If using the basic power to sense others around you in shirt range what do you roll against?

As it isn't directly targeting any particular thing, I would say you just roll your Force Rating.

14 minutes ago, LordEnforcer said:

If using the basic power to sense others around you in shirt range what do you roll against?

Under normal circumstances, you just roll your Force dice and generate a single Force point, as by default the power's not opposed or has an established difficulty, so no skill check is required.

The exception to this would be a Nemesis or a named/plot-important Rival who per the sidebar about resisting Force powers would be able to make it an opposed check. What skills are used is up to the GM and player to decide, but I could see it being user's Perception or Vigilance vs. the target's Stealth to avoid detection. Or just use the suggested default of Discipline vs. Discipline, though in this case I'd find that to be a little boring.

I'll present a different thought here, that if you were concerned about meta-gaming, the simple act of including a difficulty for the player to roll against would tip them off that someone strong is nearby. I'd personally just go with what the rules allow for, which is sensing living creatures nearby or sensing emotional states. Doesn't really give much more information beyond that unless you start using the "Sense Thoughts" upgrade and yeah at that point I would include difficulties because they are specifically targeting a single character to use that power, so they'd already be aware of said strong NPC.

Plus, it's Star Wars, you'd probably be building up the "dramatic music" for the strong NPC anyway !

3 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

The  exception to this would be a Nemesis or a nam  ed/plot-important Rival who per the sidebar about resisting Force powers would be able to make i  t an o  ppo  sed chec  k  . 

This is a cuckoo bananas suggestion to me.

How exactly does a - especially a non-Force Sensitive - person hide their life force ... Even a Force User it seems to me would have to have Suppress or something, a Talent whatever, that they can actually do to stop it. You can't just hide your life force in the shadows like its your foot. Especially passively, at a very very minimum if you allow this poor suggestion, the target FU would have to know if the PC is out their trying to find them, and therefore would have to "actively" try to conceal themself.

Look OP, maybe it's not a concern for you, but if you want to have a functioning vanilla Morality mechanic, you have to allow the Force to be better than the standard skill check (Perception or Vigilance) when appropriate. This is how you tempt PCs to use dark pips.

Accordingly, you have to allow the Force to accomplish fantastic things at times. Amongst those accomplishments is allowing a Power to function as described. Your FU paid xp for this ability, and sometime's they'll likely have to take Conflict to use it (IF you make it worth it, which allowing it to be opposed does not do).

Just let it work if they succeed the Force check.

Regarding my earlier response...

I'm just going off what's published in the book. The sidebar makes zero mention of any Force powers that can or can't be resisted. ****, a case could be made for Move (non-damaging variety at the very least) can't be resisted at all since how exactly do you "resist" an invisible energy suddenly picking you up?

Obviously, each power is going to be on a case-by-case basis unless it specifically has a set difficulty (Unleash portion of Protect/Unleash) or is already an opposed check (Influence's mind trick control upgrade).

So each GM is free to decide what powers can be resisted, and which ones simply cannot.

As for "metagaming knowledge," that's been a problem with RPGs since their creation. The simple act of asking a PC for any sort of check means the player knows something is up, otherwise why are they even rolling? The better grade of players aren't going to act on that out of character knowledge, and react the way their character would react based upon the check result. The lower grade of players are going to metagame and act on out-of-character knowledge, but that's not exactly something the rules here can address, any more than they can automatically solve a GM's problems with a min-maxing twink player without some effort on the GM's part.

From a RAW perspective, Move has a target, Sense is area effect.

If you want to look at fluff, you're in luck because as this is a narrative-based game (ppl seem to constantly forget/neglect) my table has had this discussion, when I ask them to justify their given approach.

Move is manipulating midichlorians inside a target, right (and thereby their physical body - cuz Force), Sense you're just seeing the mididchlorians (and the concentrations in a body).

Resisting the former is therefore easily conceived of as simply "breaking out of" that manipulative grasp physically (resist with Athletics, which I allow to give non-FUs a better chance against), or "slapping away" that grasp (resist w/ Discipline).

To stop someone from seeing your midichlorians, uhhh... first you gotta know how to interact with the midichlorians, next you, uhhh, well, you can't get them out of your body... you don't have any control over the midis themselves, you only use them as an interface with reality, so...

