9 minutes ago, Talonbane Cobra said:

Thing is what should they have said instead?

I dunno, which means it was probably not a great idea to bulk out the cardboard with extra dials if you can't explain it well. Maybe they should've just said that it will support 2 of each ship, then anything else in there just looks like a bonus?

But in the long run I doubt it really matters.

I've had an epiphany!

Rather than using the correct ships insert why not use a base size, faction and initiative matched insert, even if it does say the wrong name, who cares the model on the peg let's you know at it is really.

I plan on getting two scum kits, and one rebel. I think it'll only be rebel ships that give me a problem

14 hours ago, Darth 2Face said:

This is what really frustrates me. If I want to run two ships now, I purchased two ships and have everything to run those ships in any combination. Because of this, when they previously said the kits contained what is necessary to run two of a ship, it was reasonable to expect it would contain the content to run two of any combination. It feels more like we have what we need to run 1 1/2 of some of these.

This could be even worse with Imperials, with more generics. I'm expecting the 4 TIE fighters to only have content for two Academy pilots now.

I have a medium sized collection; one of each kit covered what I needed pretty well. I was hoping the extras could be given to players with smaller collections as a way to keep more players That's probably not very doable now. The player base here was already pretty split. This is going to drive more away. I've been supportive of 2.0 up to this point, but now I'm more cautious.

So yes. The Imperial playstyle niche, as STATED by the developers for 2.0 is swarm play.

Let's say, I have the inclination to play to that strength, by running 3 generic generic Interceptors in my list, with a support Lambda.

How many conversion kits should I buy? I have 3 Interceptor models, and I'm really happy with them. I was delighted to see that the conversion kit contains 3 interceptors.

However... how can anyone seriously expect me to buy more than 1 coversion kit, when there are NO ships I own, that exceed the number in the kit, except for TIEs, which I am fine with running 4 with. The rest I just paint for the Aces.

But you know... It's indefensible to say I should buy more conversion kits for my collection.

THIS IS THE FACTION IDENTITY. This is the thing we are supposed to get support for. You can't say that this is the Imperial faction identity, and screw us like that. How are we supposed to run swarms, the very thing you suggest we do, with the product you suggest us to buy to do that?

But they could have just said 2 Interceptors in the kit.

I am in a similar boat to you for interceptors, I have 5 and getting 2 kits so will have 6 dials for 5 squints and still not be able to use them all as the same generic.

One Thing I really want to do as well is have 5 x-wings, i'm guessing getting 2 Saws Renegades is what i'll have to do there?

Truth is though that generally I like to fly a named pilot along with a bunch of generics of the same ship type so i'll be fine mostly. I get the annoyance, I do. But when you look at the price per ship of the kit I think it's really good value and I know I can sell extra stuff to people what need them.

Also someone might be in that same situation as you if they had say ... 3 x-wings and 2 of everything else.

They would need to buy a second conversion kit just for the single extra x-wing. There's all sorts of situations where this might be true, and there's no way to fix that, so focusing on it begin the case just due to generics isn't really fair. Just think of it like the conversion supports 2 + sometimes 3 Interceptors. basically they've thrown an extra dial in and we are moaning about getting extra stuff.

13 hours ago, elfholme said:

I’m not a lawyer, but I do have a degree in marketing. I never took their statements to mean that one Rebel CK would allow me to convert all my Rebel ships. Some people just made assumptions that don’t seem to be playing out.

Hey, since you’re in/from marketing, you should check out this good article from Harvard Business Review about using truth to deceive people by exploiting people’s preconceived notions to create a predictable and false conclusion. It’s called paltering.

If you don’t have time to read it, here’s the important part.

“Importantly, though, targets of paltering view paltering as far less ethical than palterers do, our research finds. In fact, whereas palterers are likely to focus on their use of truthful statements to justify the ethicality of their behavior, targets focus on being actively deceived and conclude that the use of paltering is unethical.”

”All this suggests that you should think twice before you succumb to the temptation to palter in work situations in which you feel tempted to hide information that may put you at a disadvantage. Though paltering may seem the most helpful strategy in such situations in the moment, don’t forget that if the people you’re interacting with discover that you deceived them, they are still going to feel that you misled them. And that could harm your relationship with them.”

In short, most people perceive strategically hiding the truth to be just as deceptive as lying. That why we also call it a lie by omission.

https://hbr.org/2016/10/theres-a-word-for-using-truthful-facts-to-deceive-paltering

46 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

THIS IS THE FACTION IDENTITY. This is the thing we are supposed to get support for. You can't say that this is the Imperial faction identity, and screw us like that. How are we supposed to run swarms, the very thing you suggest we do, with the product you suggest us to buy to do that?

