in the IIUP it says the packs hold 20 good shots, while the core books have it as 1 shot per pack

has anyone used this exception or have any opinions on it?

You can also note that a lictor does not work as the Infantrymans uplifting primer says it should either.

ThenDoctor said:

IIUP is Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer

and yeah but i sort out the propoganda and i dont think they would lie about the amount of shots something can get off because the Munitorum would be all over them, excusing of course the fact a lasgun cant go straight through an orks skull of course.

It also says the standard lasguns have a full-auto mode.
FFG took certain liberties with the fluff there, as did pretty much everyone else.

Before Dark Heresy there were two distinct types of Hotshot packs talked about. In the Primer and some other books, there were the "more powerful/fewer shots" types. In Abnett's books, they were instead "Much more powerful/one shot." So in the rulebook we have both, except the first type has been named an "overcharge" pack to differentiate the two.

Just put overcharge pack there and you get the same meaning. And yes, Lasguns aren't auto either. That would be useful.

numb3rc said:

Also, note, that the Overcharge Pack as published in the game is not listed under the ammunition section, but as a weapon upgrade. This is the case in both DH and RT. So... Is the overcharge pack actually supposed to be what was described as a charge selector in some of the background materials? Potentially, yes. It has been tossed around the forums back and forth a couple of times, with nothing definitive coming of it. Good discussions though.

And yes, sadly, the majority of the laspistols and lasguns do not have full-auto capability. There are a few exceptions in the IH. The D'Laku Hellgun, Minerva-Aegis Lascarbine and the Fury Laspistol being the non-heavies; with the Multi-laser being the "king" of the full-auto lasweapons.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Brother Praetus said:

Errata changed the overcharge pack to an alternate ammo type . However, they still apparently can be used in pistols or rifles.

numb3rc said:

Ah, yes... Look at that. Between the second part of the Mono Upgrade errata and the Manstopper Bullets errata. So small no wonder I overlooked that; a year ago I probably wouldn't have made the mistake. Nonetheless, it did not translate to RT. So, maybe another couple of posts in the "Wut chu wan?!?" RT Errata Forum for me.

-=Brother Praetus=-

As others have pointed out the two works were independent entities so it should be of no surprise that they diverge periodically.

I guess you could claim that the IIUP lasgun is a different "pattern" lasgun, but that's still quite a stretch.

I guess you could claim that the IIUP lasgun is a different "pattern" lasgun, but that's still quite a stretch.

Funnily enough, it very specifically isn't: The Inquisitor's Handbook described the Short Pattern Lasgun, which is exactly the one referred to in the Primer.

Yep. The fluff warrants both multiple power settings and full auto, yet they are nowhere to be found on the Lasgun featured in the core rulebook, despite the fact that this is the exact same weapon described in the IIUP, and the inclusion of these features would actually improve mechanical balance of the Lasgun vis a vis SP counterparts. While I can somewhat understand why the variable power setting feature of Lasguns was not implemented (presumably for the sake of simplicity though I firmly feel such a feature need not be complicated), I cannot for the life of me understand why they restricted the Lasgun to Semi-Auto only. Does this improve game balance, or have a mechanical justification? No, if anything the reverse is true. Does it add anything to the game? Certainly not. The Lasgun's RAW stats are basically senseless.

Does this improve game balance, or have a mechanical justification? No, if anything the reverse is true.

That depends on a single factor: whether ammunition supply is a factor in your game. If it is, having a lasgun (the batteries of which are rechargeable by sunlight, heat or any electrical outlet) is just priceless. I remember an Imperial Guard game where we could choose between an autogun with 3 magazines or a lasgun with 3 powercells. I chose the latter. While others calculated whether they could allow themselves a full auto burst which would probably be their last, I merrily shot a friendly semi-auto every round... for 20 rounds straight, without ever worrying about running out of ammo or even reloading, thankyouverymuch.

Thus, it makes quite a lot of sense for the IG to equip their troops with lasguns even if slugthrowers are more powerful - it's one less item on the supply chain and while a platoon can usually live quite well off the land if they have to, they probably won't be able to manufacture bullets in the field.

