Lets hypothetically assume that you play with a steady group and that the group find the current game quite a bit tilted in power between some of the factions. Some units seem to dominate and some just don't seem that great, and you want to play with them all. So you decide to house-rule to increase the enjoyment of the game (which is yours to do what you want with!) as percieved balance is important for that. You don't want to change too much and not invent any new concepts, just nudge some things up and some things down, and you still want to be able to use TabletopAdmiral when creating lists without any considerations.

Looking at this year's 2 largest tournaments so far (us nationals and gencon) there was a total of 23 participants where only 1 played Waiqar. So there are presumably issues with Waiqar.

Also, in the biggest tournament (gencon with 16 participants) BOTH the gold and silver went to Uthuk. In one regional, a Uthuk player won by just playing Spined Threshers with Scuttling horror at 186p (i.e. 14p left empty!). So there are presumably issues with Uthuk.

Big thanks to you guys/gals who give feedback and ideas!

CRITICAL

Uthuk

• Ravos' unique upgrade Insatiable Hunger's trigger is now AFTER he "eats". So at least he can't run over the WHOLE table turn 1 and then eat.

• Fear incarnate has a pretty good potential to deal humungus amounits of damage. Just having the very much achievable 2 panic tests per round for 6 out of 8 rounds with a strength average of 2 amounts to 24 damage! With a focused build that number can get quite a bit higher. By reducing the range from 1-5 to 1-3 (which is what Ardus has) it will be a bit more unwieldy and counterable.

• The Scuttling horror for only 3p gives free outside-activation sideways shift (which, as @Budgernaut pointed out, actually means that it is at 3 places at once during the Command phase) and delivers stun tokens, for the most powerful unit in the game. WHAAAT!? This version phases the shift to Before instead of After the Command Phase, and it removes the stun ability. 3 points for a free shift every turn still seems more than fair in my book.

• The Devouring Maws for only 3p gives healing every attack without any caveats, for the most powerful unit in the game. WHAAAT!? This version puts in the caveat that it can't use its hit+panic modifier while doing it.

Waiqar

• I believe getting rid of the Carrion Lancer's "can't blight engaged units" is the clearest "fix-all" for Waiqar. It makes the Lancers a reliable support unit that helps "defend" engaged allies and it increases the potential for other Lancers to activate their Mortal strike ability. They are ok now, but they need to rival Threshers and Scions. The Heavy upgrade makes Reanimates into the tar-pit they are meant to be. It makes Ardus better since he can put the now-powerful Heavy lancer in the Reanimate 6-tray, as mentioned he is more easily defended through blight and he has more opportunities to borrow the Mortal strike ability. Ankaur also becomes more viable due to easier defence via blight, and that Reanimates becomes more valuable to necro when having the heavy Lancer. Also, when blighting, it happens after the enemies attacks and the Lancers can't do anything else. Waiqar needs to be good at SOMETHING. But this fix also has a limitation, it can only blight if the target does not already contain any blight. This is necessary as otherwise a 13 solo Lancer army just breaks the game by blighting. This fix, with the limitation, has still been more powerful than the "can't blight engaged units" original.

• Ankaur has been voted the worst hero in the game by the Initiative One podcast, and his necromancy is not cost effective without heavy infantry. By just removing the worst of his self-destruction, he could get ahead with the necromancy and MIGHT survive a shot from an enemy when he tries to heal from them with his initiative 6 ranged attack. I will remove this if an elite infantry is released. Will probably keep that he can necro the unit he is in though. I also added melee for this ability, as healing with that single melee attack die won't break him by far.

• I have not managed to figure out any overpowered combo that lead to his infantry upgrade being unable to add trays to his own unit. It is better if he could since you don't need to run 2 infantry units, but overpowered? So now it does. I also added the lesser self destruction as Ankaur above. This won't really affect when he is in the Reanimate unit, but it makes his cavalry upgrade possible. Since you can only put him in Death Knights, you had to sacrifice one Death Knight (the most expensive cavalry in the game!) for each tray of infantry. Who has ever done that thinking it was a good idea?

OPTIONAL

These are in addition to the "Critical ones" if you want to have some wider and more detailed balancing.

Uthuk

• Spined Threshers. Firstly I believe the design process looked like this: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/280411-what-makes-the-uthuk-yllan-strong/?do=findComment&comment=3442484 In this verision it looses their reroll engine. One unit does not need Brutal + dial in hit + auto Bane generation + lowest melee initiative for siege units AND a Reroll ability (and free shift or healing upgrades at 3p). This makes running 2x2 meaningful for the rank-reroll.

Daqan

• The Dawnblade (treat surges as hits on ONE engaged enemey, for 10p!) is just impossible to use due to the outrageus cost in relation to what it produces. This fix gives it a splash effect (i.e. potentially multiplied effect) which can combo with the also never seen Sweeping strikes (Hawthorne only, contact range is 1).

