So, I know I'm going to be running into an uncommon situation soon... I'm slated to play against an Imperial list that features Emperor Palpatine, along with Quickdraw (who naturally has Lightweight Frame equipped). My squad will have more than one way to assign tractor beam tokens. So my question is... how do we handle mis-rolled dice, when my opponent has Palpatine on the table? For some examples:

• I assign a tractor beam token to Quickdraw using Ketsu Onyo's ability. When I attack, my opponent rolls 2 defense dice without calling Palpatine, then picks up a third and says "I Palp an Evade..."
  • Does he have to start the defense roll over from the beginning, rolling one defense die, then one more, choosing to Palp before one or the other?
  • Or does the two-dice initial roll stand (as agility + tractor effect + lightweight frame), and he neglected to use Palpatine?
• I have previously tractor beamed his Palp shuttle, then when attacking, he calls a Palpatine Evade before remembering he currently has 0 agility...
  • Does he get his Palpatine use back, because there were no dice to roll, therefore no trigger for the ability?
  • Or did he just mistakenly choose to USE his Palpatine for the turn on a zero-dice roll, therefore changing 1 of his 0 results into an evade?

These questions impact a local League Tournament, final match, so while I don't want to be a jerk about it, I want to know how to handle these situations before they come up (outside of constant reminders of "remember the tractor beam token").

7 minutes ago, emeraldbeacon said:

So, I know I'm going to be running into an uncommon situation soon... I'm slated to play against an Imperial list that features Emperor Palpatine, along with Quickdraw (who naturally has Lightweight Frame equipped). My squad will have more than one way to assign tractor beam tokens. So my question is... how do we handle mis-rolled dice, when my opponent has Palpatine on the table? For some examples:

• I assign a tractor beam token to Quickdraw using Ketsu Onyo's ability. When I attack, my opponent rolls 2 defense dice without calling Palpatine, then picks up a third and says "I Palp an Evade..."
  • Does he have to start the defense roll over from the beginning, rolling one defense die, then one more, choosing to Palp before one or the other?
  • Or does the two-dice initial roll stand (as agility + tractor effect + lightweight frame), and he neglected to use Palpatine?
• I have previously tractor beamed his Palp shuttle, then when attacking, he calls a Palpatine Evade before remembering he currently has 0 agility...
  • Does he get his Palpatine use back, because there were no dice to roll, therefore no trigger for the ability?
  • Or did he just mistakenly choose to USE his Palpatine for the turn on a zero-dice roll, therefore changing 1 of his 0 results into an evade?

These questions impact a local League Tournament, final match, so while I don't want to be a jerk about it, I want to know how to handle these situations before they come up (outside of constant reminders of "remember the tractor beam token").

I'd offer up the same answer for both questions: The first time you let him rewind and do it correctly, after that it stands as it was rolled. If this is a final match of a League, even if its local, he should be able to keep an accurate picture of the game-state.

In all cases you rewind.

And you make sure the right number of dice are rolled to begin with.

• I assign a tractor beam token to Quickdraw using Ketsu Onyo's ability. When I attack, my opponent rolls 2 defense dice without calling Palpatine, then picks up a third and says "I Palp an Evade..."
  • Does he have to start the defense roll over from the beginning, rolling one defense die, then one more, choosing to Palp before one or the other?
  • Or does the two-dice initial roll stand (as agility + tractor effect + lightweight frame), and he neglected to use Palpatine?
• I have previously tractor beamed his Palp shuttle, then when attacking, he calls a Palpatine Evade before remembering he currently has 0 agility...
  • Does he get his Palpatine use back, because there were no dice to roll, therefore no trigger for the ability?
  • Or did he just mistakenly choose to USE his Palpatine for the turn on a zero-dice roll, therefore changing 1 of his 0 results into an evade?

He cannot do that. That is the old way of using Palp. The new FAQ Palp says you have to declare using Palp's ability BEFORE rolling, not after.

The FAQ Palp states before rolling dice, since he did not roll any dice, he cannot use Palp.. ergo he gets it back.

When they FAQ'd Palp, everyone made waves about it so any Palp player should know this. If you want to be safe, go over Palp's ability with the other player before the match starts. This is not a bad idea of any powerful combo. Giving someone a do-over oncer is good sportsmanship, but you can't let someone abuse it.

Au contraire - you can roll 0 dice, and you could in theory call palp on a 0-dice roll. It just wouldn't do anything, because you would have 0 results to affect.

It's not about do-overs. Rolling the wrong number of dice is not legal, and it should be rewound and redone legally if it's done incorrectly. If someone has a tractor token, it's up to both players to remember that the tractor token exists, and if it's forgotten, it's up to both players to notice and to rewind the game until it's possible to resolve the situation correctly, regardless of what exactly went wrong.

@shaunmerritt in the Quickdraw situation, he's not adding an Evade result with Palpatine, he's triggering Lightweight Frame and Palping that die before it's rolled.