"That depends on a single factor: whether ammunition supply is a factor in your game. If it is, having a lasgun (the batteries of which are rechargeable by sunlight, heat or any electrical outlet) is just priceless. I remember an Imperial Guard game where we could choose between an autogun with 3 magazines or a lasgun with 3 powercells. I chose the latter. While others calculated whether they could allow themselves a full auto burst which would probably be their last, I merrily shot a friendly semi-auto every round... for 20 rounds straight, without ever worrying about running out of ammo or even reloading, thankyouverymuch."

Ammo is cheap, (typically) plentiful and light. In nearly every case it will be a non-factor. Furthermore, with things such as Fire Selectors (an asymetrical upgrade), and reliable, high powered Autoguns such as the Armaggedon or even an affordable quality upgrade, the inherent bonuses of the Lasgun completely evaporate, while those of the Autogun remain and are aggrandized by special munitions. If you want to orchestrate a set of circumstances where the Lasgun is superior (btw by RAW charge packs cannot recharge via sunlight, another inconsistency between it and the fluff) because you eliminate or choke access to the resupply of munitions, then the Lasgun will obviously be superior. While there's no doubt that there's a definite minority of situations where its versatile methods of ammo replenishment make it so, on average this is not a major issue and Autoguns as a result simply clean its clock. They are more customizable, they can be just as reliable, they can be more powerful per shot, and they have full-auto. Hands down, no contest, it's better in the vast majority of cases, thus I find the lack of Autofire and multiple power settings for the Lasgun, despite their fluff justification, definite missteps that detract from the balance between these two kinds of weapons.

"Thus, it makes quite a lot of sense for the IG to equip their troops with lasguns even if slugthrowers are more powerful - it's one less item on the supply chain and while a platoon can usually live quite well off the land if they have to, they probably won't be able to manufacture bullets in the field."

I really wish people would stop misconstruing my arguments and bringing this up. Listen, I am in no way making the case that the Autogun as an armament is superior to the Lasgun when it comes to equipping an army, nor am I dismissing or unaware of the logistical benefits the Lasgun's properties engender. The simple fact is that ammo scarcity is rarely enough of an issue in your average game/session of DH/RT to outweigh the huge, huge slew of advantages and benefits the Autogun enjoys over the Lasgun, Autofire being merely one.

You can't really compare average DH game with Imperial Guards. Its just not the same.

Acolytes, even if low in Inquisitorial organization, are still essentially rare, specialized force. Furthermore, many times Acolytes are not only allowed but required to procure and use their own equipment. Thus they can use whatever they **** well like. The problems resulting from this is their own problems to solve.

Imperial Guardsmen are maintained by Departmento Munitorium so they *must* think big. Like, for example. A regiment of 6000 men armed with autoguns could easily require something like 600 rounds per man per fighting day. 600 autogun rounds, when packed for safe interstellar transportation, can easily weight 50 pounds. So Departmento Munitorium would have to haul 300 000 pounds of extra material to the drop-zone *per day* and if the war-zone was ever cut off the lines by warpstorm or blockade the Impeiral Guardsmen would be ****** down there. When the other option is to give everyone a lasgun a a few fusion reactors and loading stations into the drop-zone you can hardly blame them.

Besides, there is another thing to consider: Lasguns fire laser beams which move light speed and are not affected by wind, gravitation or weather. Thus it is ten times faster and easier to teach someone to hit something with laser beam than it is to teach someone to hit something with autogun. Back when I was in army you could put a lasre designator into hands of someone who had *never* used one and he would hit a man sized target from 800 meters away on first try. Many people, when given a high-powered rifle, will never in their life hit a man sized target from 800 meters.

Too bad rules don't support this simple fact of reality.