Yea, what's your narrative justification?

Furthermore, its not that powerful of an effect, you don't gain any sort of location, the type of lifeform, or anything else about them, unless you're spending more pips (risking more Conflict) to do something else you've paid xp for. Yea, in the scope of things to "Say No..." to as GM... this has to be right near the very bottom.

Ummm no. Because you can move inanimate objects and they do not have midichloriens. also midichloriens are a lame plot device that dont serve any purpose.

For one, my point/the fluff isn't dependent on midichlorians. Second, it's canon, sorry.

Further, inanimate objects don't resist, so your point is moot. But midichlorians or not, objects are clearly manipulated (or not) in a different way by the Force (droids). The "energy field", perhaps?

There is a specific talent called shroud that shrouds the sentient using said talent from the force when used. It also makes their force powers undetectable. Personally that would be the one of only ways I would let someone hide from sense. That talent costs a destiny point flip, which I read to mean it's a powerful and uncommon ability. Personally I dont feel like allowing it to be duplicated with an opposed check to be within the spirit of that talent.

I might let someone frozen in carbonite avoid detection, under the justification their life force would be dim and maybe read as something else.

Really though, asassin droids can be your friend if someone is always relying on sense to find the bad guys.

I may have done that on a few of my sessions ? .

On 6/7/2018 at 3:33 PM, emsquared said:

For one, my point/the fluff isn't dependent on midichlorians  . Second, it's canon, sorry.

The only things cannon about them are:

• They exist
• Anakin had a lot
• Yoda had a lot
• They are related to the force

They aren't the force. Saying they are how you lift a rock is as accurate as saying cancer is how an atom bomb explodes.

On 6/15/2018 at 8:30 PM, Ogbar said:

The only things cannon about them are:

• They exist
• Anakin had a lot
• Yoda had a lot
• They are related to the force

They aren't the force. Saying they are how you lift a rock is as accurate as saying cancer is how an atom bomb explodes.

I never got the rage over Midichlorians.

Clearly the Jedi has a way to test strength that was quantifiable, and not just eyeballing it. There is nothing that indicates the Midichlorians control or influence the force, just that when someone is strong in the force they have a lot of them. This suggests to me an almost benevolent parasite that lives in a person connected to the force, which is a conventional way for Jedi to measure strength.

Does "Living Being" exclude droids?

I ask because this does weaken the Jedi in a Clone Wars campaign, but at the same time, it does make sense as to why the Separatists would rely so heavily on droids.

For me midichlorians are to the Force what photons are to the light.

Are you able to use sense to detect other force sensitives?

3 hours ago, Sincereagape said:

Are you able to use sense to detect other force sensitives?

By RAW, no. As things stand, there's no way within the rules as written to detect if another person is Force-sensitive.

That said, a common house rule that more than a few GMs have adopted is to allow Sense to detect other Force-sensitives, usually at the exclusion of the other uses of Sense (i.e. you can't at the same time detective life forms or read the person's emotions). It's not an automatic thing, so you'd still need to roll Force dice and generate sufficient Force points. As for the range... that varies between GMs. Some allow for the Force user to either pick out all Force-sensitives within short range, but you don't know who they are specifically, just that there's other Force-sensitives in the area, or that you're limited to a single engaged person (as if you were reading their emotions) which means far less range but you know if that specific person is or isn't Force-sensitive.

8 hours ago, Sincereagape said:

Are you able to use sense to detect other force sensitives?

In any game I've ever played in or ran, if you're a Force User, you can sense (lower case "s") the Force. That's what using the Force is. No Power necessary.

If there's a Force-imbued item, you can tell that. Either by touching it, or just being near it, depending on how strong the Force is with the item.

Same with people. You can just sense the Force in someone, the stronger it is in them, the further away you can sense it.

And that aligns with the lore, I think.

Only something like Shroud can conceal it.

Do what works for your table, there's no RAW on it.

I would add the addendum, though, that they would have to know what it actually is that they are sensing. They wouldn't necessarily understand what exactly they're sensing if they are relatively untrained during the time of the Empire when that sort of knowledge was... "discouraged" if you will.

