The house rules for Las weapons I use in my game. I find that they close the gap between Las and SP weapons wonderfully, and in a way that makes sense:

http://www.darkreign40k.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=634&Itemid=44

Nice.

Very realistic in many ways.

But, realistic at the expense of highly-increased complexity. So, probably not for me, at least not in full.

However, if you don't object, I may use a simplified version in my games.

Something like the following, though I'll probably need to polish it:

1.) All Las Weapons have the Accurate quality.

2.) All Las Weapons have the Reliable quality when fired in Single-Shot mode. They loose this quality when fired in Semi-Auto mode or Full-Auto mode, and gain the Unreliable and Overheats qualities when fired in Full-Auto mode. Poor, Good, or Best Craftsmanship can affect these qualities in the normal manner.

3.) All Las Weapons grant an additional +10 bonus to BS when fired in Single-Shot mode (in addition to the Accurate quality, when Aiming). This bonus drops to +5 in Semi-Auto mode, and disappears in Full-Auto mode.

4.) All Las Weapons that currenty have Rate of Fire that includes a Semi-Auto Burst now also have a Full-Auto Burst at double the Semi-Auto number of shots.

I know, it's not perfect, and doesn't include a great many of your very good ideas, but I think for my games, it will suffice.

It seems a lot if you take it in all at once, but on the flip side, most of the custom rules will not factor in most of the time, and many more are used at the discretion of the player/GM. By far, the most used element in the ruleset is the accuracy increase which is passive.

Now that said, I would caution against giving all Laser weapons the Accurate Quality offhand in addition to the accuracy bonuses normally alloted, as this gives them +30 to hit using a Half Aim. Coupled with the additional damage the Accurate Quality now permits, this may tip the scale in favour of Las weaponry a little too much; in earlier iterations of this ruleset, I found this to be the case.

I also would suggest that Lasguns that already have Semi and Full-Auto fire modes do not incur losses of Reliability when using them. Instead, loss of Reliability, by one step, comes about when using a mode that your gun doesn't normally have. For example, the basic Lasgun's Reliability would decrease from Reliable to normal when fired on Full-Auto.

Lastly, to simplify mode selection, I suggest the following: for every +1 increase in Damage and Penetration, the Reliability of the Lasgun decreases by 1 step respectively, and consumes an additional shot, and the opposite is true for decreases to Damage and Penetration (you might halve the number of shots consumed per decrease). For example, again using the basic Lasgun, if we wanted to increase its Damage and Penetration by 2 by increasing its power setting, its Reliability would decrement 2 steps down to Unreliable, and it would consume 3 shots instead of the usual 1. Conversely, if we wanted the Lasgun to be Failsafe, never jamming, we decrease the Damage and Penetration by 1 each, thus incrementing its Reliability by 1. Obviously, you cannot increase a weapon's power level beyond the amount required to make it Dangerous, jamming automatically on a failed BS test. You might also rule that a Lasgun that becomes Unreliable (or worse) as a result of this rule also Overheats on a Jam. This is an easy and intuitive way of incorporating power selection rules into the game.

I've been thinking about this reacently. I've seen Surrealistik's rules on Lasers before. They are quite longwinded and probably a bit OP compared to SP.

I was also thinking about the accurate quality. While it seems like they all should/could, for balance reasons and just the fact that most las weapons just wouldn't be set with good enough sights etc to make use of it. But it would be way easier for a las weapon to be accurate (a flat upgrade) than anything like an sp weapon (which would be more like a sniper version, good quality but semi auto at best).

I was thinking that maybe the Las quality could just have standard bonus to hit. Say +10. It would make automatic lasguns pretty nasty but they are a lot rarer and it would go a bit of the way to making a semi auto las weapons more useful in a very easy to implement way.

Actually, I find SP is competitive even with these rules because the weapons are so **** modular and customizable between upgrades and munition types (besides that Full-Auto is ubiquitous with them, without Reliability penalties).

I'm also not sure about a flat +10 bonus, but I do agree that if Las weapons were not granted Full-Auto as per those rules, it might not be too bad. Of course, the accuracy bonus should be only applicable to those Las weapons that are not Inaccurate and are Common Quality or better.

Adding +10 to hit rolls with las weapons is a quick fix to to account for what we know about the bonuses of lasers, i can't really comment on full auto las guns or power settings as I haven't read fluff that backs that up but it would be a lot complicated to implement. If anyone runs with it it will only be on ranges beyond point blank.

Variable power settings are established in the both the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer (IIUP), Page 18, where low and high power settings are described. Further, the Triplex pattern is mentioned as having variable settings in the tabletop description as per the IG's 5th ed codex. It is further described in the IIUP as having a fire rate of 220 rounds per minute and having a fire type from single shot to fully automatic. While a fire rate of 220 rounds per minute is perhaps low by comparison to modern assault rifles, it works out to 3.66 rounds per second, which would certainly be enough to qualify it as a fully automatic weapon.

As for Full-auto being difficult to implement or include, I don't see it; as long as a Lasgun has a Semi-Auto mode, and the GM agrees, a Lasgun can be given a Full-Auto mode equal to twice its Semi-Auto fire rate. Simple.