Ammo is cheap, (typically) plentiful and light. In nearly every case it will be a non-factor. Furthermore, with things such as Fire Selectors (an asymetrical upgrade), and reliable, high powered Autoguns such as the Armaggedon or even an affordable quality upgrade, the inherent bonuses of the Lasgun completely evaporate, while those of the Autogun remain and are aggrandized by special munitions. If you want to orchestrate a set of circumstances where the Lasgun is superior (btw by RAW charge packs cannot recharge via sunlight, another inconsistency between it and the fluff) because you eliminate or choke access to the resupply of munitions, then the Lasgun will obviously be superior. While there's no doubt that there's a definite minority of situations where its versatile methods of ammo replenishment make it so, on average this is not a major issue and Autoguns as a result simply clean its clock. They are more customizable, they can be just as reliable, they can be more powerful per shot, and they have full-auto. Hands down, no contest, it's better in the vast majority of cases, thus I find the lack of Autofire and multiple power settings for the Lasgun, despite their fluff justification, definite missteps that detract from the balance between these two kinds of weapons.

Ok, I have to admit that I took a good look at Fire Selectors and then decided that they move into wall banger territory (this is not an upgrade to be tossed aside lightly - instead, it should be thrown with great force!), just like Pen6 firebombs. Completely eliminating the balancing factor from several weapons such as the Armageddon? What were they thinking? Instead, I have the Fire Selector partition the one clip within the weapon so it can load different kinds of ammo.
So yes, that's a houserule issue. Considering that fire selectors break the balance between many kinds of weapons (standard and Armageddon autogun, for one), I don't feel it's unique to the lasgun.

As for the "definite minority of situations"... yes, it's a minority. But think of a cell cut off from reinforcements. Think of a cell on a feudal/feral world where most fancier guns will become unwieldy clubs after a few rounds. Think of a cell that can't access their home base.

By the way, the different power settings can be done with the Overcharge Pack if you consider its use as optional.

I really wish people would stop misconstruing my arguments and bringing this up. Listen, I am in no way making the case that the Autogun as an armament is superior to the Lasgun when it comes to equipping an army, nor am I dismissing or unaware of the logistical benefits the Lasgun's properties engender. The simple fact is that ammo scarcity is rarely enough of an issue in your average game/session of DH/RT to outweigh the huge, huge slew of advantages and benefits the Autogun enjoys over the Lasgun, Autofire being merely one.

I wasn't "misconstruing" your argument, I was building an own.

"You can't really compare average DH game with Imperial Guards. Its just not the same.

Acolytes, even if low in Inquisitorial organization, are still essentially rare, specialized force. Furthermore, many times Acolytes are not only allowed but required to procure and use their own equipment. Thus they can use whatever they **** well like. The problems resulting from this is their own problems to solve.

Imperial Guardsmen are maintained by Departmento Munitorium so they *must* think big. Like, for example. A regiment of 6000 men armed with autoguns could easily require something like 600 rounds per man per fighting day. 600 autogun rounds, when packed for safe interstellar transportation, can easily weight 50 pounds. So Departmento Munitorium would have to haul 300 000 pounds of extra material to the drop-zone *per day* and if the war-zone was ever cut off the lines by warpstorm or blockade the Impeiral Guardsmen would be ****** down there. When the other option is to give everyone a lasgun a a few fusion reactors and loading stations into the drop-zone you can hardly blame them.

Besides, there is another thing to consider: Lasguns fire laser beams which move light speed and are not affected by wind, gravitation or weather. Thus it is ten times faster and easier to teach someone to hit something with laser beam than it is to teach someone to hit something with autogun. Back when I was in army you could put a lasre designator into hands of someone who had *never* used one and he would hit a man sized target from 800 meters away on first try. Many people, when given a high-powered rifle, will never in their life hit a man sized target from 800 meters.

Too bad rules don't support this simple fact of reality. "

Yes, you cannot compare the average DH game with the IG. The argument that the Lasgun, even in its unnecessarily weakened RAW form, is on footing with the Autogun because it serves as a superior armament on a large scale is completely irrelevant.

Also, I completely agree that Las weapons should receive some sort of accuracy bonus; this may not be supported by the fluff (Lasguns are described in the IIUP as having only 'average' accuracy, and I assume this is in comparison to non-Las weaponry), but it is most definitely supported by the science of Las weaponry, and mechanical balance considerations.

