Just now, VanderLegion said:

Without x7 it was also blatantly overpriced. And it’s balanced fine after the x7 nerf

The old estimate is that the defender was 3 points overpriced. x7 was a two point discount and an easily accessible free action (Worth about 3 points, compared to Predator, PtL, etc). The post nerf defender wasn't fine against the old standard, it was just left behind by continuing power creep.

3 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

9 points in 1e terms. Shield is 4, engine is 4, Mk 2 engine is 1 (2e has white 1 banks, which is actually a rather important buff, not a “slight” improvement), gained the native evade action so you can still get an evade if you want after going slow or with coordinate. And the lowest initiative we’be seen so far is a 4, which would be comparable to the 32 point (after x7) royal guards, and that’s before the improvements.

Additionally, it’s one of only two chassis to my recollection that can stack focus/evade by default, and the only one with 3 agility.

You would also never buy a shield upgrade as it wasn't worth its points, and you'd only ever see engine upgrade on Ryad, and then only occasionally. Using mod pricing to price the base chassis never works, as mods are always at a premium.

The Defenders are the best of the best. I don't have a problem paying for them, but I want access to the high tech system slot if I'm paying for a high tech ship. They gave systems to the clunky E-Wing, why shouldn't the more expensive Defender get it?

3 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

You would also never buy a shield upgrade as it wasn't worth its points, and you'd only ever see engine upgrade on Ryad, and then only occasionally. Using mod pricing to price the base chassis never works, as mods are always at a premium.

The Defenders are the best of the best. I don't have a problem paying for them, but I want access to the high tech system slot if I'm paying for a high tech ship. They gave systems to the clunky E-Wing, why shouldn't the more expensive Defender get it?

The E-wing is more or less the New Republic's version of the Defender. It wasn't supposed to be clunky. And the system slot isn't for high tech fighters (That's the tech slot, assuming its still a thing), it's for fighters with sophisticated onboard computer systems, and I don't recall if that was something the defender's developers prioritized.

8 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

You would also never buy a shield upgrade as it wasn't worth its points, and you'd only ever see engine upgrade on Ryad, and then only occasionally. Using mod pricing to price the base chassis never works, as mods are always at a premium.

The Defenders are the best of the best. I don't have a problem paying for them, but I want access to the high tech system slot if I'm paying for a high tech ship. They gave systems to the clunky E-Wing, why shouldn't the more expensive Defender get it?

I know you wouldn’t buy the full price upgrades when building them into the ship, but it still adds up, especially with other changes.

2 minutes ago, Squark said:

The E-wing is more or less the New Republic's version of the Defender. It wasn't supposed to be clunky. And the system slot isn't for high tech fighters (That's the tech slot, assuming its still a thing), it's for fighters with sophisticated onboard computer systems, and I don't recall if that was something the defender's developers prioritized.

Well the E-Wing looks like they let Homer Simpson develop it, and iirc in the lore it was very unreliable. The Defender should absolutely have the Sensor slot, and if the base model doesn't, hopefully they'll have an Elite config that adds that as well as some firepower upgrades.

7 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

Well the E-Wing looks like they let Homer Simpson develop it, and iirc in the lore it was very unreliable. The Defender should absolutely have the Sensor slot, and if the base model doesn't, hopefully they'll have an Elite config that adds that as well as some firepower upgrades.

The initial run of E-wings were unreliable due to issues with their advanced computers originally only working with the expensive, hard to replace R7 Asteomech I believe. And the stupid third laser not working right.

1 minute ago, VanderLegion said:

I know you wouldn’t buy the full price upgrades when building them into the ship, but it still adds up, especially with other changes.

Having boost is also less valuable, unless you can chain it.

The defender was a dangerous ship, and in 1.0 the 2.0 version would be broken. But now its much less so. Having all the actions available to you isn't so great when you can only do 1 per turn. It is still good, but it isn't great. An A-wing can outmaneuver the Defender, regardless of the upgrades on them (as far as we have seen).

I'm not saying that the Defender is bad, not even close, but it can definitely take a system slot and even a double tap (in bullseye arc) and still be fairly manageable, and true to itself.