@emeraldbeacon: in your first example (roll the wrong number of dice for Quickdraw's initial roll, then trigger Palp on the LWF die), start over with the right number of dice. In the second example (mistakenly Palping before a 0-die roll), I guess you could make a case that he's wasted his Palp for the round, but I really can't imagine doing that unless I was sure the player wasn't making a mistake, but rather trying to slip one by me. Maybe not even then, unless it became a repeating problem.

28 minutes ago, digitalbusker said:

@emeraldbeacon: [snip] ...In the second example (mistakenly Palping before a 0-die roll), I guess you could make a case that he's wasted his Palp for the round, but I really can't imagine doing that unless I was sure the player wasn't making a mistake, but rather trying to slip one by me. Maybe not even then, unless it became a repeating problem.

Which, I can't imagine any skilled player would intentionally (ab)use a powerful ability in a manner that gives him absolutely no benefit (Palp-ing a zero-dice roll). The question was more in line with an opponent making a *consistent* mistake... I'm more worried about this kind of exchange:

• "I attack, reroll with Predator... two hits."
• "Ok, I Palp an evade... one focus, becomes an evade."
• "Actually, you have zero agility due to tractor beam."
• "Oh. So just two straight damage?"
• "Well, first, you rolled defense dice when you shouldn't have, so we rewind, and you roll the correct number of dice - zero. Then, since you called Palpatine, you convert one of your zero dice... meaning zero. Then, yes, two damage."
• "...but if I don't roll dice, I wouldn't Palpatine. How can I change a result if there are no results?"
• "Zero is a number of dice you can roll."
• "............"
• "............................."

The abuse comes if you forget the Tractor Beam token and the shuttle avoids a damage that it shouldn't have.

And if you're worried about that exchange: you have the power to ensure that that exchange never happens.

15 minutes ago, emeraldbeacon said:

Which, I can't imagine any skilled player would intentionally (ab)use a powerful ability in a manner that gives him absolutely no benefit (Palp-ing a zero-dice roll). The question was more in line with an opponent making a *consistent* mistake... I'm more worried about this kind of exchange:

• "I attack, reroll with Predator... two hits."
• "Ok, I Palp an evade... one focus, becomes an evade."
• "Actually, you have zero agility due to tractor beam."
• "Oh. So just two straight damage?"
• "Well, first, you rolled defense dice when you shouldn't have, so we rewind, and you roll the correct number of dice - zero. Then, since you called Palpatine, you convert one of your zero dice... meaning zero. Then, yes, two damage."
• "...but if I don't roll dice, I wouldn't Palpatine. How can I change a result if there are no results?"
• "Zero is a number of dice you can roll."
• "............"
• "............................."

The player without Palpatine is being a tool, not to mention arguably cheating. Because the failure to roll the correct number of dice is both of their mistake, not just one player's, and the situation should be rolled back to before the mistake happened, which is 'confirm correct number of defence dice' which is a step before Palp's trigger of rolling those dice...

8 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

In all cases you rewind.

And you make sure the right number of dice are rolled to begin with.

Depends on what you mean by "in all cases."

• From the FAQ (p.7) :
• Rolling Dice: When a player is required to roll attack or defense dice, if he rolls too many dice, he must pick up all of his dice and reroll them. If he rolls too few dice, he must leave the roll intact and roll the required number of additional dice, adding the new results to the original roll.
• When a player is instructed to reroll a number of dice, he must choose all of the dice that he will reroll before rerolling any.
• If a rolled die is cocked (not level), it must be rerolled.

So if QD rolls too many dice into the pool, the entire pool is invalidated. However, you don't rewind if too few dice are rerolled.

//

As to Palp vs 0 Dice, at least the first time I'd give them a mulligan, and warn them for future mistakes. If the ship has LWF, however, (say a double-tractored QD) I'd feel comfortable presuming that they specified their LWF roll, rather than their normal agility roll.

//

Rolling two dice initially is where things get tricky. Not in the "what the rules are" sense--the right thing to do is to rewind and start the roll from the beginning. However, sometimes folks will roll the LWF die in with the original roll, just because it's quicker, even though it's technically wrong. I know I probably have sometimes. Most of the time, it doesn't matter. If someone is doing this to get a preview of the dice "oh, I rolled too many by accident" when all blanks show up or saying "oh, I included my LWF in the initial roll" when paint shows up, well, that's either someone who's quite sloppy, or unsporting conduct....

If palp is on the board, you can't assume they're rolling all their dice together, which is indeed what I do with LWF in all cases except that one.

E: and obviously, I meant in all cases of rolling too many dice

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

If palp is on the board, you can't assume they're rolling all their dice together, which is indeed what I do with LWF in all cases except that one.

E: and obviously, I meant in all cases of rolling too many dice

Exactly.

Please note: My upcoming opponent is a great guy, and our friendship predates X-Wing, so I'm more doing this as a preliminary precaution to figure out how to handle honest mistakes without being too douchey.

That, and I'm trying to figure out how best to troll him SO HARD.