Don't be so proud of this technological terror you've constructed, the ability to destroy an opponent with a luck hit is insignificant compared to the ability to stun lock them.

So fully modded dragite gem for the win, concussive 2 "ain't nutin' to sneeze at". Someone going against my circa 500 xp character has 2 red, 3 black, 5 or 6 ranks of parry, and coordination dodge to deal with, landing a hit on me isn't easy. I get 2 yellow, 3 green, a blue, remove a black, plus an advantage on attacks, if I can hit an opponent at least once every 2 rounds it's game set match.

2 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Don't be so proud of this technological terror you've constructed, the ability to destroy an opponent with a luck hit is insignificant compared to the ability to stun lock them.

So fully modded dragite gem for the win, concussive 2 "ain't nutin' to sneeze at". Someone going against my circa 500 xp character has 2 red, 3 black, 5 or 6 ranks of parry, and coordination dodge to deal with, landing a hit on me isn't easy. I get 2 yellow, 3 green, a blue, remove a black, plus an advantage on attacks, if I can hit an opponent at least once every 2 rounds it's game set match.

To quote a king of Sparta

"If."

10 minutes ago, Shlambate said:

To quote a king of Sparta

"If."

Unless I'm going up against myself (or an equally defensive tank build) in a lightsaber duel I have pretty darn good odds of if==true at least once every 2 rounds but most opponents won't have odds of hitting me that are nearly so good.

44 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Unless I'm going up against myself (or an equally defensive tank build) in a lightsaber duel I have pretty darn good odds of if==true at least once every 2 rounds but most opponents won't have odds of hitting me that are nearly so good.

I remove luck from the equation, if it has to be done with super hard hitting saber assuming I have good enough dice to get 1 success two advantage I could deal 13 damage + 6 from Falling Avalanche + 6 from Anatomy Lessons, + linked is 50 but you can apply soak and parry twice so "if" you have Cotorsis you live!

I'm in two minds about this. First off, I love playing tinkerers and fiddle with gear. Gives me something to do between sessions when I need to get my rpgeek on.

That said, I totally get where people are coming from with it being too much. I mean, should Anakin's lightsaber have to be a super special artifact of +5 doom to be special? No, because it's a lightsaber.

But yeah, I still like having customisation options, although I must admit that, as a player, I don't see crystal as choice. Given how rare they are, you take what you get and the variety feels more useful to the GM, to have some control over how powerful the PCs get.

I do like the Ilum crystal. The sheer number of mods, with the rising difficulty to mod, naturally makes the tend to evolve slowly with their user, starting off fairly humble to become the uber-nasty glowstick of doom we all know and love.

As for hilts, I don't usually bother with anything else than the standard hilt, although it has become sort of a running gag that my character builds fanciful hilt designs that invariably turn out to be impractical for different reasons. For instance, building it into a blaster pistol was indeed a decent way to disguise the fact that it was a lightsaber, but as it was obviously a weapon, so I ended up having to turn in my precious artifact at the door or hand it off to bodyguards more often than I'd like. In that case, maybe just a regular lightsaber would have been better as it might not as obviously a weapon. Currently the lightsaber is disguised as part of my rocket boots. I fully expect that the next place we visit have a cultural taboo against shoes.

12 hours ago, Shlambate said:

I much prefer customization because it differentitates my characters in FAD, Depending on the Jedi/Sith behind it the stlye of the saber can very much be a story telling tool.

Palpatine's sabers are ornate and beautiful to look at but terribly small and hard to wield perfect for Palpatine who thought he was better than the Jedi and didn't need to use the Saber but when he did he wanted it to be eye catching.

Vader's Saber is functional and large enough to be wielded in two hands, perfectly balanced so a fighter could easily wield it. It had many advanced attachments one such was the ability to change the length of the blade at will so he could throw off his opponents and go in for the kill.

Your saber tells the story of your Jedi or Sith in every way you tweak it.

Just want to point out that what your lightsaber hilt looks like, exotic materials notwithstanding, is entirely up to your imagination. There are no customization/crafting mechanics or rules that apply here. Maybe your GM might impose a crafting check if you want it to look very ornate or something like that, but that’s still not a modification.