Variable power settings can also be easy to feature: on the high power setting, double the ammo cost and Range, decrease Reliability by 1 step, grant the Overheat Quality, and increase the Damage and Penetration by 1.

On the low one, halve the ammo cost and Range, increase Reliability by 1 step, and decrease Damage and Penetration by 1.

This arguement seems to be going on in three threads. And those rules are way more intense than that, even the full auto rules are made unnesecarily complicate.

But here's the thing, I don't care about the fluff, you don't have to tell me exactly where it's put it's just another work of fiction by a different author and they rearly all match up and I'm quite a fan of the IIUP. All that means is that the Mk III (from the IHB) is full auto.

You don't have to get make all semi auto lasguns full auto. Players are only going to use one of about 3 of the lasguns anyway (like they do with autoguns). And as GM I like semi auto weapons for npcs against low level players.

As for variable power settings who's actually going to use those power settings? And the high power setting is just using an overcharge pack (without the attrocious overheat rule). If you really want you can let someone with tech use fiddle with for the same effect. I mean most Guardsmen can't even read the IIUP let alone would want to risk anger the machine spirit by fiddling about with it.

"This arguement seems to be going on in three threads. And those rules are way more intense than that, even the full auto rules are made unnesecarily complicate."

Looking at the Full-Auto rules, not seeing "unnecessarily complicated" when it says that you at GM discretion Las weapons with Semi-Auto have a Full-Auto fire rate equal to twice that of the former. Very simple rule. While I agree that the rules in their summary seem daunting, in my first hand experience running them in my game, they do not appreciably slow anything down, and are actually quite managable. I was also not trying to represent those rules, so much as simplified alternative for those who thought them too involved.

"But here's the thing, I don't care about the fluff, you don't have to tell me exactly where it's put it's just another work of fiction by a different author and they rearly all match up and I'm quite a fan of the IIUP. All that means is that the Mk III (from the IHB) is full auto.

You don't have to get make all semi auto lasguns full auto. Players are only going to use one of about 3 of the lasguns anyway (like they do with autoguns). And as GM I like semi auto weapons for npcs against low level players."

Sure, that's why the rules account for the fact that not all Semi-Auto Las weapons have Full-Auto by explicitly saying that assignment of the latter is "at GM discretion". This is probably done for the sake of simplicity, and brevity, rather than attempting to list off every last Lasgun that is identified by the fluff as having Full-Auto.

"As for variable power settings who's actually going to use those power settings? And the high power setting is just using an overcharge pack (without the attrocious overheat rule). If you really want you can let someone with tech use fiddle with for the same effect. I mean most Guardsmen can't even read the IIUP let alone would want to risk anger the machine spirit by fiddling about with it."

The Overcharge Pack is a raw deal and a custom munition, not a charge setting. Further, even if the average Guardsman is an illiterate moron who can't read the IIUP nor wish to ever risk using the setting selector (highly doubt this post training), that doesn't mean your Acolytes should be prohibited from doing so.

Further, I am using the variable power settings rule in my game, where my players have used it well and intelligently to solve problems and improve their performance, utilizing low power when ammo conservation and reliability is most important, high power when they need to kill quickly or require that extra bit of range.

I don't even think this is overpowered. Quite the reverse. I would much rather have a FA lasgun which has a 1d10 +3 damage that's reliable.

Unnescesarily complicated is two thousand word document which you essentially summed up in a paragraph. Which you omitted a fair chunk of nano-specifics (which it needed) such as the whole reliability changing based on rate of fire. Smoke effecting the damage, which if you aren't taking into account other properties (such as lasers travelling in a straight line) I don't see a point in.

But as I say I can't see anything that says that all las weapons must have FA setting and three power settings when it's described as the standard weapon in an IIUP from across the galaxy and a codex that mentions it regarding the Triplex patter that I don't think they've mentioned. So you could have a specifc weapon that weapon that has a fire mode changer that is as easy as a fire selector and give it it's three power settings as different stat lines and have the ammo listed as the low power setting so you don't have half shots left if fired on low power. I maintain that the low power is going to only be used in specifically manufactured situations and you might as well have some one with tech use enable this when and if ever it's needed.

But really they decided to represent it with overcharge packs which is fine by me. The only difference is going to be 1 pen in exchange for overheat (a 1 in 10 chance of at least disarming yourself) so clearly the machine spirit is made unhappy by this option.

I don't even think this is overpowered. Quite the reverse. I would much rather have a FA lasgun which has a 1d10 +3 damage that's reliable.

Even with FA, the Lasgun quickly becomes outmoded by its Autogun counterparts for all the reasons mentioned earlier. It is simply not as customizable, and cannot take on special munitions barring a Hotshot which is a very specialist form of munition unsuitable for most situations, and an Overcharge Pack which is completely underwhelming, especially vis a vis things like Manstoppers.

