Just now, VanderLegion said:

If the lowest initiative is the 4 we saw, it may well be worth the points. If it’s a 1, it’ll be a harder sell

I think they'll still have the Delta in at a PS 2 without an ept and the Onyx at PS 4 with an EPT.

5 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Lando is going to be great (at r0 and without "another friendly", he can target himself)

He's also very well designed, as his ability is dependent on being to fully execute a limited set of manuevers.

Lando just needs Nien Nunb (decrease difficulty of your bank maneuvers) as his copilot to open up the dial a bit.

Yup, new Lando is an absolute BEAST.

As is only appropriate.

Nien is something like 6 points IIRC, which is WAY more than the 2-equivalent that Mk2 cost in 1e, probably because of Lando pilot, not to mention how good he has the potential to be with the red boosts on the Falcon and red rolls on the 2400.

Looking over several threads here and on Reddit, it's really becoming apparent to me that turrets are going to be totally different monsters in 2.0.

Here's what I mean: In 1.0, turrets were a simple matter of mathematical efficiency (how much damage can I deal vs damage I take), disregarding all maneuvering except arc-dodging, and maxing offensive and defensive mods. But here in 2.0, it seems turrets are going to really struggle with that approach: they're a lot more killable and they won't get their mods as easily, both meaning that the pure math of "damage output vs damage taken" for a single attack per turn doesn't really add up.

Now, absent 1e phantom effects and 1e Gunner and Luke crew, it's seriously looking like the only way to make mathematical efficiency is to get multiple arcs on targets every turn (or at least as much as possible). For everything that's said about focused fire (which is common knowledge for X-Wing as we know it), getting an attack on your focused target and another target is still better than only getting one attack on your focused target. The trick is that getting those multiple arcs is hard. But seeing so many gunners with similar effects, it's looking more and more like that will be fundamental to the way 2.0 turrets even operate.

What does this mean? Flying 2e turrets to max potential requires considerable skill! I have never been more excited about the state of the game since I first saw it on the shelf at Barnes & Noble.

Of course, you can take Luke as a cop-out to guarantee you do always get your one target in arc, but once again, the mathematical efficiency (that used to be what turrets thrived on) goes from already sketchy for a naked turret to considerably WORSE with gunner Luke. If you use him, you must be some stellar arc-dodger or you'll die faster than you can turn around. AND, if you want any offensive mods, you'd better make sure you get them in arc without using Luke's ability whenever possible.

It almost seems like even Luke rewards good flying, albeit with different parameters.

I highly doubt you'll need to get multi-shot turrets same as you didn't need to get multi-shot SF to make them great.

And while, in a vacuum, it's better to get additional attacks even if they aren't focused, it probably isn't worth paying a lot of points for a capability that is very difficult to effectively wield. Bistan's the only guy who won't make you bend over backwards to actually use at all. He, gunner Luke, and "nothing" are probably the only options out of everyone spoiled thus far for the YTs.

Gunner/Ezra/Han seem only worth fen-angling if your ship has a fixed primary weapon making life easier for you, since you don't have to do something as silly as diving in-between the enemy squadron.

6 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Gunner/Ezra/Han seem only worth fen-angling if your ship has a fixed primary weapon making life easier for you, since you don't have to do something as silly as diving in-between the enemy squadron.

But diving in-between the enemy squadron is so much fun! Eh, maybe you're right, but I really wouldn't be surprised if turrets became something completely new and unexpected (and maybe even wholesome) in 2e. I feel like they must have gotten effective use out of those gunners in play-testing or they wouldn't have been included. I have yet to see a dud card from this new edition (though Esege is on the line - glad I don't fly K-Wings!).

Bistan... I don't know. You roll Crit-Eye-Blank on your first attack, and you then have to ask yourself whether to keep the single crit so you can attack again or go Crit-Hit and forego the other attack. Still seems pretty situational, but maybe that's just my natural pessimism.

2 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

But diving in-between the enemy squadron is so much fun! Eh, maybe you're right, but I really wouldn't be surprised if turrets became something completely new and unexpected (and maybe even wholesome) in 2e. I feel like they must have gotten effective use out of those gunners in play-testing or they wouldn't have been included. I have yet to see a dud card from this new edition (though Esege is on the line - glad I don't fly K-Wings!).

Bistan... I don't know. You roll Crit-Eye-Blank on your first attack, and you then have to ask yourself whether to keep the single crit so you can attack again or go Crit-Hit and forego the other attack. Still seems pretty situational, but maybe that's just my natural pessimism.