1. Three interceptors does not a swarm make.

2. A swarm does not have to be uniform.

3. You can run a swarm with ships of different types like a mix of TIE Fighters and Interceptors.

4. A core and kit will let you run a mix of up to 6 TIEs and 3 Interceptors in some mix. No, you won't be able to field six academies or 3 alphas.

5 hours ago, __underscore__ said:

From the second edition FAQ:

The number of ships supported (by maneuver dials included) in each Conversion Kit are:

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/x-wing-second-edition/

I don't think it's out of the question to assume that 'supported' means 'fully convert'.

There's nothing in that FAQ that states (or even implies) that a Rebel CK will allow you to "fully convert" 4 Z-95s though.

Is this the statement you refer to?

"The number of ships supported (by maneuver dials included) in each Conversion Kit are:"

If so, they specifically qualify what they mean by "supported" - it just means that's how many maneuver dials are included for those ships.

I think it's reasonable to also expect at least that number of pilot cards and cardboard bases for each maneuver dial, since you also need those elements to field each ship. Based on additional reveals, do we think that either of these things aren't happening?

Just now, elfholme said:

There's nothing in that FAQ that states (or even implies) that a Rebel CK will allow you to "fully convert" 4 Z-95s though.

Is this the statement you refer to?

"The number of ships supported (by maneuver dials included) in each Conversion Kit are:"

If so, they specifically qualify what they mean by "supported" - it just means that's how many maneuver dials are included for those ships.

I think it's reasonable to also expect at least that number of pilot cards and cardboard bases for each maneuver dial, since you also need those elements to field each ship. Based on additional reveals, do we think that either of these things aren't happening?

Yes, the bit I quoted was the bit I was referring to.

And no, I think it was reasonably clear what they meant but it wasn't explicitly clear, especially considering their past releases where a ship could be run as any option independently. So it makes sense to me for people to be disappointed.

17 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

Hey, since you’re in/from marketing, you should check out this good article from Harvard Business Review about using truth to deceive people by exploiting people’s preconceived notions to create a predictable and false conclusion. It’s called paltering.

If you don’t have time to read it, here’s the important part.

“Importantly, though, targets of paltering view paltering as far less ethical than palterers do, our research finds. In fact, whereas palterers are likely to focus on their use of truthful statements to justify the ethicality of their behavior, targets focus on being actively deceived and conclude that the use of paltering is unethical.”

”All this suggests that you should think twice before you succumb to the temptation to palter in work situations in which you feel tempted to hide information that may put you at a disadvantage. Though paltering may seem the most helpful strategy in such situations in the moment, don’t forget that if the people you’re interacting with discover that you deceived them, they are still going to feel that you misled them. And that could harm your relationship with them.”

In short, most people perceive strategically hiding the truth to be just as deceptive as lying. That why we also call it a lie by omission.

https://hbr.org/2016/10/theres-a-word-for-using-truthful-facts-to-deceive-paltering

That's not what is being done here though. What are they hiding? The info in the FAQ seems very straightforward. They have released unboxing videos to give us an idea of the contents. We're months away from street date, and we even have lists of contents already. How many people have actually bought Conversion Kits without getting what they expected inside?

Could they be even MORE transparent? Yeah, probably. They could have put the entire lists of contents in their FAQ. That's not a great move to generate buzz about a product, but it would be transparent. In any case, they don't appear to be trying to deceive anyone, IMO.

2 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

Yes, the bit I quoted was the bit I was referring to.

And no, I think it was reasonably clear what they meant but it wasn't explicitly clear, especially considering their past releases where a ship could be run as any option independently. So it makes sense to me for people to be disappointed.

Let's get one thing clear: I never said it didn't make sense to be disappointed. *I* am disappointed! I *don't* want to have to buy two Rebel CKs to run the A-Wing swarms I'm used to, or two Imperial kits for my tie swarm (of single PS ships).

I just don't think what they have done is "false advertising", misleading, or unethical.

Just now, elfholme said:

Let's get one thing clear: I never said it didn't make sense to be disappointed. *I* am disappointed! I *don't* want to have to buy two Rebel CKs to run the A-Wing swarms I'm used to, or two Imperial kits for my tie swarm (of single PS ships).

I just don't think what they have done is "false advertising", misleading, or unethical.

I mean, that's fine and all but a reasonable number of people were mislead based on the statement even if they're not angry about it. So it was actually misleading, even unintentionally.

21 hours ago, Tvboy said:

So now that we know which pilot cards are included and the total number of ship bases we're getting (excluding the wave 1 content packaged separately), let's try and guess what the actual bases are going to look like. * next to a ship means certain 2 pilot combinations will not be possible without a 2nd conversion kit.