What System upgrade breaks the defender? FCS? please. Adv Sensors? Unlikely (especially since it shuts down Full throttle). Collision detector? Nope.

A bullseye doubletap is extremely limited, especially on a ship that cannot turn very well. Plus, the configuration can still have the cannon limitation, to avoid HLC defenders. An Ion + Primary double tap is fair, I think. And again, true to the ship itself.

yeah, not terribly feeling the 72 point defender

Guessing they based it off of 1.0 IG-88 costs


On the other hand, it is absolutely hilarious that Miranda is apparently less expensive than your "basic wookie". It doesn't entirely bode well for the K being able to do anything interesting if it's that cheap

5 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

yeah, not terribly feeling the 72 point defender

Guessing they based it off of 1.0 IG-88 costs


On the other hand, it is absolutely hilarious that Miranda is apparently less expensive than your "basic wookie". It doesn't entirely bode well for the K being able to do anything interesting if it's that cheap

They're turning the K-Wing into an ordnance carrier instead of endless TLT and Bomblets. I think they've said that it doesn't have the turret slot anymore, so it's limited to a 2-die primary and whatever ordnance it equips. The Wookies need no upgrades to be decent.

4 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

They're turning the K-Wing into an ordnance carrier instead of endless TLT and Bomblets. I think they've said that it doesn't have the turret slot anymore, so it's limited to a 2-die primary and whatever ordnance it equips. The Wookies need no upgrades to be decent.

Problem is we already got the Y for that.

Rather than an ordnance carrier, I was rather hoping it'd be the Rebel "Bomb Launcher" since they've lost Nym and the Resistance bomber. Then you could put Bombadier in the gunner slot.

Just now, ficklegreendice said:

Problem is we already got the Y for that.

Rather than an ordnance carrier, I was rather hoping it'd be the Rebel "Bomb Launcher" since they've lost Nym and the Resistance bomber. Then you could put Bombadier in the gunner slot. 

Well it will still have two bomb slots and a white reload, so it will still be their best true bomber, and it does have both a gunner and a crew, so you can run Sabine and Bombardier.

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

Problem is we already got the Y for that.

Rather than an ordnance carrier, I was rather hoping it'd be the Rebel "Bomb Launcher" since they've lost Nym and the Resistance bomber. Then you could put Bombadier in the gunner slot.

The K-wing is to the Y, what the Punisher is to the Bomber.

It's a shootier, more ordnance-y version. The Y- can take control turrets, the K can do more with missiles and torps. Plus regen, plus slam. The Y is much worse in returning after an attack run. Miranda can cover her butt, slam reload and regen, to return. Plus it has a crew AND a gunner, the Y-wing will only have a gunner.

At 30 points I wonder if Luke is intended as a "crutch" card. Something that can help newer players but is too expensive to be competitive.

I'm sorry, I didn't see the point cost on the Google doc. Can someone help me find it? Or, even better, help direct me to the source of the cost information? Thanks!

15 minutes ago, Vandenberg said:

At 30 points I wonder if Luke is intended as a "crutch" card. Something that can help newer players but is too expensive to be competitive.

Maybe, but I still feel people are discounting how valuable he is to good players as well. He really opens up the dial on the Falcon and Outrider if they don't have to worry about their facing, making it easier for them to maneuver and dodge. He also makes your PS not matter as you cannot be dodged at all. With Luke you are firing every turn, and some of those turns with force tokens for mods. Luke is worth 30 points on a fat turret.

Dash with Luke Gunner is crazy good. 4 dice all day. ouch.

18 minutes ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

Dash with Luke Gunner is crazy good. 4 dice all day. ouch.

And by the numbers we’ve seen, 128 points before any other upgrades. That’s 64 points in 1e, where standard lone wolf Rey dash is only 55. By the time you give him the outrider and various other upgrades, you’re getting REAL slim for another ship.

140 after the outrider title. And that’s still without any points spent on crew, talent or mod

3 hours ago, Squark said:

a PS 1 pilot on the empire's most advanced starship always felt weird.

SFS Engineer: Grand Admiral Zaarin! We've just finished manufacturing the first lot of TIE Defenders!