I think he gets paired with Perceptive Copilot a lot (a.k.a. 2.0 RecSpec).

2 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

But diving in-between the enemy squadron is so much fun! Eh, maybe you're right, but I really wouldn't be surprised if turrets became something completely new and unexpected (and maybe even wholesome) in 2e. I feel like they must have gotten effective use out of those gunners in play-testing or they wouldn't have been included. I have yet to see a dud card from this new edition (though Esege is on the line - glad I don't fly K-Wings!).

Bistan... I don't know. You roll Crit-Eye-Blank on your first attack, and you then have to ask yourself whether to keep the single crit so you can attack again or go Crit-Hit and forego the other attack. Still seems pretty situational, but maybe that's just my natural pessimism.

Splitting fire is always inefficient, it just depends on how much the gunner costs. Bistan's thing is just that he CAN be used, whereas other gunners on yts (lacking a primary firing arc) are going to be used like once every other game. WAY too fiddly.

Bistan's probably gonna be wedded to Preceptive Copilot (two focus), which itself isn't bad with 2 agility YT-2400s or perhaps even Han's fit of re-rolling everything

I can see a certain kind of value in being able to Init-kill at 7 with Han Gunner, but I suspect that the double tap feature is going to make that card pricey.

8 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Splitting fire is always inefficient, it just depends on how much the gunner costs. Bistan's thing is just that he CAN be used, whereas other gunners on yts (lacking a primary firing arc) are going to be used like once every other game. WAY too fiddly.

While I agree with you in terms of what's effective in 1.0, I'm curious how the 2e meta might change this. Against 2-3 ship lists, the SF double-tap was a non-starter. But We could well be seeing 4-6 ship lists as quite a common occurrence. What then?

Then you don't dive into the midst of 4-6 ship lists unless you want to feed your YT to the opponent. The Spec Ops double just isn't a terribly feasible ability in even the best of cases, let alone on a large base, high priority target.

BIstan might see play, since he's only worried about one arc. The focus limitation is good because it requires skillful flying, and it's FAR more reasonable than Vet Gunner/Han/Ezra on opposite facing arcs

21 hours ago, Ixidor said:

Or possibly a rebel TIE. Maybe even AP-5 in the Sheathipede. Or maybe... MAYBE... a cheap a-wing (I don't really expect these to be sub-30, though).

A-Wings are going to start at about 30/32 points

1 hour ago, MatCauthonReborn said:

A-Wings are going to start at about 30/32 points

Is that based on 1e cost minus Chardaan? Or did you see some 2e info somewhere?

I spoke to Alex at the weekend. He was 90% sure it was 32 but said it might be 30. Which makes sense given that the Prototype effectively has been given a free double action that it couldn't before

54 minutes ago, MatCauthonReborn said:

I spoke to Alex at the weekend. He was 90% sure it was 32 but said it might be 30. Which makes sense given that the Prototype effectively has been given a free double action that it couldn't before

That’s great. Having the Luke crew equal the same points value as an A-wing feels right.

Yeah, that's a great comparison, you're literally sacrificing an extra ship, which is a block, another attack, better distribution of points in competitive, etc. to gain the ability to keep ships in arc whenever and also maybe get a Force mod.

On 6/3/2018 at 2:11 PM, UnitOmega said:

This is why slots aren't printed anymore. They can remove (or even add) slots if interactions get too crazy. Dash just too much with expert handling? 2400 loses it's Pilot Talent slot.

Cutting a whole slot doesn't sound like a great solution to that problem, but with the app they could easily make Expert Handling cost 6 more points for Dash only.

I wanted to add this developer feedback on Luke Gunner to this thread:

MB: Clearly, you're talking about Luke (Gunner). Obviously, this card has been contentious. There are a number of interesting factors at play in the design of this card, some of which people have picked up on and others we want to highlight here:

1). Some cards are calibrated more for certain modes of play than others. Luke (Gunner) is a great example of a card that is targeted—and costed toward—use at the casual level. It helps new players get a handle on the mechanics of turrets, but rewards them for “proper” use of the rotate action and good flying (because they can spend the Force point on modifications instead of rotation). However, its high cost means that taking it at a tournament level probably isn’t optimal for many builds.

