grandmother's brothers died over Germany during the war. But watching the original Trilogy, even back when they first came out, I could clearly see the Nazi correlation, not just in the uniforms, but in how the Empire was run, and this was deliberate on Lucas' part.

This I definitely agree with. Even as a child I could see the resemblance between WWII Germany and the Empire.

11 hours ago, Cifer said:

But aren't aesthetics an important point of storytelling in themselves? Mad Max Fury Road has less than 4000 words of dialogue and we still get a pretty clear sense of the world it plays in.

11 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I disagree. However, that may be because I'm possibly older, My grandfather was in WWII, in the Pacific, and one of my Grandmother's brothers died over Germany during the war. But watching the original Trilogy, even back when they first came out, I could clearly see the Nazi correlation, not just in the uniforms, but in how the Empire was run, and this was deliberate on Lucas' part.

I thought the discussion was about ideological policies, not aesthetics. I'm not disputing the aesthetic associations, which is why I haven't actually disagreed with them at all - or talked about them. What I'm trying to say is in terms of policy - in terms of how the Empire affects the lives of its citizens - the original trilogy doesn't seem to have much to show. If there are such indications in the movies that I've missed, do let me know... but to me, the Empire was a very generic sort of evil. This isn't to say that the Empire didn't resemble the Nazis or their style, only that I couldn't see anything uniquely Nazi about them.

Of course, I'm sure the comparison would have been more obvious to people in the 70s...

9 hours ago, ThreeBFour said:

I have to agree with Cifer's additions to the list of Fascism above. But these 2 spoke to me as well. If there was disdain for the arts, why was so much of the Jewish People's artwork secreted away by the ruling class of the Nazi party? And yes propaganda says the Empire is perfect but that never stopped them from punishing those not of the Empire. It seems to be a general rule of thumb that those in power think to be above the laws they create, it happens in today's society no matter whether your nation is Fascist, Republic, Socialist, or Communist.

Hypocrisy is often the order of the day when it comes to the corrupt, or to the extreme.

2 hours ago, Dusk Raven said:

I thought the discussion was about ideological policies, not aesthetics. 

Films use aesthetics as shorthand for story and setting. In a perpetually clinical environment, I don't have to say "Boy, these guys love their order." If I have the imprisoned hero hanging between two pillars, arms outstretched, with an inexplicable spotlight highlighting his pose, I don't have to say "See, he's like Jesus!" And when the enemy is putting on the reich, that's often an abbreviation for "They don't just dress like Nazis."

I mean, the only interactions we see between the Empire and civilians in the OT are:

- Murdering Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen and burning down their house

- Destroying a Sandcrawler

- Guards asking people for their papers

- Annihilating an entire planet

- Annexing a peaceful city

They dress like fascists, are racially homogenous in a setting that's even *more* diverse than reality, and engage in mass murder and occupation, but because we don't directly see a copy of Mein Space-Kampf where they blame the Clone Wars on Toydarians they're not *actually* fascist? There's death of the author, and there's wilfully ignoring themes that are clear in the text.

5 hours ago, Talkie Toaster said:

I mean, the only interactions we see between the Empire and civilians in the OT are:

- Murdering Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen and burning down their house

- Destroying a Sandcrawler

- Guards asking people for their papers

- Annihilating an entire planet

- Annexing a peaceful city

They dress like fascists, are racially homogenous in a setting that's even *more* diverse than reality, and engage in mass murder and occupation, but because we don't directly see a copy of Mein Space-Kampf where they blame the Clone Wars on Toydarians they're not *actually* fascist? There's death of the author, and there's wilfully ignoring themes that are clear in the text.

Honestly this is descending into unneeded definitions. The Galactic Empire is, by nature, it's own construct. It mirrors certain real-world visuals and interactions because it is the extended Antagonist of the series. It's supposed to be "the bad guys" and so there's a prescribed method of interaction with both the "good guys" and "neutral parties" they need to take, both for their own in-story identity and critical roles in the story and pacing.

But to say that the Empire is undeniably under a specific political and economic structure native to Earth has to be false because the Galactic Empire, at the end of the day, is not of Earth. So by nature there's other functions, systems and interactions in play that Earth can't really understand because it's just one world comprised of one sapient species.

It's a mirror, a dark reflection, it's what Earth's Western Culture likes to see in it's legions of villainy. It's what we as Earthlings think a construct of it's type might be like. What we need it to be like for the actions and progression of the heroes to be relatable to us, the Earthling audience.

But to say the Empire IS this or that is a waste, because it always is and is not whatever it does and doesn't need to be for the sake of the story.

Imperial Rome, Inquisitorial Spain, European Imperialism, 30's and 40's Germany, 40's and 50's Russia, the list can go on as long as you like, because you'll always find SOMETHING that matches the Galactic Empire. The Empire is always going to be all of these things, and none of these things, because it's not about Politics, Economic Theory, Religion, or any of that. It's about needing a large unrelatable faceless legion under a single strong identifiable leader or two. It's about a seemingly unstoppable force being taken on (and ultimately defeated) by a bunch of relatable underdogs, usually by challenging that leader in a fairly direct fashion.

So it doesn't matter. The Empire is bad, they'll always dress like baddies, act like baddies, and sit around in comfortable chairs drinking aged alcoholic beverages while discussing how much better the Galaxy is because of them, because that's what they do. That's what we as the audience want them to do.

Until some nit-wit hack writer slips Palpatine's Manifesto past the story group, the details are just conjecture. All the Empire is, is what we want it to be: the bad guys.