Ive founfld when they manage to shoot a few times atrts with the rotaries are awesome. The surge is really powerful.

Its just the imperials are learning that 3 bikes is just a massive mobile firepower concentration.

And in an objective based game there are plenty of opportunities for them to shred key units.

I probably need more practice.

On 5/27/2018 at 4:05 AM, Ophion said:

So how do rebels compete considering bikes dlts and the atst? The t47 seems to be pretty much written off. Im struggling.

Leia has helped me a lot. She's SO GOOD at countering suppression with Inspire 2. She can single-handedly keep your troopers mobile and finding good cover, and able to retain their action efficiency (so you can fire off aimed attacks, often while benefitting from a dodge token in addition to your cover) when hunkered down in cover. Against DLT Stormtroopers, you want to advance out of that range 4 band -- at range 3, you get to return fire at all (and the quality of your fire is better, especially if you can aim with your Z-6) and the increase in their offensive effectiveness by adding in the E-11s is overshadowed by your own firepower.

Also, remember that mirror matches are a thing (thematically dumb as they are). AT-RTs fare better against Rebel opponents who have a harder time wearing them down with basic corps units.

10 hours ago, Jake the Hutt said:

Maybe its just poor dice? The AT-RTs seem good at landing suppression but bad at actually causing any casualties. Red dice Stormtroopers are just too likely to make their saves.

Red defense dice are good, but cover and dodging doesn't care what color defense dice you're rolling. If you're returning fire, and have Leia with you, you can win the suppression war, which is a huge deal in this game. Suppressed Stormtroopers just aren't all that intimidating; they're not getting to reroll their white dice, so they often have trouble punching through the cover and dodging to actually make you roll that many dice on defense. I usually figure on a full squad of Stormtroopers forcing me to roll 3 dice with no cover. Heavy cover and a dodge token on a nimble trooper? Well... I may be getting suppressed, but I'm not losing any guys to that kind of fire, either.

6 hours ago, Ophion said:

Ive founfld when they manage to shoot a few times atrts with the rotaries are awesome. The surge is really powerful.

Its just the imperials are learning that 3 bikes is just a massive mobile firepower concentration.

And in an objective based game there are plenty of opportunities for them to shred key units.

I probably need more practice.

So the speeder bikes have an interesting weakness. If you can at least drop 1, going down from 6 dice to 3 hurts their damage output a lot. It makes it a lit harder to power through even very basic buffs like a dodge token or cover and 3 dice with Impact 1 also isn't a substantial threat to vehicles.

They're like Bishops in Chess, very powerful when you have 2, but struggle if 1 ever dies. In that regard, I always try to engineer scenarios where I can snipe 1 of the bikers out of each unit before trying to finish them off. T-47s are particularly good at this and looking for chances to setup Standby traps can hurt their utility a lot. You can also try to bait them out. Once they do their initial pass, Leia is actually a great counter to them with her SS pierce gun (only a few games in with her and she's already done this twice). Then of course, you have the classic Luke murder bubble that can block off whole areas or punish severely any unit that wanders in.

I think 3 speeders is too much of a good thing. The interesting tactics that you can do with 1 gets harder harder the more you add. Finding those chances to dip in and out for free damage is much harder meaning the extra units rarely get much more utility than just having more infantry. I ran into the same issue using multiple T-47s and every speeder spam list I've gone against has suffered as the units were just too easy to pick off any time they were forced into suboptimal activation orders.

AT-RTs are a good platform as long as they are the ones shooting, not the ones being shot at. So that's why I get Lasers on them.

Or when there's ahorde of them (mix of naked and flamethrowers does wonders: They focus fire the flamethrowers and do not realise the naked ones can actually displace their whole line and engage in melee.

10 hours ago, kaffis said:

Red defense dice are good, but cover and dodging doesn't care what color defense dice you're rolling. If you're returning fire, and have Leia with you, you can win the suppression war, which is a huge deal in this game. Suppressed Stormtroopers just aren't all that intimidating; they're not getting to reroll their white dice, so they often have trouble punching through the cover and dodging to actually make you roll that many dice on defense. I usually figure on a full squad of Stormtroopers forcing me to roll 3 dice with no cover. Heavy cover and a dodge token on a nimble trooper? Well... I may be getting suppressed, but I'm not losing any guys to that kind of fire, either.

I wasn't talking about Stormtroopers vs Squads Rebel squads though (although I mostly agree with you). I was talking about AT-RTs. What I'm finding is that A single shot from a Stormtrooper squad with their missile launcher is often enough to cripple my AT-RT, and after that regular shooting usually finishes it of (if they don't just ignore it, which they often can and should). So it doesn't matter if Stormtroopers are suppressed or not. They can deal with the AT-RT just fine without much danger of taking any casualties and be in a great position to shed their suppression tokens and reload their guns with a Recover action (again, in my experience).

I'm not saying this makes them broken or impossible to deal with by the way. I just think regular Rebel Squads have a much easier time dealing with Stormtroopers. At-RT's are just poor at it.