2). Speaking of cost, one thing that has changed enormously in Second Edition is the thought process behind costing upgrades. Simply put, upgrades can cost a lot more than they did before. Previously, individual upgrades only very rarely cost more than 10-20% of a ship’s cost. Now, an upgrade that brings as much benefit as an inexpensive ship (such as Luke (Gunner)) will cost as much as an inexpensive ship.

3). Many people have pointed this out, but it bears repeating: Luke (Gunner) interacts differently with the core conceit that flying ships is important, but it doesn’t invalidate it, because Luke (Gunner) is always better if you don’t need to use his ability to rotate the turret, which you accomplish by flying your ship correctly.

4). Finally, and this gets most to your point, one thing people haven’t picked upon as much is that Luke (Gunner) fits in very closely with the mechanical theme of the Force in Second Edition. The Force allows characters to do things that would normally be “impossible” (yes, even for a computer). Force powers and Force user characters get to do things nobody else can—but they have to choose which tricks they want to be able to do, and they pay for this flexibility in points.

FB: What he said.

On 6/6/2018 at 3:10 AM, DagobahDave said:

Cutting a whole slot doesn't sound like a great solution to that problem, but with the app they could easily make Expert Handling cost 6 more points for Dash only.

It's probably not the right way to deal with this hypothetical issue but it's another tool that they have for tuning, and that's a good thing. They specifically mentioned in the AMA being able to add a slot to a generic pilot to boost it is one way they might tune balance. If they can add it, I think they can do the opposite as well.

2 hours ago, Glucose98 said:

4). Finally, and this gets most to your point, one thing people haven’t picked upon as much is that Luke (Gunner) fits in very closely with the mechanical theme of the Force in Second Edition. The Force allows characters to do things that would normally be “impossible” (yes, even for a computer). Force powers and Force user characters get to do things nobody else can—but they have to choose which tricks they want to be able to do, and they pay for this flexibility in points.

This makes me smily and giggly.

21 hours ago, thomedwards said:

This makes me smily and giggly.

Although, by that logic, Vader should be able to chain actions even when stressed.

Luke ignores stress... Why doesn't his Daddy?

I think you know why.

20 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

Although, by that logic, Vader should be able to chain actions even when stressed.

Luke ignores stress... Why doesn't his Daddy?

I think you know why.

Kanan requires a maneuver to be fully executed, while Luke doesn't.

Luke is straight up bad design, regardless of cost.

1 hour ago, HolySorcerer said:

Kanan requires a maneuver to be fully executed, while Luke doesn't.

Luke is straight up bad design, regardless of cost.

Or faction

On 6/5/2018 at 7:25 PM, UnitOmega said:

Yeah, that's a great comparison, you're literally sacrificing an extra ship, which is a block, another attack, better distribution of points in competitive, etc. to gain the ability to keep ships in arc whenever and also maybe get a Force mod.

Miranda and Dash in 1e has 22/24pts of upgrades added onto them sometimes. That is enough for Fenn+HSCP in your squad, or snapshot ezra, or an entire ps1 auzituck. Still not better than 24pts of upgrades on Miranda and Dash.

Why would Nymranda want two TLTs in their list when they can have entire Z-95? If the upgrade is worth the points, no ship can replace its effectiveness.

In comparison to Luke gunner, if my big *** turret ship cant keep arc on a **** interceptor boosting and barrel rolling, why would I think a ps1 Awing has a chance? So, drop the stupid Awing, add on Luke, and now I shoot the interceptor EVERY TIME without effort or skill. Much better than a stupid Awing.

1 hour ago, wurms said:

Miranda and Dash in 1e has 22/24pts of upgrades added onto them sometimes. That is enough for Fenn+HSCP in your squad, or snapshot ezra, or an entire ps1 auzituck. Still not better than 24pts of upgrades on Miranda and Dash.

Why would Nymranda want two TLTs in their list when they can have entire Z-95? If the upgrade is worth the points, no ship can replace its effectiveness.

In comparison to Luke gunner, if my big *** turret ship cant keep arc on a **** interceptor boosting and barrel rolling, why would I think a ps1 Awing has a chance? So, drop the stupid Awing, add on Luke, and now I shoot the interceptor EVERY TIME without effort or skill. Much better than a stupid Awing.

Miranda in particular has every design problem the game has rolled into one. Dash, on the other hand, is an inherently expensive ship, with 12 points going towards an essential combo.

Your PS1 A-wing will, competently flown, have an excellent chance of blocking soontir, leading to his death in a single turn to your super-accurate turret gun. Adding the overpriced Luke into the equation just doesn't help.