So, the Core Books (the language is identical in all three) state that:

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VICIOUS (PASSIVE)
When this weapon scores a critical injury or hit, the character adds ten times the Vicious rating to the critical roll. With Vicious 3, for example, the victim adds +30 to his critical hit result.

But also:

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Note, that talents and qualities that specifically affect Critical Injuries do not effect Critical Hits (so the Vicious quality, for example, would have no effect on a ship or vehicle).

My knee-jerk reaction is that these contradictions are just due to a bad example, as Vicious specifically affects both Critical Injuries and Hits, and a better example would have been Lethal Blows (which specifically only affects Critical Injuries), but has there been any official clarification on this? I haven't found anything in the Erratas, FAQ or Dev answer thread, so I'm curious how you guys would rule it before bothering the devs with it.

To further complicate things, there aren't any vehicle weapons in the Core Books with Vicious, but off the top of my head I can think of at least two from later books (the flak cannons from LBE, and the Plasma Drill from FO).

It kind of makes sense that a serrated blade wouldn't do more damage to a speeder bike, but then again, why would a plasma drill only do worse crits against people if vehicle weapons by default already get +50 to Critical Injuries?

In RPGs, specific trumps general. And the second quote specifically calls out vicious. So you already have your answer. Anything after that is house rules and is strictly up to what works best for you and your table.

4 minutes ago, kaosoe said:

In RPGs, specific trumps general. And the second quote specifically calls out vicious. So you already have your answer. Anything after that is house rules and is strictly up to what works best for you and your table.

To be honest, both quotes are quite specific. The second one, however is first specific that things that affect Critical Injuries do not affect Critical Hits. Fine, crystal clear. It then goes on to cite Vicious as an example of this, despite it's clearly stated earlier that it does, in fact, affect Critical Hits.

Does an example trump rules crunch?

1 hour ago, penpenpen said:

Does an example trump rules crunch?

I would think so, especially since that the example specifically talks about Vicious. And that's what I was referring to when I say specific trumps general (keep in mind that I am using "general" as a relative term).

2 hours ago, penpenpen said:

why   would a plasma drill only do worse crits against people if vehicle weapons by default already get  +50 to Critical Injuries? 

The +50 crit vs people is a gm discretionary option, not a hard always active rule.

Since the first quote specifically calls out critical hits as something Vicious can effect, but the second quote specifically says Vicious can’t effect critical hits, I’d say forget the examples and go with the actual rules text. After all, the rules text is what the rules are; examples just aid in interpreting and understanding the rules. In this case, the rules text is not contradictory at all: Vicious applies to critical hits and is not something which only applies to critical injuries.

FWIW, I have never batted an eye at using Vicious on vehicles. Also, as ghost noted, the +50 is not obligatory but if you do exercise it then getting hit by those weapons will carry a great risk of death.

More so in these rules than in any other TTRPG I have played do you get these problems. I think that by separating the same rules in several ways it promotes confusion amongst some people. I heard of somebody feeling that the rules justified throwing a grenade into orbit from the surface of a planet because of how they read the range rules.

2 hours ago, penpenpen said:

2 hours ago, penpenpen said:

But also   :

Quote

Note, that talents and qualities that specifically affect Critical Injuries do not effect Critical Hits (so the Vicious quality, for example, would have no effect on a ship or vehicle).    

Where exactly does it say this?

I am pretty sure that Vicious affects critical hits as well. After all, both Stay on Target and Lead by Example introduce flak cannons as vehicle weapons, which have the Vicious quality. These are clearly intended as anti-vehicle weapons (the entire weapon profile uses planetary scale and the flavor text calls them out as anti-fighter weapons). Therefore, it would seem save to assume that the weapon quality Vicious affects vehicles as well.

Of course, this could be special case, similar to the Advanced Targeting Array's inbuilt Sniper Shot talent. Sniper Shot usually only works on personal weapons, but in this case it doesn't.

4 hours ago, Ghostofman said:

Where exactly does it say this?

Edge of the Empire Core Rules, p.238, just above the "Vehicles and Minions" box.

It's in Age of Rebellion and Force and Destiny as well, but I hope you will forgive me for not digging out the page numbers just now.

Thanks. And indeed it is across all three.

I say submit a query to the devs. My guess is vicious does apply to vehicles per the quality description, and the example is bad intended to be lethal blows.

4 hours ago, penpenpen said:

Edge of the Empire Core Rules, p.238, just above the "Vehicles and Minions" box.

It's in Age of Rebellion and Force and Destiny as well, but I hope you will forgive me for not digging out the page numbers just now.

I get it. If you're using a weapon that does Critical Injuries (character scale damage), then it (Vicious) doesn't apply when hitting vehicles. Meaning you can't apply vicious from, say, a Vibro-ax, when hitting a speeder or starfighter. So, the description of the Quality is generic, then look at the specific weapon for what kind of damage it does (hits or injuries). Why do this, because the Quality could be used by either kinds of weapons.

9 hours ago, FeBommel said:

Of course, this could be special case, similar to the Advanced Targeting Array's inbuilt Sniper Shot talent. Sniper Shot usually only works on personal weapons, but in this case it doesn't.

Sniper Shot works with a “non-thrown ranged attack.” I’m not seeing anything in the talent description that prohibits its use with vehicle weapons. Am I missing something?

Nope, it works with vehicle weapons. Check out the advanced targeting array vehicle mod, it gives sniper shot.

18 minutes ago, Ahrimon said:

Nope, it works with vehicle weapons. Check out the advanced targeting array vehicle mod, it gives sniper shot.

Isn't Sniper Shot only applicable to vehicle weapons via the Adv Targeting Array?

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Personal-Scale Talents and Startship Combat

Question asked by Lupex :

You said the sniper shot talent doesn't work in starship/vehicle combat, however the Advanced Targeting Array attachment has Innate Talent (Sniper Shot) as a Modification Option, is this correct?

Answered by Sam Stewart:

To answer your other questions; generally the Sniper Shot Talent shouldn't be used in Starship combat, but in that particular instance, it can be. I apologize that it's not called out, though, I can certainly see the confusion. However, yes, the idea is that in general, the Sniper Shot Talent shouldn't be used with starship scale weapons (because the ranges are that much bigger) but that mod should let you if you get it. I should add, if you'd like your players to use Sniper Shot in Starship Combat, it shouldn't break the game to let them do so. It does decrease the viability of starfighter dogfights, however (when the PC can shoot their opponents before they get in range, it may take some of the challenge out of dogfighting), so just be aware.

Here's a Dev answer concerning Sniper Shot.

I've taken a second look and there are several vehicle-scale anti-vehicle weapons with Vicious (flak cannons, a mine,...). So it seems save to assume that Vicious on vehicle-scale weapons does affect vehicles and starships.

Furthermore, Dangerous Covenants introduces the Golan Arms FC1 Anti-vehicle Flechette Launcher, which is a personal scale weapon designed to be used against vehicles. It has the Vicious quality as well but that leaves us with the question whether the weapon's Vicious quality is meant to be used against vehicles or only when the weapon is used against personal targets.

The scale of the weapon has nothing to do with Vicious because the quality says it applies to both injuries and hits. It's not like personal scale weapons only inflict injuries and vehicle scale only inflict hits; the victim determines whether a critical is an injury or a hit. Crit a person and it's an injury; crit a vehicle and it's a hit. In Vicious' case it adds to both; in Lethal Blows' case it only adds to injuries (can't remember if there's any other crit effects, but I'm sure they specify).