"Ok, I have to admit that I took a good look at Fire Selectors and then decided that they move into wall banger territory (this is not an upgrade to be tossed aside lightly - instead, it should be thrown with great force!), just like Pen6 firebombs. Completely eliminating the balancing factor from several weapons such as the Armageddon? What were they thinking? Instead, I have the Fire Selector partition the one clip within the weapon so it can load different kinds of ammo.
So yes, that's a houserule issue. Considering that fire selectors break the balance between many kinds of weapons (standard and Armageddon autogun, for one), I don't feel it's unique to the lasgun."

The Fire Selector definitely upsets weapon balance within the SP weapon type as well, but it most clearly increases the disparity between Las and SP weapons as types overall because it's one of several powerful, and asymmetrical upgrades exclusive to the latter.

"As for the "definite minority of situations"... yes, it's a minority. But think of a cell cut off from reinforcements. Think of a cell on a feudal/feral world where most fancier guns will become unwieldy clubs after a few rounds. Think of a cell that can't access their home base."

So purchase and carry a Lasgun as a backup for the occasional situations where it may prove superior to your pimped out Autogun; nothing stopping you. Again the fact that the Lasgun is mechanically superior in a small minority of situations does not make it on par with the Autogun, nor does it mechanically justify stripping the former of two important fluff supported properties.

"By the way, the different power settings can be done with the Overcharge Pack if you consider its use as optional."

Sadly you can't without violating the RAW, and if you're going to do that, you may as well give Lasguns their fluff properties. Even if you could, it still would only be one (high power) of two (high and low power) optional settings.

"I wasn't "misconstruing" your argument, I was building an own."

But the argument that the RAW Lasgun would be superior to an Autogun with respect to a large scale force (which it probably is) is irrelevant to this discussion, so I assumed it was in reaction to a perceived assertion on my part to the contrary. Again, the considerations of an acolyte in an average game of DH and that of the Imperial Guard are simply not comparable. Acolytes don't need to wrestle with logistics, nor the implications of cost discrepancies multiplied to a massive degree. Instead they are concerned almost entirely with performance, with a secondary consideration given to availability and expense (the lattermost will often be taken care of by the Big I).

The bottom line is that the benefits of the Lasgun, much more often than not (and you've admitted this), are simply not competitive relative to its cost as compared to other weaponry, and this lack of this competitiveness is aggrivated as additional funds are introduced for use in weapon upgrades and custom munitions, thus there is no design/mechanical basis for removing two of its important fluff justified properties; Autofire and variable power settings.

Lasers said:

What discussion? You seem to be discussing the relative strength of las weapons compared to SP weapons if used by Dark Heresy characters, but noone in this thread but you seems to be, or even seems to want to be part of this discussion. This is a discussion about the conflict between the lasgun as described in the IIUP and and the lasgun as described in the core rules of Dark Heresy. You are the only one who brought the difference between SP and Las if used by Acolytes into this thread.

You can't blame the others for discussing different things than you do, if you are the one who brought a discussion into the thread that is about a completly different topic than any other post in the thread.

"What discussion? You seem to be discussing the relative strength of las weapons compared to SP weapons if used by Dark Heresy characters, but noone in this thread but you seems to be, or even seems to want to be part of this discussion. This is a discussion about the conflict between the lasgun as described in the IIUP and and the lasgun as described in the core rules of Dark Heresy. You are the only one who brought the difference between SP and Las if used by Acolytes into this thread.

You can't blame the others for discussing different things than you do, if you are the one who brought a discussion into the thread that is about a completly different topic than any other post in the thread."

Cifer was replying to me, so clearly, he was involved in the sub-topic of the relative strength of the two weapon types.

Further, this sub-topic is completely relevant and directly pertinent to the overall discussion of IIUP inconsistency with the RAW, because it aims to determine whether or not there was a mechanical, balance related reason or justification for it (or alternatively a lackthereof).

although i do love the discussion that has sprung from my query i have decided on an answer, i found a link for this site somewhere but im not sure where. i think i found it on my own when discussing the "running an IG campaign" topic

http://www.darkreign40k.com/weapons-and-armour/competitive-las-weapons-2.html

if anyone can find Luddite's post on the matter i would be grateful for that too because i cant seem to find it

So purchase and carry a Lasgun as a backup for the occasional situations where it may prove superior to your pimped out Autogun; nothing stopping you. Again the fact that the Lasgun is mechanically superior in a small minority of situations does not make it on par with the Autogun, nor does it mechanically justify stripping the former of two important fluff supported properties.