10 hours ago, emsquared said:

In any game I've ever played in or ran, if you're a Force User, you can sense (lower case "s") the Force. That's what using the Force is. No Power necessary.

If there's a Force-imbued item, you can tell that. Either by touching it, or just being near it, depending on how strong the Force is with the item.

Same with people. You can just sense the Force in someone, the stronger it is in them, the further away you can sense it.

And that aligns with the lore, I think.

Only something like Shroud can conceal it.

I'd disagree that a character with Sense would automatically detect the mere presence of someone who is Force-sensitive and know the exact source, as that by itself as an automatic ability is way too potent. It's certainly not like the Highlander franchise where one Immortal can instantly and automatically recognize the presence of another Immortal.

Going by ANH, Vader may have detected the presence of a Force-sensitive (Kenobi), but only did so by actively reaching out, and even then only recognized Kenobi due to his long and inherent familiarity with his former master's presence in the Force, while Luke was either missed or just ignored. It wasn't until the trench run when Vader sensed that something was different with this pilot, roughly about the time that Luke switched off his targeting computer and reached out to the Force, which may have been a Perception check on Vader's part to pick up on the source of the disturbance (given Luke's immense yet untapped potential in the saga's narrative).

Turning to series premiere of Star Wars Rebels, both Kanan and Ezra pick up that something unusual occurred when their paths first crossed, but that may have been to both of them using the Sense power (Kanan knowingly, Ezra unwittingly) or just a case of narrative foreshadowing at how their respective destinies are going to cross, but neither of them is able to pick out who the other is; Kanan might have recognized it as the presence of another Force-sensitive, but that would only be due to his Jedi training giving him a reference point of how to recognize another Force user.

I'd agree that it may well be possible to detect the active usage of the Force (for those instances where it's not blatantly obvious) with the Sense power, but I disagree that it would be an automatic thing either, especially if the active Force user is making efforts to be subtle about what they're doing. I believe it was in Keeping the Peace's GM chapter that they discussed the whole idea of subtle Force usage so as to avoid drawing attention to oneself, which itself indicates that Shroud is not the only means to conceal usage of the Force; said talent is simply the most reliable version as there's no skill check involved, where KtP's suggestions involve a skill check per Force usage which carries with it the risk of failure.

14 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

I'd disagree that a character with Sense would automatically detect the mere presence of someone who is Force-sensitive and know the exact source, as that by itself as an automatic ability is way too potent. It's certainly not like the Highlander franchise where one Immortal can instantly and automatically recognize the presence of another Immortal.

Going by ANH, Vader may have detected the presence of a Force-sensitive (Kenobi), but only did so by actively reaching out, and even then only recognized Kenobi due to his long and inherent familiarity with his former master's presence in the Force, while Luke was either missed or just ignored. It wasn't until the trench run when Vader sensed that something was different with this pilot, roughly about the time that Luke switched off his targeting computer and reached out to the Force, which may have been a Perception check on Vader's part to pick up on the source of the disturbance (given Luke's immense yet untapped potential in the saga's narrative).

Turning to series premiere of Star Wars Rebels, both Kanan and Ezra pick up that something unusual occurred when their paths first crossed, but that may have been to both of them using the Sense power (Kanan knowingly, Ezra unwittingly) or just a case of narrative foreshadowing at how their respective destinies are going to cross, but neither of them is able to pick out who the other is; Kanan might have recognized it as the presence of another Force-sensitive, but that would only be due to his Jedi training giving him a reference point of how to recognize another Force user.

I'd agree that it may well be possible to detect the active usage of the Force (for those instances where it's not blatantly obvious) with the Sense power, but I disagree that it would be an automatic thing either, especially if the active Force user is making efforts to be subtle about what they're doing. I believe it was in Keeping the Peace's GM chapter that they discussed the whole idea of subtle Force usage so as to avoid drawing attention to oneself, which itself indicates that Shroud is not the only means to conceal usage of the Force; said talent is simply the most reliable version as there's no skill check involved, where KtP's suggestions involve a skill check per Force usage which carries with it the risk of failure.