Zaarin: Excellent! Have all the best pilots under my command outfitted with them!

SFS Engineer: Ok, and where should we send the rest of them? The 181st would probably be a good choice...

Zaarin: No, no! They do well enough with their current equipment as it is. We should send the rest of them to the Imperial Academy, to help out all those rookies. (<quietly to himself> and they'll have a much harder time going toe-to-toe against my troops once I start my coup)

SFS Engineer: What was that last bit, sir?

Zaarin: I said, "It sure is great being a loyal subject of the Empire, with no traitorous thoughts whatsoever! Long live the Emperor!"

SFS Engineer: Long live the Emperor!

2 hours ago, Squark said:

The initial run of E-wings were unreliable due to issues with their advanced computers originally only working with the expensive, hard to replace R7 Asteomech I believe. And the stupid third laser not working right.

It wasn't supposed to work right; it was supposed to work straight ahead. No wonder they were having issues!

2 hours ago, Squark said:

The x7 Delta was also blatant power creep, breaking the old efficiency standards set by the Z-95 and Tie Fighter*. 2.0 seems to be returning to the Tie Fighter standard, so I ignored the discount from the x7 title.

*Or perhaps a response to existing power creep like the Wave IV Falcon and TLT. Potatoe, Potatoh.

One nice thing with the app is that once power creep begins in earnest, ships like the Z-95 and TIE Fighter can always get their costs adjusted down to stay relevant.

23 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

It wasn't supposed to work right; it was supposed to work straight ahead. No wonder they were having issues!

Here are some preliminary rough MathyWing v2.46 numbers for these new pilot pricings. 100% efficiency is referenced to the generic T-65 X-wing costed at 42 points. (42 is just my cost projection)

• In1 Defender at 72 points = 89.3% (my estimate has been 68. I am very glad they are being conservative with this ship. My % number is very likely on the low side. 72 is a good starting point.)
• Corran at 74 points = 108.8% (my estimate was 78 - 84 points. Noticeably undercosted. Corran should surely cost a good deal more than a base defender. Right?? The E-wing got tons of upgrades & a powerful ship ability.)
• Auzituck at 46 points = 93.1% (46 was my exact estimate. My % number is likely low as my estimates for re-enforce are conservative.)
• AP-5 at 30 points = 109.1% (33 points was my estimate. Co-ordinate is powerful. This confirms my fear that Fenn Rau will be severely undercosted on release.)

I am not very confident with my numbers for turrets. It is very hard to settle on a number for how much less effective the mobile arcs are compared with 1e 360 degree turrets. I assume I'm currently overating their effectiveness, but it wouldn't be my much.

• Han Solo at 92 points = 110.8% (my estimate was 100 - 103 points. He comes with boost action! Boost on large base turret ship is alone worth about 12 points. I include Falcon title in my estimate at 2 cost. If falcon title costs 6, then Han at 92 is more reasonable. And if engine upgrade is expensive, that would balance things)
• Dash at 98 points = 108.7% (my estimate was 104 - 107 points. And Dash gets gunner + crew. All this very likely leads to Dash crushing everything less than In5)
• Miranda at 45 points ( I didn't run her exact numbers yet. My projected cost for the K-wing generic is a conservative 40 points. Miranda may still be the only playable K-wing.)

If the generic T-65 X-wing costs 40 points, which changes the reference point, that goes most of the way towards balancing out with the powerful named pilots. I'm glad to see Luke Gunner at 30 points. Also, higher upgrade costs in general is good.

2 minutes ago, Dengar5 said:

Here are some preliminary rough MathyWing v2.46 numbers for these new pilot pricings. 100% efficiency is referenced to the generic T-65 X-wing costed at 42 points. (42 is just my cost projection)

• In1 Defender at 72 points = 89.3% (my estimate has been 68. I am very glad they are being conservative with this ship. My % number is very likely on the low side. 72 is a good starting point.)
• Corran at 74 points = 108.8% (my estimate was 78 - 84 points. Noticeably undercosted. Corran should surely cost a good deal more than a base defender. Right?? The E-wing got tons of upgrades & a powerful ship ability.)
• Auzituck at 46 points = 93.1% (46 was my exact estimate. My % number is likely low as my estimates for re-enforce are conservative.)
• AP-5 at 30 points = 109.1% (33 points was my estimate. Co-ordinate is powerful. This confirms my fear that Fenn Rau will be severely undercosted on release.)