• Champion Hawthorne's 22 points for a white die is very expensive comparing to Aliana's cavalry upgrade (12p) or the Citadel Weapons master's red (8p). The premium of 10p is for his ability, which situationally could be very strong, but it seems in practice to work more like a deterrent than an ability that actually gets triggered. It also seems to bother others than me (mentioned in the Runecaster podcast I believe) that neither the Spearmen's or Oathsworn's ability to get inspiration tokens ever gets triggered (you want to reroll double surge to get a hit instead). So with the unique surge 1 that gives inspiration token, both these mentioned issues of non-triggering abilities gets smoothed out a little bit by at least getting something.

Waiqar

• Like the Dawnblade, the Duskblade is totally overcosted and therefore never seen in tournaments. By reducing the surge cost of the initial defense reduction from 2 to 1 and the second from 4 to 3, the heroes (yes, Lord Werebat has been considered) can hope to both trigger it's effect and deal damage in the same attack.

• The fact that Ravos get's to give the Death Knights, the most expensive cavalry in the game, 2 practically free wounds, even though they have a defensive ability against mortal strikes, drives me nuts. The ability is reworded so that it covers the wound from Ravos' surge ability (but still not his eating ability as there is no "defender").

• Ardus is just too stale and predictable, thus easily countered, for an expensive hero without ranged attack. He needs a speed 1 move and a second attack option to have at least a bit of versatility. And since probably all Waiqar players have a spare Ardus dial, it can easily be modified (just print and glue).

• Since the Reanimates in melee infantry form seems biologically/magically similar (or the same) to their ranged kind, leving the Regenerate ability out must be a designed nerf. And those thematically paradoxal nerfs are what I'm targeting for the bump-ups. I can't see this breaking them, as their trays seem to be either full or dead. Also, Regenerate on Reanimates have not done as much work for me as I'd hoped either so this ought to be minor.

I like these a lot, although Ravos only needs a nerf of triggering insatiable hunger after he does his free wound. As well as his unique surge was changed to surge+ =1 damage to each unit at range 1 for each surge spent.

I’m with Jukey on Insatiable Hunger. We have tried tracking the difference in our Uthuk games. Basically, “Ravos would be at X wounds with nerf vs Ravos as is.” It would have added 1 wound in the last two games by could easily add 2-3 in others. That might be enough to make the difference.

I don’t know why you would ban Fear Incarnate. I’ve not heard anyone complain at length about it breaking Ravos.

I disagree on the surge nerf just because I don’t see it as anywhere near the most potent hero surge ability. I’ve persnally seen Maegan, Kari, and Ardus all do more bonus damage through their surges than I’ve ever seen Ravos do. He usually only gets one, sometimes two, and every cold day in **** gets three wounds with it. Which is even less than it sounds if he is facing infantry.

Though your edited cards look fantastic. They look official

Ravos: Fear Incarnate is part of a cool theme that doesn't seem to be tearing up the meta, so I'd prefer to keep it available.

Threshers: Feels pretty good, nice and simple.

Rune Golems: Feels too much like recycled mechanics to me. Makes solo Golems really strong, but doesn't scale very well - what change would make 2x2 or 3x2 more appealing? Another wound, protected(1, 2, stable?), impact (number of trays in unit)?

Ardus: For starters, to be consistent with the proposed infantry upgrade, may as well give him a free surge instead of Precise. I'd also like to see him at Defense 4: his dial is a big part of his issue, so without an intensive overhaul there, making him significantly more durable should improve his battlefield performance.

Ankaur: Seems reasonable.

Carrion Lancers: I'm hesitant. They are already extremely flexible, and adding blight in combat is currently the role of Archers. I am against this change.

I like these ideas!

For Maro--I'd honestly love him at 40-42 if he had Violent Forces and Precise 1 built in. It seems like a lot to ask until you look at Kethra by comparison

Great feedback, thank you!

Before I start to make changes, I would like to put in a round of clarifications to see if that changes your opinions:

----

13 hours ago, Jukey said:

I like these a lot, although Ravos only needs a nerf of triggering insatiable hunger  after he does his free wound.

13 hours ago, Church14 said:

I’m with Jukey on Insatiable Hunger. 

I basically like this, easy and smooth with minimum rules impact. But man, in our group, Uthuk is tabling the other factions at turn 4-5. I'm not confident 1-2 extra wounds on him will change that. So by banning this upgrade, the effect you get with your suggestion is "doubled" or something like that. Thematically it's also hard to see that big guy run across the table in turn 1, faster than cav. With that said, I'm certain my Friendly Local Uthuk Player (FLUP) wants to test your suggestion first

----

13 hours ago, Jukey said:

his unique surge was changed to surge+ =1 damage to each unit at range 1 for each surge spent. 

13 hours ago, Church14 said:

I disagree on the surge nerf just because I don’t see it as anywhere near the most potent hero surge ability.

My FLUP disagreed with the nerfing of this due to the fact that Ravos is originally super effective vs heavy units, but he is struggling against infantry, and changing the surge to Z+ damage might even improve him against infantry, thus making him even more of a kill-all. We talked about Z+ = leathal, but he was not psyked on that either.

----

13 hours ago, Church14 said:

I don’t know why you would ban Fear Incarnate. I’ve not heard anyone complain at length about it breaking Ravos.