I would also say the use of the force is like dropping a pebble in a pond. they can sense a general direction of that pebble. but they can detect the direction and size of those ripples. They cant detect the pebble. only the the ripples. so unless they see the person actively using the force while they are in their presence they can't tie the ripples to the person. I think this is how Papatine was able to hide right in front of jedi masters.

54 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

I'd disagree that a character with Sense would automatically detect the mere presence of someone who is Force-sensitive and know the exact source, as that by itself as an automatic ability is way too potent. It's certainly not like the Highlander franchise where one Immortal can instantly and automatically recognize the presence of another Immortal.

Going by ANH, Vader may have detected the presence of a Force-sensitive (Kenobi), but only did so by actively reaching out, and even then only recognized Kenobi due to his long and inherent familiarity with his former master's presence in the Force, while Luke was either missed or just ignored. It wasn't until the trench run when Vader sensed that something was different with this pilot, roughly about the time that Luke switched off his targeting computer and reached out to the Force, which may have been a Perception check on Vader's part to pick up on the source of the disturbance (given Luke's immense yet untapped potential in the saga's narrative).

Turning to series premiere of Star Wars Rebels, both Kanan and Ezra pick up that something unusual occurred when their paths first crossed, but that may have been to both of them using the Sense power (Kanan knowingly, Ezra unwittingly) or just a case of narrative foreshadowing at how their respective destinies are going to cross, but neither of them is able to pick out who the other is; Kanan might have recognized it as the presence of another Force-sensitive, but that would only be due to his Jedi training giving him a reference point of how to recognize another Force user.

I'd agree that it may well be possible to detect the active usage of the Force (for those instances where it's not blatantly obvious) with the Sense power, but I disagree that it would be an automatic thing either, especially if the active Force user is making efforts to be subtle about what they're doing. I believe it was in Keeping the Peace's GM chapter that they discussed the whole idea of subtle Force usage so as to avoid drawing attention to oneself, which itself indicates that Shroud is not the only means to conceal usage of the Force; said talent is simply the most reliable version as there's no skill check involved, where KtP's suggestions involve a skill check per Force usage which carries with it the risk of failure.

Clearly Ben has Shroud, and Luke was not powerful enough (Force Rating is what I cue it off of) in the Force to detect from further than Short or Engaged range.

Also, I didn't say you could automatically know who it is, if there's two dozen ppl within Short Range, it could be any of them. I'd allow a Discipline check though to narrow it down or even pinpoint.

Most importantly though, you seem to have missed the main and most important point of my statement, Donovan:

I've always played it, and seen it played, that it does not require a Force Power at all (not Sense, not Foresee, not Farsight - all of which I've seen posited at different times and other places as being able to detect the Force in someone/thing) to tell if someone is a Force User. Nothing indicates it requires a Power to detect a Force User. Indeed, many things indicate it does not.

There's a number of things that ANY Force User can do with no Force Power check. And they are:

1. Sense a disturbance in the Force (you require a Sense Power to do that?)

2. Sense Dark or Lightside nexuses.

3. S ense whether an object is Force-imbued, or if a person is a Force User. It's still an "active use" thing, they have to say they want to do it, but it doesn't require a Power, nor Force Power check.

4. "Channel" the Force into a Force-imbued object to activate it, like a door/lock in an ancient South Temple "designed" to keep non-Force Users out, or to use a Holocron.

There's potentially other narrative things too (bind a crystal to yourself).

To use the Force at all, you must be able to sense (again, lower-case "s") the Force. If you're gonna "wield" the Force, you first must be able to perceive it, and how it is permeating the world around you.

Any of those things may require a Skill Check, depending on the situation, but they do not require a Power.

Not by any reckoning that I've every played under.

2 hours ago, emsquared said:

Clearly Ben has Shroud, and Luke was not powerful enough (Force Rating is what I cue it off of) in the Force to detect from further than Short or Engaged range.

Also, I didn't say you could automatically know who it is, if there's two dozen ppl within Short Range, it could be any of them. I'd allow a Discipline check though to narrow it down or even pinpoint.