2 hours ago, Jake the Hutt said:

I wasn't talking about Stormtroopers vs Squads Rebel squads though (although I mostly agree with you). I was talking about AT-RTs. What I'm finding is that A single shot from a Stormtrooper squad with their missile launcher is often enough to cripple my AT-RT, and after that regular shooting usually finishes it of (if they don't just ignore it, which they often can and should). So it doesn't matter if Stormtroopers are suppressed or not. They can deal with the AT-RT just fine without much danger of taking any casualties and be in a great position to shed their suppression tokens and reload their guns with a Recover action (again, in my experience).

I'm not saying this makes them broken or impossible to deal with by the way. I just think regular Rebel Squads have a much easier time dealing with Stormtroopers. At-RT's are just poor at it.

You said “Stormtroopers” and “Missile Launcher”...

I disbelieve the possibility.

... according to the accumulated forum wisdom, that’s a nigh-impossible situation.

??

4 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

You said “Stormtroopers” and “Missile Launcher”...

I disbelieve the possibility.

... according to the accumulated forum wisdom, that’s a nigh-impossible situation.

??

I don't understand what you're saying.

3 minutes ago, Jake the Hutt said:

I don't understand what you're saying.

“No one takes missile launchers, you’re lying about a fake situation.”

?

being sarcastically facetious of course

1 minute ago, Drasnighta said:

“No one takes missile launchers, you’re lying about a fake situation.”

?

being sarcastically facetious of course

Oh, I see.

But really, the situation isn't much better for the AT-RT against DLT squads, since those squads are also bringing Impact and are much more likely to be able to take Aim tokens and take advantage of Precise. My point is that Stormtroopers are really good at taking out AT-RT in a small number of orders with extremely limited losses. Or at least thats been my experience so far.

they work every time I have seen them in action

4 hours ago, Jake the Hutt said:

I wasn't talking about Stormtroopers vs Squads Rebel squads though (although I mostly agree with you). I was talking about AT-RTs. What I'm finding is that A single shot from a Stormtrooper squad with their missile launcher is often enough to cripple my AT-RT, and after that regular shooting usually finishes it of (if they don't just ignore it, which they often can and should). So it doesn't matter if Stormtroopers are suppressed or not. They can deal with the AT-RT just fine without much danger of taking any casualties and be in a great position to shed their suppression tokens and reload their guns with a Recover action (again, in my experience).

I'm not saying this makes them broken or impossible to deal with by the way. I just think regular Rebel Squads have a much easier time dealing with Stormtroopers. At-RT's are just poor at it.

Ummm that's the missile launchers job. I hope it is succeeding at it

3 hours ago, Tirion said:

Ummm that's the missile launchers job. I hope it is succeeding at it

Yes, that was my point. The AT-RT isn't particularly good because it becomes disabled or is destroyed too fast. The missile launcher is part of what enables that.

Edit: And by "isn't particularly good" I mean that this is the problem I'm currently having. It may be that I'm playing the unit poorly, experiencing bad luck, facing a much better opponent, having poor match ups or that as play options broaden the AT-RT will find more suitable prey. but right now Stormtrooper squads are making short work of the unit in every game i play.

I think I may eventually lose the flamethrower AT-RT depending on my next few games where I plan to hide it near an objective until needed, though that seems to be a terrain and objective dependent plan.

On the other hand, my laser cannon AT-RT has never let me down. I've never actually faced a vehicle to use it's impact key word, but the accuracy of a red die combined with the surge means that it tends to give out suppression reliably at range 4. The range is particularly important as it can sit out of range of retaliatory fire beyond heavy weapons firing independently. If a squad does go hunting it, they're not moving on objectives.

It's a sniper that can't be suppressed and is hard to damage without using heavy weapons and can climb terrain without penalty. It's not something I'd spam even if I were that way inclined but it's a very handy tool.

If you run flamers pick objectives like "Intercept the Transmissions" and shoot for "Limited Visibility" and deployments where you can get close. Battle Lines is especially awesome because of how close you start to your opponent. They present a clear threat to your opponent and they are something that must be dealt with. Even if they don't get a shot off, they can create strategic openings by their mere presence, sort of like an AT-ST.

On 5/26/2018 at 7:51 PM, Mep said:

It's a rock paper scissors world. Their defense is Armor not dice. Don't put them in a position to get wrecked by anything with impact. You can use them as pawns to draw fire while you get your better troop units in position or shoot at range 4 and plink away at enemy troopers forcing your opponent to react. They are a strategic weapons, not a tactical one. For that, you one to use miniguns and lots of them.

This ...

My experience is running at least one with the Laser Canon gives you an "artillery" presence. Paying for the extra range and, potentially, needed ability to handle armor. Place it last during set-up. Run long range comm. Be in control of when it activates and put down suppression fire in R1. Or run a couple with the Canon and do the same. I have done this correctly and in R1, someone walked right into range; suppressed and 2 units gone by end of R2. They never moved again. Never fired a shot.