I am not very confident with my numbers for turrets. It is very hard to settle on a number for how much less effective the mobile arcs are compared with 1e 360 degree turrets. I assume I'm currently overating their effectiveness, but it wouldn't be my much.

• Han Solo at 92 points = 110.8% (my estimate was 100 - 103 points. He comes with boost action! Boost on large base turret ship is alone worth about 12 points. I include Falcon title in my estimate at 2 cost. If falcon title costs 6, then Han at 92 is more reasonable. And if engine upgrade is expensive, that would balance things)
• Dash at 98 points = 108.7% (my estimate was 104 - 107 points. And Dash gets gunner + crew. All this very likely leads to Dash crushing everything less than In5)
• Miranda at 45 points ( I didn't run her exact numbers yet. My projected cost for the K-wing generic is a conservative 40 points. Miranda may still be the only playable K-wing.)

If the generic T-65 X-wing costs 40 points, which changes the reference point, that goes most of the way towards balancing out with the powerful named pilots. I'm glad to see Luke Gunner at 30 points. Also, higher upgrade costs in general is good.

Looking specifically at the T-65 X-Wing.

The costs as predicted are starting to make some sense in terms of generic ships as the baseline. So in 2.0 its likely you could run a max of four T-65 X-Wings just like in 1.0.

Its entirely possible that they may 'undercost' the ship slightly so you could run 5 in a single list. To sell more ships and refresh the meta a little I'm thinking they will cost generics a little below equivalent 1.0 costs for the 'old' 100pt squad lists. This is just a hunch.

2 hours ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

Looking specifically at the T-65 X-Wing.

The costs as predicted are starting to make some sense in terms of generic ships as the baseline. So in 2.0 its likely you could run a max of four T-65 X-Wings just like in 1.0.

Its entirely possible that they may 'undercost' the ship slightly so you could run 5 in a single list. To sell more ships and refresh the meta a little I'm thinking they will cost generics a little below equivalent 1.0 costs for the 'old' 100pt squad lists. This is just a hunch.

I think that just about every ship will be aggressively "under costed" to prevent upgrade-wing from dominating completely again. I'd expect 4 T-65s to be the max fr thematic reasons, and we know the Academy TIE is still 24 [12] points, but I believe the rest of the aces will be undercosted, like taking the generic Interceptor down to 17, even with its built-in ability.

As for Luke, he's really not a concern at all. Mobile arc ships are going to almost universally behave like Asajj, leading to a death-spiral like manoeuvre sequence. Ezra is already a far superior crew option.

2.0 Mobile arcs DO NOT all behave like asajj

Yts and jumps don't have a primary arc (primary weapon, area is not filled in on base). The mobile arcs face opposite sides, making ezra/vet gunner/Han crap and literally useless of you're sidewinding along the table edge.

Shadowcaster type arcs (lancer, moldy hwk, vcx, y) got nerfed to 2 dice mobiles, apart from ion . These guys don't care much about Luke because their turrets kinda suck and they can probably double-tap with vetgunner/Ezra etc

It's my hope that all the time they put into thinking about what needs to fixed in 1.0, they are going to actually balance the ideas that were in 1.0 that just caused OP issues in game-play that we all had to suffer through. I don't give a s**t if Luke is 100 points, if he creates an OP 1.0 element that the designers clearly stated they didn't like and wanted to remove, he shouldn't even exist. I'm a black and white kinda guy; if the snake is poisonous, you just don't handle it, no matter how good your gloves and jacket is. Maybe that's just me. It makes me scratch my head. His ability could still be cool, and useful, and thematic without the game-play break.

I want to like and use Luke in games, he's an iconic mate! Sadly, this ability they gave him will negate him from positive thought and blacklist him from our pint games. You shat on Luke FFG....why?!?