13 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I would say, with absolute certainty, that yes, the capability to fully customize a lightsaber is necessary when dealing with other heavily modded weapons and armors. They also greatly help differentiate each character’s fighting styles, particularly when the weapon has been optimized for a given form. The lightsaber optimized for a Malachi Duelist should be mechanically different than one built by, and for, a Niman Disciple, Ataru Striker, or Shien Expert.

I’d disagree, mostly because there’s more to it than the weapons themselves. Talents and Force powers heavily affect balance too. It’s a difficult comparison to make and every XP spent on Force powers will get spent on talents by non Force users, but in my experience Force users can more than hold their own without relying on massively tricked out sabers.

Personally, I always liked the idea that lightsabers are personal, and made to each individuals taste. Or in some cases in what they can scrounge. Loved the story about the force user who built a hilt out of a speeder bike handle and other components they scavenged.

So, for the crafting.

The whole "this is your father's" bit is cool, but Luke and Vader both ended up making new ones, more suited to their current needs/taste

9 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

I’d disagree, mostly because there’s more to it than the weapons themselves. Talents and Force powers heavily affect balance too. It’s a difficult comparison to make and every XP spent on Force powers will get spent on talents by non Force users, but in my experience Force users can more than hold their own without relying on massively tricked out sabers.

You're missing my point. Having a weapon which is optimized to take advantage of those talents and Force powers is much more effective in combat than a "one-size-fits-all" weapon in the hands of that same combatant.

I think that extra mods allow the lightsaber to grow with the character.

However, I think that in the base setting of FaD not every character who happens to use the force should have lightsaber or obtain it easily.

It should be something that gives the characters power, reverence, but also a trail on them from the empire. The empire should be scared of a lightsaber. Citizens should be scared of it even more. If this isn't a part of having it it feels kind of... fake.

So yeah, the base ilum crystal should be awesome, but at the same time, it should be cool to give the soresu defender a cool defensive crystal when they defeat a big baddie, or something of the like.

1 minute ago, player3168361 said:

I think that extra mods allow the lightsaber to grow with the character.

However, I think that in the base setting of FaD not every character who happens to use the force should have lightsaber or obtain it easily.

It should be something that gives the characters power, reverence, but also a trail on them from the empire. The empire should be scared of a lightsaber. Citizens should be scared of it even more. If this isn't a part of having it it feels kind of... fake.

So yeah, the base ilum crystal should be awesome, but at the same time, it should be cool to give the soresu defender a cool defensive crystal when they defeat a big baddie, or something of the like.

Of course most of that assumes playing during the Rebellion era. For other eras, carrying a lightsaber is a badge of honor, not a target for the authorities. However, for characters from force sects that don't use lightsabers, I agree, they wouldn't be likely to wield one.

21 hours ago, Shlambate said:

I remove luck from the equation, if it has to be done with super hard hitting saber assuming I have good enough dice to get 1 success two advantage I could deal 13 damage + 6 from Falling Avalanche + 6 from Anatomy Lessons, + linked is 50 but you can apply soak and parry twice so "if" you have Cotorsis you live!

Adding five failures makes that assumption very questionable (coordination dodge with a high defense pool for the win!)

Btw anatomy lessons and I believe falling avalanche only apply to 1 hit of an attack.

But I already crafted a protective amulet (2 actually) and am hunting for a talisman of the iron fist which is like cortosis.

13 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

I’d disagree, mostly because there’s more to it than the weapons themselves. Talents and Force powers heavily affect balance too. It’s a difficult comparison to make and every XP spent on Force powers will get spent on talents by non Force users, but in my experience Force users can more than hold their own without relying on massively tricked out sabers.