10 hours ago, Bhelliom said:

Fear Incarnate is part of a cool theme that doesn't seem to be tearing up the meta, so I'd prefer to keep it available.

It seems that its not talked about because everyone is just raving about Insatiable hunger. If you have'nt seen this one in action, it is a sight. Ask your FLUP (I guess you Church14 are yours) to make a build around it, i.e. putting in extra Spined Thresher units, Blood Diviner, Terrifying Heraldry/Rage Spine/Bull pennon etc. If you get 2 panic tests per round with an average of 2 morale symbols, which is certainly not unreasonable with this build, you are looking at 32 damage during a game (2x2x8). If you only succeed in 6 rounds, you still have 24 damage. Is that fairly priced at 5? NO!

----

10 hours ago, Bhelliom said:

Rune Golems: Feels too much like recycled mechanics to me. Makes solo Golems really strong, but doesn't scale very well 

Yeah, I know. I am aware of your list of potential upgrades for the Rune Golem, and I really liked it and would be very happy to see ANY of them released! But I was looking for something a bit toned down for the unit card (although I probably failed with my suggestion So with a second look at your ideas ( https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/275144-happy-friday-what-card-would-you-design/?do=findComment&comment=3315076 )

I'm thinking that: Increasing their base defence above 4 or adding Protected puts them totally out of range for many units (2-threat) and obsoletes their RED initiative 3 + RED defence modifier. It's not fun to play if you can't even scratch a unit, and/or if a unit has too few options. Maybe your "Aftershock"(their special ability chains to another enemy, or is an 1-3 area effect from the Golem?) or "Stone Bulwark" (cancels charges against it and gives 1 stun), or just the extra wound you mentioned would fit the unit card?

----

10 hours ago, Bhelliom said:

Ardus: For starters, to be consistent with the proposed infantry upgrade, may as well give him a free surge instead of Precise. I'd also like to see him at Defense 4: his dial is a big part of his issue, so without an intensive overhaul there, making him significantly more durable should improve his battlefield performance.

About his dial: I agree with you. I would really like a init 3 speed 1 move, a white reform and a second but later attack at initiative 6-7 like Ravos. But that is far out of scope for the "small nudges" I'm aiming at in this thread.

A free extra surge was actually the "original" idea for the reason you state But with his ability to dial it in together with Ardus' fury we are looking at 3 free surges. Now, doing the math on comparing that to the Precise probably does not show any difference, but 3 surge without dice rolls just feels a bit off in this game to me. BUT more importantly, I noticed that when your supporting Reanimate archers gets one-shotted by Heavy Crossbowmen, surges does nothing! I.e. Precise is preferable. Though admittedly that surge might be the one thing that would make The Duskblade usable.

For the upgrade thread I toyed with an armour artifact that would give him Cover or Protected. I'm still liking it, but I also appreciate that unit both have strengths and weaknesses (he certainly has more weaknesses that that though). Giving him to much defence makes him feel like Hawthorne? I'm very happy to discuss this more as Ardus is close to my heart.

----

10 hours ago, Bhelliom said:

Carrion Lancers: I'm hesitant. They are already extremely flexible, and adding blight in combat is currently the role of Archers. I am against this change.

Pretty flexible yes, but in my experience they are not pulling their weight in the current landscape with Latari and Uthuk. How much blight are they expected to deal with their current blighting limitation? 0 against Uthuk? 1 against the others? They are hard pressed to actually get to used their surge ability. Others than me, the Initiative One podcast among them, just don't see Waiqar as competetive at the moment. So we need some power here, and comparing this to Spined Threshers and Scions, this one is not over the top. Note that both of those can add banes and attack at the same time, which this adjustment still would not allow.

----

9 hours ago, JGrand said:

For Maro--I'd honestly love him at 40-42 if he had Violent Forces and Precise 1 built in. It seems like a lot to ask until you look at Kethra by comparison

I agree but that change would interfere with tabletop admiral too much unfortunately.

5 hours ago, Maktorius said:

My FLUP disagreed    with the nerfing of this due to the fact that Ravos is originally super effective vs heavy units, but he is struggling against infantry, and changing the surge to Z+ damage might even improve him against infantry, thus making him eve  n more of a kill-all. We talked about Z+ = leathal, but he was not psyked on that either.  

I want to keep Ravos’ unique surge because it is nearly worthless against infantry and provides a hero/armor buster. I want this because he is the only thing in the Uthuk army that can go after armor effectively. Kethra can kind of sort of take on armor with her skill, but it isn’t reliable. The rest of the army suffers against armor. Ravos’ unique surge is the ONLY mechanic Uthuk have to reliably generate mortal strikes.

5 hours ago, Maktorius said:

It seems  that its not talked about because everyone   is just raving about Insatiable hunger. If you have'nt seen this one in action, it is a sight. As  k your FLUP (I guess you Church14 are yours) to make a build around it, i.e. putting in extra Spined Thresher units, Blood Diviner, Terrifying Heraldry/Rage Spine/Bull pennon etc. If you get 2 panic tests per rou  nd with an average of 2 morale symbols, which is certainly not unreasonable with this build, you are looking at 32 damage during a game (2x2x8).  If you only succeed in 6 rounds, you still hav  e 24 damage. Is that fairly priced at 5? NO!      