4 - T-65: Biggs//Blue, Garven//Red, Wedge//Garven, Blue//Red

3 - Y-Wing: Dutch//Gold, Horton//Gray, Gold//Gray

3 - A-Wing: Arvel//Green, Jake//Phoenix, Green//Phoenix

3 - B-Wing: Braylen//Blue, Ten//Blade, Blue//Blade

3 - Z-95: Cracken//Bandit, Blount//Tala, Bandit//Tala

2 - Auzituck: Low//Defender, Wulff//Defender

2* - Attack Shuttle : Ezra//Zeb, Hera//Sabine

2* - Sheatipede: AP-5//Ezra, Fenn//Zeb

3 - HWK: Jan//Scout, Kyle//Roark, Roark//Scout

2* - TIE/ln: Rex//Zeb, Ezra//Sabine

3 - E-Wing: Corran//Knave, Gavin//Rogue, Knave//Rogue

2* - U-Wing: Cassian//Heff, Bodhi//Blue

2 - K-Wing: Miranda//Warden, Esege//Warden

2* - Arc-170: Norra//Ibtisam, Shara//Garven

3 - YT-1300: Han//ORS, Chewie//ORS, Lando//ORS

2* - VCX: Hera//Chopper, Kanan//Lothal

2 - YT-2400: Dash//Fringer, Leebo//Fringer

That's a total of 43 ship bases. So at least 6 ships will have some kind of impossible pilot combinations without multiple conversion kits depending on how they combine the pilots and bases.

Nice work here, but I think you are off with the Z-95 bases. We know that there are three pilot cards for each of Bandit and Tala so I doubt they would not have 3 bases for each of those. So I think we'll get:

4 - Z-95: Cracken//Bandit, Blount//Tala, Bandit//Tala, Bandit//Tala

That means we need to cut a base somewhere else. My guess would be the Falcon:

2* - YT-1300: Han//Chewie, Lando//ORS (or some other combo of U1//U2, U3//G1)

1 hour ago, elfholme said:

There's nothing in that FAQ that states (or even implies) that a Rebel CK will allow you to "fully convert" 4 Z-95s though.

Not from the FAQ, but from the articles:

Quote

Within this conversion kit, veteran players will find all of the components necessary to upgrade their existing Rebel ship collection from the first edition of X-Wing to the second edition.

That phrase, combined with a specific number of ships listed for conversion (four, in the case of Z-95s), easily and reasonably leads a consumer to the belief that if he can fly four Bandits in 1.0, the CK will allow him to fly four Bandits in 2.0. That phrase can quite reasonably lead a consumer to believe he can fully convert four Z-95s, even though it's not true. The product is actually named to lead to that belief.

It is misleading language. No, it's not a flat-out lie -- that would certainly be legally actionable -- but it is absolutely misleading. And it's disappointing (on a couple of levels).

29 minutes ago, JamesWG said:

Nice work here, but I think you are off with the Z-95 bases. We know that there are three pilot cards for each of Bandit and Tala so I doubt they would not have 3 bases for each of those. So I think we'll get:

4 - Z-95: Cracken//Bandit, Blount//Tala, Bandit//Tala, Bandit//Tala

While I think you might be correct with 4 Z-95 base tiles, they have not (and haven't heard otherwise for 2.0) ever put generic pilots back to back. Much more likely would be 2x each of Cracken//Bandit & Blount//Tala, similar to what they did in 1st ed.

Which would s*ck, as one of my favorite rebel builds is a Z swarm.

(edit) Then again, they do include 3 bandit & 3 tala pilot cards....

3 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Not from the FAQ, but from the articles:

You found the article error!

Seriously though, I agree. it's misleading. I assumed that if it said four z's I'd get the same stuff as if I bought four z's off the shelf with the exception of the unique pilots.

10 minutes ago, JohnBoo said:

While I think you might be correct with 4 Z-95 base tiles, they have not (and haven't heard otherwise for 2.0) ever put generic pilots back to back. Much more likely would be 2x each of Cracken//Bandit & Blount//Tala, similar to what they did in 1st ed.

Two issues. First your suggestion would still only result in 2 each of Tala and Bandit bases when we know we get 3 pilot cards for each. Second, it is factually incorrect to say that FFG has never put generics back to back. Took me less than a minute of looking at my scum bases to find a Black Sun Sol.//Binayre Pirate Z-95 ship base.

3 hours ago, Scum4Life said:

I've had an epiphany!

Rather than using the correct ships insert why not use a base size, faction and initiative matched insert, even if it does say the wrong name, who cares the model on the peg let's you know at it is really.