Most importantly though, you seem to have missed the main and most important point of my statement, Donovan:

I've always played it, and seen it played, that it does not require a Force Power at all (not Sense, not Foresee, not Farsight - all of which I've seen posited at different times and other places as being able to detect the Force in someone/thing) to tell if someone is a Force User. Nothing indicates it requires a Power to detect a Force User. Indeed, many things indicate it does not.

There's a number of things that ANY Force User can do with no Force Power check. And they are:

1. Sense a disturbance in the Force (you require a Sense Power to do that?)

2. Sense Dark or Lightside nexuses.

3. S ense whether an object is Force-imbued, or if a person is a Force User. It's still an "active use" thing, they have to say they want to do it, but it doesn't require a Power, nor Force Power check.

4. "Channel" the Force into a Force-imbued object to activate it, like a door/lock in an ancient South Temple "designed" to keep non-Force Users out, or to use a Holocron.

There's potentially other narrative things too (bind a crystal to yourself).

To use the Force at all, you must be able to sense (again, lower-case "s") the Force. If you're gonna "wield" the Force, you first must be able to perceive it, and how it is permeating the world around you.

Any of those things may require a Skill Check, depending on the situation, but they do not require a Power.

Not by any reckoning that I've every played under.

Why do you assume he felt Luke when he clearly says he felt something he hasnt felt in a long time. He felt ben not luke. He never felt luke.

Emsquared,

Wrong on that first point, since as Daeglan pointed out Vader had zero clue that Luke was around, and Vader even specifically says when talking to Tarkin that he sensed the presence of his old master, and even then specifically said near the Falcon that he'd felt a presence, one he'd not felt since being in the presence of his old master. To presume that he also detected Luke in that same instant is just that, presumption. He also wasn't able to directly pinpoint where Kenobi was at that exact moment, otherwise why run off to Tarkin instead of just grabbing a bunch of stormtroopers and tear into those smuggling compartments? To say nothing of it being both lazy and gamest to say "oh, this character avoided detection because they had the Shroud talent!"

There's also the flaw in your reasoning that we've seen people using the Force without any real idea of what it was they were doing, or necessarily being able to "sense" anything beyond an occasional bit of weirdness. In fact, in the films themselves, we have two largely untrained Force-sensitives (Luke and Rey) who are oblivious to what would constitute major disturbances in the Force (Alderaan and the Hosnian system respectively), so it's pretty clear that not just any Force-sensitive can pick up on 'disturbances in the Force,' to say nothing of the often-used analogy that Daeglan referenced of "a pebble in a pond" where unless you're actively looking for, most uses of the Force aren't going to create that big of a ripple that can be detected unless you're actively looking for it.

With holocrons, do you have a source that says the user has to "channel" the Force into it, or is that just something you've made up for your games? Because in every instance of holocrons that I've encountered in the lore (canon and Legends), it was more the holocron was the one picking up on "hey, this person is Force-sensitive," with Ezra unknowingly activating Kanan's holocron while imprisoned and having zero clue what it was or how to even work it. The most an untrained Force-sensitive might do to actively turn a holocron on would be to speak to it.

The auto-detecting a nexus or Force-imbued item is supposition on your part, as the film examples we have of a Force-sensitive detecting such a place are ones who've undergone some amount of training, and thus have the Sense power, giving them the ability to detect and identify such places beyond a "I have a funny feeling about this..." sensation.

About the only element you might have a point on is the auto-detecting if an inanimate object is imbued with the Force via touch, as there's been Legends and canon examples of particular objects having a significant Force presence (such as the kaiburr crystal fragments from Splinter of the Mind's Eye). But auto-detecting a person has been proven false, else wise why would the Jedi Order need a series of medical tests to verify if a child is Force-sensitive? It's again a very lazy and purely gamest assumption to say "oh, well Palpatine was using Shroud 24/7" as a way to work around your presumption that Force-sensitives can just pull a Highlander and automatically know another person is Force-sensitive. In Legends, Luke had to develop a specific Force technique to test if a person was Force-sensitive.

29 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Why do you assume he felt Luke when he clearly says he felt something he hasnt felt in a long time. He felt ben not luke. He never felt luke.

Remember "the force is strong with this one?"

I would say that Vader sensed Obi-Wan himself not so much Obi-Wan's force "signature" if you will.