It has a lot of potential, sure. I just haven’t seen it do a whole lot in practice. Though admittedly, my ability to test it has been limited by a lack of figures. With the expansions arriving soon, I’ll be trying out fear/morale based Uthuk armies more.

EDIT: I forgot one thing. I think the Uthuk tabling armies so early (turns 4-5) is partly because combat is starting 1-2 rounds earlier. In my games, I have been triggering melee attacks with Ravos in turn 2. Usually, heroes seem to be charging on turn 3, much less melee attacks starting round 4. I tend to use Agressive Shrieker and Warsprinter in Berserkers, so I’m charging turn 2, sometimes 1, instead of say Waiqar, where I’m charging/charged turn 3 or later. My Flesh Rippers in in combat on turn 2 at the latest. The only exceptions beingnif they went for objectives.

This is isnt to defend them consistently tabling opponents. Just pointing out that at a regular army’s speed, these tablings would be turns 6-7, not 4-5.

2 hours ago, Church14 said:

I want to keep Ravos’ unique surge because it is nearly worthless against infantry and provides a hero/armor buster. I want this because he is the only thing in the Uthuk army that can go after armor effectively. Kethra can kind of sort of take on armor with her skill, but it isn’t reliable. The rest of the army suffers against armor. Ravos’ unique surge is the ONLY mechanic Uthuk have to reliably generate mortal strikes.

I do like that the counter to Ravos' appears to be infantry... But I don't think he needs the surge ability to cut down heroes. Typically he is already going to get a free armor busting wound against them with his passive, and if he is swinging with brutal, precise, and three dice, he is still probably doing 1-2 wounds. The surge is what makes him one-shot other heroes and it can be hard to deal with, especially when you are trying to flank him with something else with high armor and it takes a full wound as well. I have definitely experienced a single surge doing damage to two 3 armor units (Ardus and a Carrion Lancer) along with rolling 3 hits, killing Ardus in 1 turn and softening up the carrion lancer (who took a wound at the end of the next round). Without the surge, he finishes off Ardus at the end of the round and then has to deal with a full health carrion lancer the next round (which he probably one shots if it doesn't armor up).

As for Kethra, she is an armor busting machine, and not just because of her ability. With bonecaster she shoots at init 3 with mortal on the dial and rolls two whites with brutal and precise. With both mortal and double hit on those dice, I've had her one shot a carrion lancer more than once.

8 hours ago, Maktorius said:

I'm thinking that: Increasing their base defence above 4 or adding Protected puts them totally out of range for many units (2-threat) and obsoletes their RED initiative 3 + RED defence modifier. It's not fun to play if you can't even scratch a unit, and/or if a unit has too few options. Maybe your "Aftershock"(their special ability chains to another enemy, or is an 1-3 area effect from the Golem?) or "Stone Bulwark" (cancels charges against it and gives 1 stun), or just the extra wound you mentioned would fit the unit card?

----

About his dial: I agree with you. I would really like a init 3 speed 1 move, a white reform and a second but later attack at initiative 6-7 like Ravos. But that is far out of scope for the "small nudges" I'm aiming at in this thread.

A free extra surge was actually the "original" idea for the reason you state But with his ability to dial it in together with Ardus' fury we are looking at 3 free surges. Now, doing the math on comparing that to the Precise probably does not show any difference, but 3 surge without dice rolls just feels a bit off in this game to me. BUT more importantly, I noticed that when your supporting Reanimate archers gets one-shotted by Heavy Crossbowmen, surges does nothing! I.e. Precise is preferable. Though admittedly that surge might be the one thing that would make The Duskblade usable.

For the upgrade thread I toyed with an armour artifact that would give him Cover or Protected. I'm still liking it, but I also appreciate that unit both have strengths and weaknesses (he certainly has more weaknesses that that though). Giving him to much defence makes him feel like Hawthorne? I'm very happy to discuss this more as Ardus is close to my heart.

----

Pretty flexible yes, but in my experience they are not pulling their weight in the current landscape with Latari and Uthuk. How much blight are they expected to deal with their current blighting limitation? 0 against Uthuk? 1 against the others? They are hard pressed to actually get to used their surge ability. Others than me, the Initiative One podcast among them, just don't see Waiqar as competetive at the moment. So we need some power here, and comparing this to Spined Threshers and Scions, this one is not over the top. Note that both of those can add banes and attack at the same time, which this adjustment still would not allow.

Golems: To me, their high Defense (4-6) and low wound paint them as truly difficult to kill with normal attacks, so I'd like to reinforce that theme. Giving them Protected, even just one, makes that much more a reality, but Berserkers have a hit on the dial and can sacrifice for Lethal, Darnati have a hit on the dial and surges for Lethal, Reanimates can rely on morale and are cheap enough that they should probably be threat 3 anyway, and Spearmen have the hit on the dial on their late attack. Cav roll 3 dice, so it's not as much a concern. But most importantly, attacks where a Golem takes no wounds are exactly the point of this buff - suits their fiction perfectly, and might give them the staying power to actually make some attacks. As for their Stun and +Defense, it still has a role against harder hitting enemies.