In @Tramp Graphics defense, he is speaking from the perspective of his signature character Korath Lorren which he invented formulas to "convert" from previous systems (plural), i.e. he did not BUILD it for with respect /heed to the ffg system. You've probably heard the expression "jack of all trades and a master of none/one" well Korath is more like a "7 of all trades and a jack or queen of one". He's got over 1800 xp and a lot of "variety" but no real focus or even "synergy", the only thing mildly impressive about it is the 4 or 5 force dice (the jack or queen) but iits overkill for the minimal number of upgrades in any (and almost every) single power. A well *designed* (or even grown organically in this system) character with about half his xp could do most of what korath can do only better, so for Korath (Tramp's reference point) a heavily tricked out lightsaber IS pretty much a NECESSITY. But it's very understandable that a person with a very different point of reference would have a very different opinion on this issue

On ‎6‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 8:55 PM, EliasWindrider said:

Don't be so proud of this technological terror you've constructed, the ability to destroy an opponent with a luck hit is insignificant compared to the ability to stun lock them.

So fully modded dragite gem for the win, concussive 2 "ain't nutin' to sneeze at". Someone going against my circa 500 xp character has 2 red, 3 black, 5 or 6 ranks of parry, and coordination dodge to deal with, landing a hit on me isn't easy. I get 2 yellow, 3 green, a blue, remove a black, plus an advantage on attacks, if I can hit an opponent at least once every 2 rounds it's game set match.

Does all that in some way resemble a lightsaber in a role-playing game? Cause it kind of sounds like you are trying to win in a competitive board game or something by piling up the hotels on your property in hopes someone will land on it. You know the GM can simply supply enemies with anything that beats your combo, and so essentially 4365/4365 = 1/1 in the end.

I guess I just don't understand the allure of this kind of thing because to me TTRPGs are not win condition games. If you have fun though then more power to you.

10 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

You're missing my point. Having a weapon which is optimized to take advantage of those talents and Force powers is much more effective in combat than a "one-size-fits-all" weapon in the hands of that same combatant.

Obviously. My point, however, is that balance-wise saber jockeys don’t need this.

2 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

In @Tramp Graphics defense, he is speaking from the perspective of his signature character Korath Lorren which he invented formulas to "convert" from previous systems (plural), i.e. he did not BUILD it for with respect /heed to the ffg system. You've probably heard the expression "jack of all trades and a master of none/one" well Korath is more like a "7 of all trades and a jack or queen of one". He's got over 1800 xp and a lot of "variety" but no real focus or even "synergy", the only thing mildly impressive about it is the 4 or 5 force dice (the jack or queen) but iits overkill for the minimal number of upgrades in any (and almost every) single power. A well *designed* (or even grown organically in this system) character with about half his xp could do most of what korath can do only better, so for Korath (Tramp's reference point) a heavily tricked out lightsaber IS pretty much a NECESSITY. But it's very understandable that a person with a very different point of reference would have a very different opinion on this issue

This is all well and good, but how does it make an argument for needing to be able to heavily trick out lightsabers in order to deal with modded armor and guns? The exact point I made was that talents and powers make a massive difference. Not using those in an effective manner doesn’t indicate a need for a powerful weapon to make up for it. That same weapon can also be used by characters who did get built to be effective, after all - the issue that the EotE sabers have from the get-go.

1 hour ago, Archlyte said:

Does all that in some way resemble a lightsaber in a role-playing game? Cause it kind of sounds like you are trying to win in a competitive board game or something by piling up the hotels on your property in hopes someone will land on it. You know the GM can simply supply enemies with anything that beats your combo, and so essentially 4365/4365 = 1/1 in the end.

I guess I just don't understand the allure of this kind of thing because to me TTRPGs are not win condition games. If you have fun though then more power to you. 

That's just showing off a rival killing weapon of DOOM! and not really what most people roll with.

Constructing a saber is part of the original trilogy. It's not until Luke builds his own saber that he can call himself a Jedi. The hand down saber from his dad is nice, but it's not his weapon or his crystal. It's just one that he uses until he can and needs to make his own.

The GM decides what crystals are available, the crystals are hella rare and not something you just pick up in a yard sale. Then the weapon grows with the character and becomes a more integral part of the character. They're not just using a lightsaber, they're using their lightsaber. The one they built themselves with the crystal that they found because it was the right one for them. Setting it up this way also allows for a bit more playing around with the saber, if you get captured then having the saber is pretty bad, but if you can remove the crystal and throw the rest away then you can hide the key component and hope to rebuild your saber. Which makes for a somewhat more interesting story and gives more possibilities.

