Back when the wave 4 duo came out, the general consensus was that with both beefy and agile ships, the defender was an over-priced brawler that bleeds and the phantom a terror that hit way too hard for how impossible it was to hit. Enter X7 and D titles, PS 10+ being standard, bombs, better options for ace-gameplay, stress control, and of course TLT, it is clear that the jousting-heavy Defender can be an affordable 1/3 of your list that is significantly durable, offers great area control, and is more viable than the clunky arc-dodger of the Phantom. Despite being conceived as somewhat similar ships, we see far more of one than the other.

But now, not only with 2.0 rebalancing so that all ships at launch are viable and position-dependent as opposed to token-reliant with absurd offense or silly impenetrable defense to balance against old turrets, the Phantom looks to be the cheap one whilst the Defender is going to be the pricey (probably incredibly expensive) monster. Baseline Phantoms have a nerf to their cloaking mod, a nerf to their attack, and their clutch fire control system being gone, although they do have a hull upgrade and will be significantly cheaper with far more viable generics. On the other hand, baseline Defenders have nothing but buffs (aside from the evade token nerf, but statistically you roll triple paint only 1/4 of the time on defense), with 1 banks being green, native boost, native evade without having to go fast, built-in X7 (and thus one of the few 2.0 methods of token stacking), a shield upgrade and a red 2-K for those rare cases where you realize you set up your lanes/joust wrong and you really need those guns on target now.

Granted, all the excitement of 2.0 is realizing that with the changes to core designs results in having to entirely relearn the game and cast aside old 1.0 presuppositions that we have forgotten were unnatural assumptions derived from powercreep...but I think that these sisterships will continue to have an interesting relationship with very well-defined roles and their own changes of fortune that seem to be on opposite ends of fate's favor.

8 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

Back when the wave 4 duo came out, the general consensus was that with both beefy and agile ships, the defender was an over-priced brawler that bleeds and the phantom a terror that hit way too hard for how impossible it was to hit. Enter X7 and D titles, PS 10+ being standard, bombs, better options for ace-gameplay, stress control, and of course TLT, it is clear that the jousting-heavy Defender can be an affordable 1/3 of your list that is significantly durable, offers great area control, and is more viable than the clunky arc-dodger of the Phantom. Despite being conceived as somewhat similar ships, we see far more of one than the other.

But now, not only with 2.0 rebalancing so that all ships at launch are viable and position-dependent as opposed to token-reliant with absurd offense or silly impenetrable defense to balance against old turrets, the Phantom looks to be the cheap one whilst the Defender is going to be the pricey (probably incredibly expensive) monster. Baseline Phantoms have a nerf to their cloaking mod, a nerf to their attack, and their clutch fire control system being gone, although they do have a hull upgrade and will be significantly cheaper with far more viable generics. On the other hand, baseline Defenders have nothing but buffs (aside from the evade token nerf, but statistically you roll triple paint only 1/4 of the time on defense), with 1 banks being green, native boost, native evade without having to go fast, built-in X7 (and thus one of the few 2.0 methods of token stacking), a shield upgrade and a red 2-K for those rare cases where you realize you set up your lanes/joust wrong and you really need those guns on target now.

Granted, all the excitement of 2.0 is realizing that with the changes to core designs results in having to entirely relearn the game and cast aside old 1.0 presuppositions that we have forgotten were unnatural assumptions derived from powercreep...but I think that these sisterships will continue to have an interesting relationship with very well-defined rolls and their own changes of fortune that seem to be on opposite ends of fate's favor.

Empire's experimental weapon's division:

2 generic phantoms 1 defender ace

You won't catch them in arc, if you do, prepare for the token stack... oh and they hit hard. One of the Phantoms could even carry Krennic, if there are points for him.

24 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

But now, not only with 2.0 rebalancing so that all ships at launch are viable

You're dreaming if you think 2.0 is going to be balanced at launch. FFG has publicly confessed that they don't know how to balance these ships in-house. It's probably going to take weeks, if not months, of public playtesting before the vast majority of the ships in the game are competitively balanced.

Just nitpicking, the rest of your wall of text is probably fine and 100% accurate.