Ignore the AT-ST, while forcing the opponent to decide ... shoot the AT-RT or shoot the units. Word distraction is being used. I prefer opponent's choice or making them divide their fire between units. Not just throwing away the points sunken into the AT-RT. Simply making my opponent decide how to allocate their fire and, hopefully, they divide it between multiple units, which means my AT-RT lives longer. Or my squads. Or both. But by no means just donate an AT-RT for clear demise or throw it out there for target practice.

Create LONG firing lanes due to either R4 (Canon) or R3 (Z6). Attempt to have 2 of the AT-RT with arcs that intersect the field like an "x" The terrain will always have natural lanes. During set-up put the canons in position to own the lanes. Let the opponent walk into the lane vs walking the walker into the field. I knew my years of archery hunting would eventual pay dividends in other ways.

When archery hunting, you pre-range trees or rocks or colored grass patches ... objects ... LONG before anything walks into view. You know this tree is at 40 yards ... shrubs at 30 yards ... boulder at 20 yards ... you are prepared, as you only have a few seconds to make a decision when necessary.

You can range at any moment once the game starts on your turn. Use that to your advantage on your very first activation. Get an idea of what building or rock or vehicle ... object ... is at R3 or R3 or R2 at the intersections of long firing lanes ... pinch points ... and at the end of each firing lane. Plan AT-RT moves or non moves around controlling those and move your squads to cover areas on the sides of those lanes, while in pursuit of objectives. Either way when the opponent moves he is most likely walking into range of the squad or the AT-RT.

Likewise, you can walk the AT-RT backwards. It is possible to walk back; still be in range of the target/shoot, while no longer being in range for a volley back. Laser Canon at 4 allows this. Then, you can walk right back into range on the next turn.

If I use a 3rd AT-RT, wander and force some action or, if needed, tie up the AT-ST, as to allow the troopers the chance to move around. I finally realized the game is not about killing all the other guy's minis ... even though that is awesome ... it is about objects and, perhaps, time measured objectives in game. That 3rd AT-RT is like a cattle dog or bird dog. Funnel the herd or flush the birds in a desired direction.

Sort of had a new guy, break through gaming moment in my last game. Someone that whipped my tail 2 weeks ago spent a solid 30 minutes post game helping me. You did this ... consider this ... don't be so quick to do this ... wait on this ... really solid gamesmen stuff. Made notes. Applied in most recent game.

Last game I let my opponent come into range. Suppressed. I knew what corners and edges of firing lanes were at distance 2-4. Then, used the nimble/quick function of the Rebel squads and Luke to quickly get into range at start of R2 and just ripped through stuff. Once I knew I had units pinned I made sure I won priority in R2. Luke and troopers move in to finish off squads/claim objectives and the fire of the AT-RT moved onto other units, which were now also in range.

I feel the Rebels require a little more of an aggressive/move play style. Definitely require thinking 3 moves ahead, as let's face it. White defense dice are HORRIBLE and many Rebels will die. Quickly. Keep the squads moving. The AT-RT, though, can be parked and used pretty effectively or engaged and walked out of range.

I tried the Flame Thrower once. Blown apart after it moved in R1 and before it was shot. Priority target vs target of opportunity. Wasted points. Admittedly, I am not a savvy enough gamer to pull of the FT yet. HIGH cool factor. LOW ROI for me.

Not an expert by any means. Have just learned from my mistakes and started to figure out how to leverage the AT-RT and couple them with Luke's jack rabbit movement. I have not found the AT-RT to be as faulty as others.

Lots of good meat to chew on there @Dash Two, thank you for your input.

4 hours ago, Dash Two said:

Not an expert by any means. Have just learned from my mistakes and started to figure out how to leverage the AT-RT and couple them with Luke's jack rabbit movement. I have not found the AT-RT to be as faulty as others.

Great post, lots of food for thought! Thanks!

On 5/28/2018 at 8:11 PM, Jake the Hutt said:

Oh, I see.

But really, the situation isn't much better for the AT-RT against DLT squads, since those squads are also bringing Impact and are much more likely to be able to take Aim tokens and take advantage of Precise. My point is that Stormtroopers are really good at taking out AT-RT in a small number of orders with extremely limited losses. Or at least thats been my experience so far.

A stormtrooper squad upgraded with rockets, DLT, and/or impact grenades should be able to handle an ATRT. At that point, your upgraded stormtroopers are comparable in cost to an ATRT with a hard point. It comes down to who attacks first. An ATRT with a rotary canon (my favorite version of the ATRT) will shred any unit of stormtroopers but is equally vulnerable to upgraded stormtroopers. This is how it should be, since it becomes about tactics and positioning to get that first shot.

As Dash Two says, I’ve found the laser based AT RT a real pain as an imperial player. It forces suppression on my troops slowing me down, while forcing me to choose whether to waste time going after it or heading towards the objectives.

AT RT are a bullet magnet, position them correctly and imperial players have to pay attention allowing the troopers to slip behind for the objectives.