Those dial changes to Ardus sound very similar to what my playgroup has come up with. Frankly, I think it's silly that ANY hero wouldn't have a white reform! When I suggested a free surge, I meant by integrating Ardus' Fury into the base unit, so you wouldn't be able to take it twice. Effectively let him have both his Uniques, because yeah, gotta have that Precise. As for Defense, feeling like Hawthorne is kinda the idea - they have similar "battlefield commander" themes, and Host of Crows and Lessons of Seragert both change army building pretty considerably. Hawthorne hands out Inspiration, is mobile, and can be a tanky pest, while Ardus has stronger melee attacks and surge synergy. Giving him 4 Defense baseline both makes him better able to stand on the frontlines and gives him a Shield of Margath build. His dial already forces him to be defensive, why not double down?

Ultimately the blight costing their action is pretty limiting, so it's hard to object too much to the Lancer change.

I would like to see some tweaks to a few lesser used upgrades as well:

Fertile Soil: Before each End Phase, if {natural energy} is 1 or more, you may remove 1 wound. If {natural energy} is 3, you may remove 2 wounds.

-This makes the upgrade much more reliable, and feasible for 5 points. Keep in mind that while regenerating back to full health may seem strong, it can only happen if there are 3 greens, meaning there is also only 1 blue. These are the rounds that Scions get one shot pretty easily, especially if not defending.

Unstable Geomancer: {Skill} Each unit at range 1-{unstable energy} (except you) suffers damage equal to the number of trays in its unit.

-This may be too strong, but I want to see it in action. You still need to build your army around small units to avoid killing yourself too hard. If it's really good it may give Golems a boost as solo and duo Golems will not be vulnerable to it.

Storm Sorceress: {Skill} Roll {unstable energy} blue dice. For each {surge}, choose an enemy at range 1-5. Each chosen enemy suffers 2 damage.

-This makes the upgrade much more consistent but less likely to spike for 8 damage (though it has some pretty long odds to spike over 10 on rounds with 4 reds). The math on this is .5 surges per blue die rolled on average ((2/8 * (# of dice) + (1/8 * (# of dice)*2)=number of surges). Currently you always have a 3/8 chance of rolling a surge at all. I thought about re-writing it to have re-rolls with ranks, but I love the idea of just rolling more dice, like Maro.

Captivating Hexer: Enemies engaged with you cannot perform a {shift}. Exhaust this card and choose an enemy at range 1 and in line of site. That enemy must perform a speed 1 {shift} towards you

-This is much more useful for its cost. Keep in mind that this will not always result in a collision as range 1 is slightly farther than march/shift 1.

Feeding Frenzy: When an enemy engaged with you loses 1 or more trays, for each tray lost, place 1 wound token on this card. For every 2 wound tokens on this card, you gain Lethal 1.

-I just feel this upgrade needs a boost to compete with dead sprint which has been incredibly good in our local games. It just gives too much flexibility to pass on for only 4 points. Feeding Frenzy my also be better if dead sprint got a nerf, but I don't think I'm ready to go there yet...

I'm sure there are more upgrades that could use a tweak to encourage more variety in army building, but these are the top ones on my list.

Updated the Spined Thresher and Rune Golems (see the top post).

Spined Threshers

I realized that changing the dial is not a "smooth" integration in the game since you don't want to glue on your dials. So instead of scratching the hit on the modifier, the reroll engine got canned. This increases the incitament to bring 2x2 instead of spamming 2x1 so that you get that reroll. The nerf is probably a bit weaker though since the rolls might still be great.

Rune Golems

Thanks @Bhelliom for pointing out that pretty much repeating abilities is not good enough. Since the reroll engine got scrapped from the Threshers and the collision ability got scrapped, bumping up range of the Special action instead, I think its now green light in this regard?

You want the 2x1 for the extra threat, and the 2x2 for the reroll. The reroll ability has a precondition and only one die, you still want the extra rank reroll.

Since Waiqar players usually have a spare Ardus dial to mess with, I added an adjusted one to this post (in the top). There is no reason for him not having the speed 1 move (except that it can be nullified by turning charge which I guess was too complex rules-wise to have in the base set?). And swinging two axes, with a blank spot on the dial, shouldn't he have a late attack as well, just as Ravos?

8 hours ago, Maktorius said:

There is no reason for him not having the speed 1 move (except that it can be nullified by turning charge which I guess was too complex rules-wise to have in the base set?).

If that were true, then Reanimates should not have had a 2-speed march because that can get nullified by the wheel modifier (which I have sadly done more often than I care to admit). I agree that it's strange for him to not have a 1-speed march. He's a heavily-armored skeleton, after all.

Adjusting the Rune Golems to the announcement of baron Zakareth. And giving Lord Hawthorne the treatment.

• The Rune Golem "fix" with the newly announced hero Zakareth is vitality (life) tokens. I'm not conviced that 1 extra wound total on a unit of these guys does to much if you consider what you pay for fielding him as well. But if we add 1 Vitality bonus from the start, we both go the designers' way and bump them up a bit extra.