I plan on getting two scum kits, and one rebel. I think it'll only be rebel ships that give me a problem

So much this......all the complaints avoided in one single shot. If the base were generic for a ship, there wouldnt be any problem. I really dont see the use of having a tiny pilot name in there. Also , would it be a serious issue to use a base from another pilot & same ship in a tournament? really?

1 minute ago, JamesWG said:

Two issues. First your suggestion would still only result in 2 each of Tala and Bandit bases when we know we get 3 pilot cards for each. Second, it is factually incorrect to say that FFG has never put generics back to back. Took me less than a minute of looking at my scum bases to find a Black Sun Sol.//Binayre Pirate Z-95 ship base.

I did edit my post after I replied to you regarding the 3 pilot cards.

I never noticed the Black Sun Sol.//Binayre Pirate Z-95 ship base before - I stand corrected.

2 minutes ago, vtarin said:

Also , would it be a serious issue to use a base from another pilot & same ship in a tournament? really?

For me? Absolutely not a problem. For FFG? Prohibited.

4 minutes ago, JohnBoo said:

I did edit my post after I replied to you regarding the 3 pilot cards.

I never noticed the Black Sun Sol.//Binayre Pirate Z-95 ship base before - I stand corrected.

pretty sure there are hired gun/syndicate thug y-wings as well.

8 minutes ago, JohnBoo said:

I did edit my post after I replied to you regarding the 3 pilot cards.

I never noticed the Black Sun Sol.//Binayre Pirate Z-95 ship base before - I stand corrected.

Sorry, didn't see the edit. The scum Y-Wing also has a G1//G2 base. Maybe those are the only ones due to the special nature of the Most Wanted product. But the conversion kits are kinda like Most Wanted in that they both include cards and bases designed to "convert" ships. With Most Wanted it was converting from one faction to another. While now we are converting from one version to another.

Edit - PanchoX1 beat me to the Y-Wing point.

59 minutes ago, vtarin said:

So much this......all the complaints avoided in one single shot. If the base were generic for a ship, there wouldnt be any problem. I really dont see the use of having a tiny pilot name in there. Also , would it be a serious issue to use a base from another pilot & same ship in a tournament? really?

The problem would be different but would still exist.

it would be:

"YOU SAID I COULD CONVERT ALL MY SHIPS BUT I CANT BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE ENOUGH SHIP BASES TO FLY EVERY SINGLE ONE AT THE SAME TIME, EVIL LIARS"

I wonder if when they get around to the wave specific mini conversion packages, if more generics will be in those? In a year from now we may all be swimming in generics and extra dials.

1 hour ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Not from the FAQ, but from the articles:

That phrase, combined with a specific number of ships listed for conversion (four, in the case of Z-95s), easily and reasonably leads a consumer to the belief that if he can fly four Bandits in 1.0, the CK will allow him to fly four Bandits in 2.0. That phrase can quite reasonably lead a consumer to believe he can fully convert four Z-95s, even though it's not true. The product is actually named to lead to that belief.

It is misleading language. No, it's not a flat-out lie -- that would certainly be legally actionable -- but it is absolutely misleading. And it's disappointing (on a couple of levels).

Huh. I see where you are coming from. I just disagree. I think the statement is absolutely correct, as are the statements in the FAQ, and people are tying those statements together, adding in a whole heaping tablespoon of assumptions, and coming to the wrong conclusion.

It seems like many people read those statements and come to one conclusion, while many (like me) read them without assumptions and came to a different one. All it says to me is that I get at least one pilot card, one maneuver template, and one ship base for 4 Z-95s (and I would hope to get at least one version of each pilot released in 1e...at least the ones who are transitioning to 2e). I guess we'd have to figure out which conclusion is more likely to be what a "reasonable person" would reach. It seems like there are reasonable people on both sides.

It quite clearly and deliberately says in he FAQ:

Quote

The number of ships supported (by maneuver dials included) in each Conversion Kit are:

This is really the only time we are told how many ships are supported, and it doesn't say at all that these are fully converted.

The conversion pack itself doesn't say that you can fly 4 Z95's it just has a list of components that include 4 Z95 dials and 3 Tala pilots.

My point here is i think they were actually begin quite cautious about misleading people, the only place they ever give specific numbers of ships "supported" is in the FAQ where it very clearly says that it's calculated based on the number of dials. Saying to me that the conversion kit doesn't really try and convert 4 ships it's just got a load of stuff in it, but technically based on the number of dials you could fly 4 Z95's and that's all that FAQ was trying to answer. It's not part of an official product description or any of the marketing it's just hidden away in the FAQ with a big caveat saying this is based on dial numbers.