54 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

But now, not only with 2.0 rebalancing so that all ships at launch are viable

Sure it's already been quoted, but I can't help jumping on this line. The app is awesome because FFG is complete trash at releasing ships that are balanced. 2e may be MORE imbalanced that 1e on release. After the 1st big app recosting it will swiftly be better than 1e. I'll be curious to see which pilots FFG INTENTIONALLY keeps underpowered. This will be revealed after 9-12 months of app rebalancing.

The TIE Phantom redesign mechanics all appear very good. It will just be a matter of narrowing down the right costing. It may take longer for this ship because there is nothing else like it.

Not really worried about phantom or defender token stacking

Phantom loses its token stacking moment you knock off it's evade the first time, as it needs that evade to recloak. Only whisper can "tank" with Stygium, for the rest it's a good one-use failsafe

I think phantoms will be very solid, though, because they'll be priced like xwings (...please, ffg?)

As for the defender, it's only on a "fully executed" manuever so block that mother

Palob rofls at either

I think both will be "fine", neither seem too crazy like the Wave 4 phantom did

My "potentially crazy" standard is rebel turret Gunners (sure Luke, but the double-tap Han/Vet with a VCX could be a huge issue) and hard alpha Ewings. Both have ridiculous burst potential. If I had to doomsay on the meta, they'd be my boogiemen

So really, the tables turning are still Wave 4, but it's the E-wings coming out on top.

17 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Not really worried about phantom or defender token stacking

Phantom loses its token stacking moment you knock off it's evade the first time, as it needs that evade to recloak. Only whisper can "tank" with Stygium, for the rest it's a good one-use failsafe

I think phantoms will be very solid, though, because they'll be priced like xwings (...please, ffg?)

As for the defender, it's only on a "fully executed" manuever so block that mother

Palob rofls at either

I think both will be "fine", neither seem too crazy like the Wave 4 phantom did

My "potentially crazy" standard is rebel turret Gunners (sure Luke, but the double-tap Han/Vet with a VCX could be a huge issue) and hard alpha Ewings. Both have ridiculous burst potential. If I had to doomsay on the meta, they'd be my boogiemen

So really, the tables turning are still Wave 4, but it's the E-wings coming out on top.

But that is how it always has been after the X7 nerf, so no change to TIE Defender defense. Yay!

I've always despised both ships, LONG before this game. The TIE Defender was ridiculous the moment they introduced it in the TIE Fighter PC game (ESPECIALLY with the broken beam mechanics; load a beam on your ship, redirect all its power to engines, and it was basically like a big battery that turbocharged you). Its only saving grace was that it wasn't the even MORE over the top Missile Boat. And the Phantom breaks the established Lore on cloaking technology when it first turned up in Rebel Assault II. Then the Defender got introduced in the WEG RPG and it got even MORE absurd (its Space speed was TWICE that of the T-65B. with the 12.5 WEG > MGLT conversion it worked out to a whopping 200MGLT!)

20 minutes ago, Ambaryerno said:

I've always despised both ships, LONG before this game. The TIE Defender was ridiculous the moment they introduced it in the TIE Fighter PC game (ESPECIALLY with the broken beam mechanics; load a beam on your ship, redirect all its power to engines, and it was basically like a big battery that turbocharged you). Its only saving grace was that it wasn't the even MORE over the top Missile Boat. And the Phantom breaks the established Lore on cloaking technology when it first turned up in Rebel Assault II. Then the Defender got introduced in the WEG RPG and it got even MORE absurd (its Space speed was TWICE that of the T-65B. with the 12.5 WEG > MGLT conversion it worked out to a whopping 200MGLT!)

I'm sorry that your rebel terrorist technology is inferior to that of our military's.

9 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

I'm sorry that your rebel terrorist technology is inferior to that of our military's.

FYI I hate the AC4 (an X-wing that's as fast and maneuverable as the A-wing) for the same reason. Broken is broken, no matter WHICH side it's on. The Empire just gets the worst of it, especially in the fandom (if I had a nickle for every Super TIE I've seen from the fans...)

2 minutes ago, Ambaryerno said:

FYI I hate the AC4 (an X-wing that's as fast and maneuverable as the A-wing) for the same reason. Broken is broken, no matter WHICH side it's on. The Empire just gets the worst of it, especially in the fandom (if I had a nickle for every Super TIE I've seen from the fans...)