• Lord Hawthorne gets Precise. His abilities are really nice, but he really lacks in his own prowess. Fizzling his attack by rolling 0-1 hits (0-2 damage) is not unlikely, and is pretty unsatisfying for a hero like this.

• As I discussed at lenght in the thread linked in the top of this thread, 22 points for a white die is very expensive comparing to Aliana's cavalry upgrade (12p) or the Citadel Weapons master's red (8p). The premium of 10p is for his ability, which situationally could be very strong, but it seems in practice to work more like a deterrent than an ability that actually gets triggered. It also seems to bother others than me (mentioned in the Runecasters podcast I believe) that neither the Spearmen's or Oathsworn's ability to get inspiration tokens ever gets triggered (you want to reroll double surge to get a hit instead). So with the unique surge 1 that gives inspiration token, both these mentioned issues of non-triggering abilities gets smoothed out a little bit by at least getting something.

I’m not sure I would touch Hawthorne. He sees a lot of table time as is. That table time is both as a figure and hero. I also enjoy that the implication is that he is a blustery knight who tells a good yarn, encourages the lads, and can actually run a battle effectively, but sucks as a fighter.

I mean, you get an inspiration generation mechanic from him unmatched by anything else, a reform army ability that can up damage output big time, and the ability to tank damage pretty well. Shield of Margath makes that really to deal with. Now if you run him and Zach, he get gets 1HP a turn and will likely do 5 damage to every melee unit that touches him. He doesn’t need precise on top of all of that. There would be no reason to ever not run him

1 hour ago, Church14 said:

I’m not sure I would touch Hawthorne. He sees a lot of table time as is. That table time is both as a figure and hero. I also enjoy that the implication is that he is a blustery knight who tells a good yarn, encourages the lads, and can actually run a battle effectively, but sucks as a fighter.

I mean, you get an inspiration generation mechanic from him unmatched by anything else, a reform army ability that can up damage output big time, and the ability to tank damage pretty well. Shield of Margath makes that really to deal with. Now if you run him and Zach, he get gets 1HP a turn and will likely do 5 damage to every melee unit that touches him. He doesn’t need precise on top of all of that. There would be no reason to ever not run him

I'm grateful for-, and certainly open to your points, and if more people agree with you I will drop them.

I just want to give a shot at a "defence":

Firstly, does he see table time because he is one of the better options of the faction, or because he is genuinly competetive in the landscape of factions and units? From what I'm gathering on this forum and the podcasts, Daqan is described as less powerful than Latari and Uthuk, which would suggest the former. What do you think?

Secondly, but not easily done I realize, comparing him to the announced Kethra, who is equally priced and (with some imagination) has similar (but opposingly functioning) abilites, Hawthorne lacks Precise, has a worse dice, no modifier on the early attack, worse surge ability and (subjectively) worse unique upgrades, though she has one life less.

Thirdly, I can see the combo with Zach, but Zach is not free so I guess he is expected to contribute. And one extra HP, possible for the alternative cost of something else, is nice but time will tell what the power level is.

Regarding the infantry and cavalry upgrades, if you or anyone else has a more detailed description of your view I can revaluate or argue it more easily beyond the reasons I gave in the post.

Thanks!

2 hours ago, Maktorius said:

I'm grateful for-, and certainly open to your points, and if more people agree with you I will drop them.

I just want to give a shot at a "defence":

 Firstly, does he see table time because he is one of the better options of the faction, or because he is genuinly competetive in the landscape of factions and units? From what I'm gathering on this forum and the podcasts, Daqan is described as less powerful than Latari and Uthuk, which would suggest the former. What do you think?

  Secondly, but not easily done I realize, comparing him to the announced Kethra, who is equally priced and (with some imagination) has similar (but opposingly functioning) abilites, Hawthorne lacks Precise, has a worse dice, no modifier on the early attack, worse surge ability and (subjectively) worse unique upgrades, though she has one life less.

  Thirdly, I can see the combo with Zach, but Zach is not free so I guess he is expected to contribute. And one extra HP, possible for the alternative cost of something else, is nice but time will tell what the power level is.

 Regarding the infantry and cavalry upgr  ades, if you or anyone else has a more detailed description of your view I can revaluate or argue it more easily  beyond the reasons I gave in the post.

 Thanks!

I agree with Church in that his ability to generate inspiration is extremely valuable. I also think he has a great passive ability that is easy to undervalue. As a Waiqar player who runs a lot of blight, the only thing I hate seeing across the table as much as an Uthuk army (well almost as much) is Hawthorne.

I do think that his champion upgrades are overpriced though. I think your tweak is good, thematic to the character, and wouldn't break them in any way.

Thanks for the feedback! I've now dropped Lord Hawthorne bump-up (Precise).

Looking more into Waiqar I added:

Since the Reanimates in infantry form seems biologically/magically similar (or the same) to their ranged kind, leaving the Regenerate ability out must be a designed nerf. And the thematically paradoxal nerfs are what I'm targeting for these bump-ups. I can't see this breaking this unit, as they seem to be either full or dead. Also, Regenerate on Reanimates have not done as much work for me as I'd hoped either, so this should have a limited effect.