"Unnescesarily complicated is two thousand word document which you essentially summed up in a paragraph. Which you omitted a fair chunk of nano-specifics (which it needed) such as the whole reliability changing based on rate of fire. Smoke effecting the damage, which if you aren't taking into account other properties (such as lasers travelling in a straight line) I don't see a point in. "

I don't see where the 'unnecessarily complicated' part comes in barring perhaps the impact on smoke, although I appreciate the reasoning behind it. It is not a rule I carry out to the letter, preferring to estimate the impact. Other than that everything fits, make sense, and is fairly well streamlined relative to the options they introduce to the game. Further, while I did sum up two main points of the document, I did not come close to describing all of them, particularly the utility settings, jamming rules and charge pack overloading, which are all excellent and fun additions to the game that allow for both improved realism (jamming rules) and creative, varied play (pack overloading, utility settings).

"But as I say I can't see anything that says that all las weapons must have FA setting and three power settings when it's described as the standard weapon in an IIUP from across the galaxy and a codex that mentions it regarding the Triplex patter that I don't think they've mentioned. So you could have a specifc weapon that weapon that has a fire mode changer that is as easy as a fire selector and give it it's three power settings as different stat lines and have the ammo listed as the low power setting so you don't have half shots left if fired on low power. I maintain that the low power is going to only be used in specifically manufactured situations and you might as well have some one with tech use enable this when and if ever it's needed."

Again, neither I nor the document make the claim that all Las weapons must have the FA setting, and a setting selector. However, it is very much worth noting that the very same Lasgun mentioned in DH core book is the one described as having Full-Auto and a setting selector in the IIUP.

"But really they decided to represent it with overcharge packs which is fine by me. The only difference is going to be 1 pen in exchange for overheat (a 1 in 10 chance of at least disarming yourself) so clearly the machine spirit is made unhappy by this option. "

Again, Overcharge Packs are not equivalent to a high power setting, they are a custom munition, and unless you have a psychic insight into the minds of the devs, you cannot claim they intended it as a stand in for a high power setting. Further, if this _was_ the case, why would they? It's much more simplistic to devote a single paragraph explaining the charge setting mechanic rather than creating another item entry.

I'll decide what is too complicated for my games Sirrah and I say an A4 document with 4 tables is it.

I can see what Surrealistik was doing, I don't think he really made it the equal of SP weapons (although the flexibililty was nice). You can tell that he wsa trying to make rules that you could apply to any las weapon which was a mistake. Does it say anywhere you can overcharge a hellgun or Solex laser. Probably not.

I would suggest you go trim that down to brass tacks.

Forget power settings (the 5th ed IG codex suggests that the Triplex pattern is well sort after because of it's veriable power settings, so stat it if you are desperate) and exploding power packs, they should live on only as arcane tech use trickery should it ever be needed.

Have a few of the Lasgun types of fire on full auto.

Give it a bit of pen if you want (older codex's and Necromunda apparently back that up). Maybe have andother point of pen with over charge packs.

It's not going to be the equal of good autogun with manstopper rounds but it'll be fairly close and cheaper to run.

"I'll decide what is too complicated for my games Sirrah and I say an A4 document with 4 tables is it. "

"I would suggest you go trim that down to brass tacks."

See, what's great about said document is that the rules within are modular, conveniently compartmentalized and you can pick and choose among them, rather than taking the whole thing down wholesale.

"I can see what Surrealistik was doing, I don't think he really made it the equal of SP weapons (although the flexibililty was nice). You can tell that he wsa trying to make rules that you could apply to any las weapon which was a mistake. Does it say anywhere you can overcharge a hellgun or Solex laser. Probably not. "

He didn't make Lasguns the equal of SPs in terms of sheer killing power, but I don't think that was the intent. I mean, if you gave them all that flexibility, _plus_ truly comparable lethality, why would you ever go with an SP weapon ever again? I like the way the Lasgun was improved and made roughly equivalent to the SP in a distinct, interesting way that plays to the fluff (largely anyways).

Also yeah, the rules can get a bit general, but that's where you as the GM step in to determine what can and cannot be done; the way I see it, the rules leave us the flexibility to do that.

"Forget power settings (the 5th ed IG codex suggests that the Triplex pattern is well sort after because of it's veriable power settings, so stat it if you are desperate) and exploding power packs, they should live on only as arcane tech use trickery should it ever be needed.

Have a few of the Lasgun types of fire on full auto.

Give it a bit of pen if you want (older codex's and Necromunda apparently back that up). Maybe have andother point of pen with over charge packs.

It's not going to be the equal of good autogun with manstopper rounds but it'll be fairly close and cheaper to run."

Again, I don't think power settings are complicated to implement, even if you disagree with Sur's representation of them; it's pretty easy to summarize the notion of damage and range increases at the cost of Reliability within a short paragraph. Overcharging power packs is a little more esoteric, but again can be neatly summarized by a paragraph (as Sur did, although his use of percentages may scare off some). I also don't think just slapping on some Pen is a good solution; simplicity too great a cost and too little an effect in my opinion.

Agree with subsets of Lasguns having Full-Auto.

Lastly, as said earlier, I don't think the goal should be to make Lasguns simply as 'killy' as Autoguns (though I agree with narrowing this gap to an extent), but to make them competitive in unique ways that are particular to their mechanics, particularly in the form of flexibility.