6 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

This is all well and good, but how does it make an argument for needing to be able to heavily trick out lightsabers in order to deal with modded armor and guns? The exact point I made was that talents and powers make a massive difference. Not using those in an effective manner doesn’t indicate a need for a powerful weapon to make up for it. That same weapon can also be used by characters who did get built to be effective, after all - the issue that the EotE sabers have from the get-go.

If he's playing in a game with a bunch of approx equal xp level who were built intelligently but don't have such massively tricked out lightsabers or other main weapon (a true condition, because he got to import his lightsaber instead of having to pay for it) he needs the massively tricked out lightsaber to help him keep pace. if adversaries are appropriate to the xp level of the rest of group, then he needs the massively tricked out lightsaber to help him meet those challenges at an approximately equal power level. So your hypothesis that EVERYONE has massively tricked out gear does not hold in this case, @Tramp Graphics is on a pedestal high above all other players and NPCs in terms of gear which helps his character compensate for its very inefficient build. The starting condition (which he set up) definitely favor his character but given the poor "design" (it's really kind of accidental rather than designed) he needs that to help balance the scales (which I'd guess are still tipped against him).

Neither. Basic lightsaber, no mods. It's the skills that make a great Jedi, not an I-win-button weapon.

As I argued in this thread , lightsaber combat is a lot more fun with the more down-to-earth stats of basic lightsabers. With either an EotE saber or a fully-modded FaD saber, one-on-one combat (which is the heart and soul of lightsaber fighting in Star Wars) is a one-turn initiative contest 90% of the time.

5 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

Neither. Basic lightsaber, no mods. It's the skills that make a great Jedi, not an I-win-button weapon.

As I argued in this thread , lightsaber combat is a lot more fun with the more down-to-earth stats of basic lightsabers. With either an EotE saber or a fully-modded FaD saber, one-on-one combat (which is the heart and soul of lightsaber fighting in Star Wars) is a one-turn initiative contest 90% of the time.

Certainly won't say you're wrong (since you're not), but I could see allowing a kyber crystal to have a few mods so that it can be tweaked a bit.

For instance, the Athiss Cave Crystal from the Beta book (Damage 6, Crit 3, Breach 1, Sunder base, 2 damage mods, 1 reduced crit mod, 1 Vicious mod) would be a good example of lightsaber crystal that can be enhanced as the PCs go, enabling them to improve the weapon but still not getting to the nutty levels a heavily-modded Ilum crystal can reach, as the ACC maxes out at Damage 8, Crit 2, Breach 1, Sunder, Vicious 1.

14 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Certainly won't say you're wrong (since you're not), but I could see allowing a kyber crystal to have a few mods so that it can be tweaked a bit.

Totally. Hilt customizations, double-bladed, etc as well... stuff like that doesn't make combat boring that way 10 damage crit rating 1 does.

4 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

If he's playing in a game with a bunch of approx equal xp level who were built intelligently but don't have such massively tricked out lightsabers or other main weapon (a true condition, because he got to import his lightsaber instead of having to pay for it) he needs the massively tricked out lightsaber to help him keep pace. if adversaries are appropriate to the xp level of the rest of group, then he needs the massively tricked out lightsaber to help him meet those challenges at an approximately equal power level. So your hypothesis that EVERYONE has massively tricked out gear does not hold in this case, @Tramp Graphics is on a pedestal high above all other players and NPCs in terms of gear which helps his character compensate for its very inefficient build. The starting condition (which he set up) definitely favor his character but given the poor "design" (it's really kind of accidental rather than designed) he needs that to help balance the scales (which I'd guess are still tipped against him).

I didn’t say everyone has massively tricked out gear. I’m saying that if massively tricked out gear is available to one character, it should normally be available to all characters. Characters that are built ineffectively are not a useful standard to measure game mechanics against. I understand that @Tramp Graphics ‘ character needs something to compensate for the very inefficient use of XP. I don’t have a problem with it either. But that character is not representative for a normal party.

14 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

Obviously. My point, however, is that balance-wise saber jockeys don’t need this.