Edit: Spelling

6 hours ago, Maktorius said:

Thanks for the feedback! I've now dropped Lord Hawthorne bump-up (Precise).

Looking more into Waiqar I added:

Since the Reanimates in infantry form seems biologically/magically similar (or the same) to their ranged kind, leving the Regenerate ability out must be a designed nerf. And those themtacially paradoxal nerfs are what I'm targeting for the bump-ups. I can't see this breaking them, as they seem to be either full or dead. Also, Regenerate on Reanimates have not done as much work for me as I'd hoped either.

I feel like them not having regenerate was for one of two purposes. Either they wanted them very susceptible to chip damage or they wanted to future proof them against some crazy Waiqar upgrade/hero that allows regenerate to add trays. As things exist now, your change feels good and shouldn’t break anything.

9 hours ago, Maktorius said:

Thanks for the feedback! I've now dropped Lord Hawthorne bump-up (Precise).

Looking more into Waiqar I added:

Since the Reanimates in infantry form seems biologically/magically similar (or the same) to their ranged kind, leaving the Regenerate ability out must be a designed nerf. And the thematically paradoxal nerfs are what I'm targeting for these bump-ups. I can't see this breaking this unit, as they seem to be either full or dead. Also, Regenerate on Reanimates have not done as much work for me as I'd hoped either, so this should have a limited effect.

I second this change. It has always bothered me that Reanimates have regenerate and archers don't. This would also open up running lingering dead as a possibly viable upgrade on them.

If only I could run them with a Necromancer too...

If a group has problems evaluating these adjustments, both technically and power level-wise, thus having a hard time accepting them, are there any alternatives to the method?

Tabletop Admiral allows to make lists larger than 200p. ´What do you think about "allowing" a factionwide adjustment on points? Let's say that Waiqar gets a -10p adjustment to their army's total cost and Uthuk gets a +10p adjustment when checking army costs and deciding first player, the net must still be limitied to 200p. Would that be too much, too little, wrong focus or just too weird?

2 hours ago, Maktorius said:

If a group has problems evaluating these adjustments, both technically and power level-wise, thus having a hard time accepting them, are there any alternatives to the method?

Tabletop Admiral allows to make lists larger than 200p. ´What do you think about "allowing" a factionwide adjustment on points? Let's say that Waiqar gets a -10p adjustment to their army's total cost and Uthuk gets a +10p adjustment when checking army costs and deciding first player, the net must still be limitied to 200p. Would that be too much, too little, wrong focus or just too weird?

This is something we've discussed doing in our local group. Just giving a weak faction a points handicap could go a long way and doesn't require much effort.

That said I personally would prefer balance changes like the ones you have here.

Unfortunately it has been hard to get playtesting games in (who would have known

But tonight I finally got a game in vs Uthuk.

Waiqar (200p):

Ardus IxErebus [37] 1x1
Ardus Fury [1]
Total Unit Cost: 38
Adjustments: Precise, can dial in init 3 speed 1 move or init 7 attack.
Reanimates [35] 3x2
Ankaur Maro (I) [20]
Support Carrion Lancer [6]
Simultaneous Orders [2]
Total Unit Cost: 63

Adjustments: Ankaur can add trays to his own unit, Carrion lancer can blight engaged units.

This unit was my main worry that it would be to powerful. Being able to both raise trays AND put on blight.

Reanimate Archers [18] 2x1
Combat Ingenuity [6]
Total Unit Cost: 24
Adjustment: Regenerate
Carrion Lancers [27] 2x1
Rank Discipline [4]
Total Unit Cost: 31
Adjustment: Can blight engaged units
Carrion Lancers [15] 1x1
Total Unit Cost: 15
Adjustment: Can blight engaged units
Death Knights [24] 2x1
Obcasiums Gauntlet [5]
Total Unit Cost: 29

Uthuk (197p):

Ravos the Everhungry [40] 1x1
Viscera Goblet [7]
Total Unit Cost: 47
Adjustment: No unique upgrade slot.
Flesh Rippers [38] 2x2
Moment of Inspiration [5]
Dead Sprint [4]
Total Unit Cost: 47

Flesh Rippers [38] 2x2
Moment of Inspiration [5]
Dead Sprint [4]
Total Unit Cost: 47

Spined Threshers [28] 2x1
Total Unit Cost: 28

Spined Threshers [28] 2x1
Total Unit Cost: 28
We did skip using the nerf that removed the re-roll ability.

Setup:

First player - Waiqar (Uthuk's choice)

Objective - Demoralize their forces (flank charge = 20p)

Deployment - Unprepared (5 deep for Waiqar, 1 deep for Uthuk)

Terrain: The game pretty much was played out on 1 of the play mats. The Swamp was in the middle-left of it, and the Rocky outcrop was in the center of it. The elvish fountain was way off on the other mat.

Score (core rules point scoring):

Waiqar - 89p, no objectives

Uthuk - 71p (of which 40 was objectives).