The point where a player starts hefting a second basic weapon around is pretty much exactly the one where I'd ask him to keep his Carrying capacity in mind, as that's usually around where characters with only medium S and T start having problems when they carry some armour and non-combat related gear around as well.

But the argument that the RAW Lasgun would be superior to an Autogun with respect to a large scale force (which it probably is) is irrelevant to this discussion, so I assumed it was in reaction to a perceived assertion on my part to the contrary. Again, the considerations of an acolyte in an average game of DH and that of the Imperial Guard are simply not comparable. Acolytes don't need to wrestle with logistics, nor the implications of cost discrepancies multiplied to a massive degree. Instead they are concerned almost entirely with performance, with a secondary consideration given to availability and expense (the lattermost will often be taken care of by the Big I).

So? The lasgun doesn't have to be balanced for Acolytes. Would you say an autogun is balanced compared to a boltgun when disregarding logistics and cost? Is a club as good as a powersword? What's important to me is that the lasgun has the properties that make it fit into the universe, which would be extreme ease of logistics for the Munitorum. Does it have these properties? I think it does. Whether it's good for acolytes is only important if it was mainly built for acolyte cells - which it isn't.
Also, whether or not the Big I foots any part of the bill for the characters depends entirely on the GM. When I look at the salaries of, for example, the Scum or the Guardsman, I don't see too many Manstopper rounds coming out of their budget - at which point the reusable power packs become an advantage again.

Cifer was replying to me, so clearly, he was involved in the sub-topic of the relative strength of the two weapon types.

Um... no. As you already noticed, I preferred to stay on the topic of the in-game logic of the lasgun's existence in the IG.

"The point where a player starts hefting a second basic weapon around is pretty much exactly the one where I'd ask him to keep his Carrying capacity in mind, as that's usually around where characters with only medium S and T start having problems when they carry some armour and non-combat related gear around as well."

Lasguns aren't particularly heavy or prohibitive as secondary gear at 4 kg (I believe there are lighter patterns besides), and Laspistols less so.

"So? The lasgun doesn't have to be balanced for Acolytes. Would you say an autogun is balanced compared to a boltgun when disregarding logistics and cost? Is a club as good as a powersword? What's important to me is that the lasgun has the properties that make it fit into the universe, which would be extreme ease of logistics for the Munitorum. Does it have these properties? I think it does. Whether it's good for acolytes is only important if it was mainly built for acolyte cells - which it isn't."

You are missing the point. The weapon lacks properties it should have for no good reason. There is no mechanical reason to withhold properties that the Lasgun should have according to the IIUP, namely Full-Auto capabilities and adjustable power settings. None. If there was, maybe the deviation between the RAW and the IIUP would be warranted, but there isn't. That's the point I'm trying to make and construe; the Lasgun is so completely inferior according to the RAW, that retaining these IIUP granted properties would not upset the balance, thus their removal is without justification.

"Also, whether or not the Big I foots any part of the bill for the characters depends entirely on the GM. When I look at the salaries of, for example, the Scum or the Guardsman, I don't see too many Manstopper rounds coming out of their budget - at which point the reusable power packs become an advantage again."

I'd say most sensible GMs would probably rule that basic essentials such as munitions, at bear minimum, most certainly do not come out of the pocket of Inquisitorial acolytes.

"Um... no. As you already noticed, I preferred to stay on the topic of the in-game logic of the lasgun's existence in the IG."

Again, the sub-topic as repeatedly stated is completely relevant because it seeks to determine whether or not there is any mechanical reason for the Lasgun's existing RAW implementation and deviance from the IIUP. I do not see why this is apparently so difficult to understand.

Technically you are applying an IIUP from a sector of space on the other side of the galaxy to the Calixis Sector.

Equipment patterns vary form sector to sector.

Conflict solved.

That's a handwaving explanation but not a justification.

In all reality it's both. 40K is glorious that way.