That's where we disagree. IF the saber isn't optimized for a given style, it can hurt the user; not literally injure him, but if the lightsaber isn't designed to work with a given set of talents, that saber can impede the character's use of the weapon. For instance, give a Makashi Duelist a saber optimized for a Shien Expert , and the Makashi Duelist would have a hard time using it effectively. However, give him a saber with a curved hilt, and optimized for Makashi, and he'll be much more likely to blow away any other Makashi Duelist of equal skill and talent.

2 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

I didn’t say everyone has massively tricked out gear. I’m saying that if massively tricked out gear is available to one character, it should normally be available to all characters. Characters that are built ineffectively are not a useful standard to measure game mechanics against. I understand that @Tramp Graphics ‘ character needs something to compensate for the very inefficient use of XP. I don’t have a problem with it either. But that character is not representative for a normal party.

@EliasWindrider and I have differing views on what would be considered an "efficient" build. He's more of a Min-Maxer whereas I'm more of a generalist.

I think there is also a meta-issue of how long you want saber duels to last and whether sabers should reliably produce one-shot-one-kill results. Remember, you will typically get to add your soak vs. non-saber damage. But for saber damage you will typically only get your parry, if any, for defense. As a result, for a blaster to reliably do as much damage as a saber to a target it will need more base damage than the saber or some additional levels of pierce, etc. To that end, comparing the base damage of tricked out sabers vs. tricked out blasters, for instance, is meaningless. To get a meaningful comparison you also have to factor in the defenses they will potentially / typically be employed against. Blasters also have the advantage of being ranged weapons. You don't have to close on your target to attack.

In my opinion, for playability, saber damage should be scaled in comparison with the potential maximum effect of the parry talent. Other armors and weapons do not directly correlate and require more complex analysis with more potential variables. Let's say your Jedi have on average 16-20 wounds and you want duels to last 3-4 passes (plus whatever other dramatic actions occur between brute force hack and slash), the maximum average saber damage should not exceed the maximum parry effect by more than 4-5. So, let's say you have Parry-5 and can therefore reduce the saber damage by 7. To achieve that flow the maximum saber damage should not exceed 11-12. This doesn't factor in critical hits, however, which will occasionally decide a fight right then and there. Nor does it take into account high Lightsaber skill ranks, which will add damage through extra successes.

With an EoTE saber (for example) critical hits are going to crop up fairly regularly even at mediocre skill levels. If you have lightsaber skill at 4-5 you will reliably crit most foes and get some extra successes. As a result, I think 10 Damage, Critical 1 is more than effective for most games and is a reasonable upper limit to impose ("It was as though a million min-maxers cried out all at once"). Remember, that same weapon will generally do 10 damage (plus extra successes) to any non-saber wielding opponents even when the wielder has mediocre skill and few if any saber talents. When you have Lightsaber skill 4-5 and some saber-monkey talents extra damage from successes and activated talents starts dropping foes like flies.

What I'm getting at is, even with F&D crystals and sabers, it makes sense for there to be an upper damage limit and that limit should not be "whatever the practical limit for a tricked out blaster" is as that's not an apples-to-apples comparison. I'm running a reasonably powerful Jedi with Lightsaber 4 and a saber with an Etaan crystal that has Damage 8, Critical 1, Breach, Sunder, Parry, Reflect, Vicious-2. He's a consular with the full Sage and Niman Disciple trees, and a good bit of the arbiter tree. He's also deep in the sense and seek trees, typically tags foes with automatic triumphs, lands a criticals 99% of the time, and can reliably sunder most weapons. He's brutal despite his wimpy-wimpy-wimpy 8 damage saber. Its doesn't just boil down to "is that an outsized saber in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?"

Now, if you want a saber that will reliably one-shot foes at mediocre skill levels without criticals or talents, by all means, go big or go home.

@Vondy , That too is where we disagree. A number of the saber crystals available, such as Mephite, Kimber Stone, and Krayt Dragon Pearl, start at 8 or 9 Damage. With the "limits" you would impose. That would basically ban people from modding those crystals or taking such attachments as the Superior Hilt Personalization or Extended Hilt, both of which add to the damage dealt per hit.