Basic matchup and notable events:

Ardus + 2x1 archers vs Ravos:

-The archers became a 2x2 turn 3 by Ankaur

-Ravos overextended turn 2, which actually gave Ardus the charge turn 3. Ravos got totally blighted out and was brought down turn 5 with 2 wounds on Ardus from nibbling. The only adjustment at play, except for the lack of unique upgrades on Ravos, was Precise and init 3 speed 1 move and init 7 late attack, all on Ardus. Ardus did not use any of them as he rolled fenomenal and did not need to reroll. Though it could of course have been crucial. If Ravos had won the charge (with insatiable hunger turn 1 for positioning or with 4 unstable runes turn 2 or 3, Ravos would probably had won that duel and then charged into the archers. This would have most likely turned the game.

-After Ravos death, the archers had both units of Spined thresher in LoS and worked on them. Ardus did not contribute to the last couple of rounds.

2x1 Lancers with Ranked vs 2x1 Spined threshers:

-The lancers won the charge with a init 7 speed 4 charge to the Swamp, where the Threshers just had moved in.

-The fight was a tie, but when it was down to 1x1 vs 1x1 the Spined threshers drew the moral test that made the lancer reform and run away. The spined threshers vacated the Swamp the next turn and got a flank charge on Ardus the turn after that. But he had armored up and the Archers finished them.

2x1 Death knights vs 2x1 Spined threshers:

-The Threshers got the flank charge on the Knights (who were looking at Ravos). But they did not roll well for a couple of rounds. The knights planted the Death's grasp, and even though they died, they held up the threshers so that the Archers could finish them in the late stage of the game.

Reanimates with Ankaur + 1x1 Lancer vs 2 units of 2x2 Flesh rippers:

- The Rippers flew accross the field moving 7 speed at turn 1. But the lancer (with dialed in shield) held up the unit of Rippers that were coming in from the the side of the Waiqar army until turn 4.

- Ankaur raised a total of 6 trays of reanimates and 2 trays of archers. As the reanimates only managed to regenerate a total of 2 skeletons during the game, the net was 4,5 trays of reanimates and 2 archers.

- The reanimates had good success vs the first Flesh ripper unit thanks to Ankaurs necromancy, but when the other one came in, and drew the morale card that made them show their back to the Rippers (for the rest of the game) they were in trouble. Another morale card another round also gave a stun token, which shut down Ankaur+Support lancer for that round. Left on the field from this matchup in the end was the single Support lancer and 3 trays of Rippers.

Other general notes:

No Waiqar unit actually left it's deployment zone. So any objective where you would have had to go out and get something would have been more problematic. But turn 7, both Ardus and 1 lancer was free and COULD have gone for objectives.

Notes on the balancing adjustments:

-We both felt that the adjustments did not "break" anything during the match. It was a close game all over the battlefield. Waiqar had some rune-luck and timing to win some charges, which they don't usually do, and the blockers did a great job (though those was not affected by the adjustments) at staying alive with a bit of luck, which enabled the Archers and Reanimate blob to fight enemies in piecemeal.

-Ravos becomes much less oppressive without his upgrades. He still might have won the game without them if he had won the duel against Ardus n' friends and move into the thick of the Waiqar army.

-Precise and Dial adjustment on Ardus did not come in to play. The most notabel thing was him allowing the Heavy upgrade on the 3x2 Reanimates.

-Ankaur being able to raise trays in his own unit just felt natural. Without that ability the match would have been a major loss with Rippers pouring in from the side after rolling over the reanimates (who would have had 4,5 trays less during the game).

-The Lancers ability to blight engaged units also felt natural. My opponent did feel so-so when the Reanimates engaged with a 2x2 ripper still could blight a Thresher unit that was in front of it (since the Reanimate unit was wider). Though that would actually have been the only target following the original rules. So his suggestion was to merge the adjustment by limiting the blighting to the unit blighter was engaged with when there is one. But on the other hand, this situation only occurs when the blighter is wider than what it is engaged with due to the LoS restrictment (and that the target still is in front).

- The simultaneous orders, allowing both of the special actions mentioned above on the reanimates, did actually not feel weird either (well, not more than it usually does). It's very powerful, but just the upgrades costs 28p + you have to have Ardus for it to work on the 3x2.

-Closing thoughts after this game: Maybe Precise on Ardus can be cut.

Edit:

Cleaned up the writing a bit.

I do think the change to re-animates may phush them over the top with re-generate compare them with a two tray of Deepwood or Crossbowmen. Deepwood get two blue dice vs blue, red caping their dammage. The precise is good and may compansate for the dice but the spesial by blighting is someting that i find stronger than shifting one altough less reliable. There is a one point difference.

- fire rune is stronger on deepwoods*

Now compare them to the two-tray crossbowmen with equal dice. The crossbows got protected one and a mortal strike range 1-3. Reanimates archers got blight generation and a ability to re-generate 1,5 average dammage. For the protection to be stronger they need to be attacked more than one time in one round. re-generate also works when they dont get attacked. Blight vs mortal 1-3 is debateble altough i feel blight has more diverse uses. crosbowmen is costed one higher then re-archers.

Add that they also got steadfast [dubt]

The maro figure upgrade is going to be strong with this reanimate archer buff.

Now thematicly i do agree that they shuld have the same regenerate-ability.