But... Shouldn't a galaxy wide spanning military government be able to create overoverpowered fighters?

No, because nohing's more overpowered than plot armor

25 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

But... Shouldn't a galaxy wide spanning military government be able to create overoverpowered fighters?

Only if you don't care about things like an internally consistent universe and suspension of disbelief (there's a reason why superfighters tend not to work out as anything more than an engineer's wet dream. Just ask Nazi Germany).

1 minute ago, Ambaryerno said:

Only if you don't care about things like an internally consistent universe and suspension of disbelief (there's a reason why superfighters tend not to work out as anything more than an engineer's wet dream. Just ask Nazi Germany).

You do realize that this is a fantasy universe with planet destroying super lasers and 20 km long ships...

An empire that can whip out those, can whip out a defender as well.

1 hour ago, Commander Kaine said:

You do realize that this is a fantasy universe with planet destroying super lasers and 20 km long ships...

An empire that can whip out those, can whip out a defender as well.

WOW that's a strawman comparison if ever I've seen one. There's a BIG difference between building a planet-destroying superlaser that needs to be housed in a space station the size of a moon, and squeezing all the things the TIE Defender can do into a frame that small.

Here's it's stats in TIE Fighter:

Speed: 144 MGLT, which makes it considerably faster than everything (throw on a beam weapon and redirect it to engines, and it gets even FASTER)
Maneuverability: 110 DPF, which makes it considerably more MANEUVERABLE than everything
Shields: 100 SBD, which is on-par with the B-Wing
Weapons: 4 laser cannon + 2 ion cannon, which comes out to even more firepower than the B-wing (ions being less powerful than lasers, especially against shields)
Ordinance: 8 missiles (4/tube) or 6 torpedoes (3/tube) which is on par with the X-wing (and with even LESS consideration over where the frell they actually go than the B-wing)

About the only thing it doesn't do well is tank a hit with the shields down (14 RU hull, equal to the A-wing). Which with its combination of speed, maneuverability, and shields isn't much of a factor at all. And it does all of this in a ship only 9 meters in length (about the size of the slower, less maneuverable, and considerably more fragile A-wing).

So yeah, I don't care if it's a "fantasy universe," broken is broken.

meh, personally can't see how it's a problem at all

Since Star Wars seems to be particularly adverse to releasing competent adversaries short of Vader, it only makes sense to compensate with super awesome ships. Considering it's a universe operating on the rule of cool, there really is no reason to think the Defender is broken. It doesn't even have a turret, or a hero at the wheel.

Really, it fits the theme of the rebel/empire conflict. Rebels get the underdog heroes beating the super advanced Empire through pluck and skill. Empires beat them by leveraging their vast resources to drown them in cannon fodder or beating them in submission with the biggest, baddest whatevers in the galaxy (be it starfighters, capital ships, or non-moon Space Stations)

On 5/26/2018 at 10:24 AM, ficklegreendice said:

No, because nohing's more overpowered than plot armor

Unless your name is Daniel Fiorentini, a TIE Silencer is going to flat out annihilate half of that Plot Armor, whilst he (and if his buddies are still around) are going to out-point Poe. That is assuming that Poe is still alive, which is not always a given.

On 5/25/2018 at 3:35 PM, Tvboy said:

You're dreaming if you think 2.0 is going to be balanced at launch. FFG has publicly confessed that they don't know how to balance these ships in-house. It's probably going to take weeks, if not months, of public playtesting before the vast majority of the ships in the game are competitively balanced.

Just nitpicking, the rest of your wall of text is probably fine and 100% accurate.

Depending on pricing I can see one f two lists being dominant when 2.0 launches.

1. Initiative 6 or Bust with both turrets and repositioning ships
2. Swarms with list that can bring a lot of dice and a lot of hitpoints to go through

Now those are like two opposite ends of the spectrum but initially I think that is where it will default to before the initial point corrections come in. Now later we may have some rebel bunker/point fortress or some other wombo-combo list that comes out and takes over requiring both point and upgrade slot adjustment but that won't be until a few more waves and as we all know such eccentricities may be short lived depending on how FFG responds to such lists. But initially it is going to be either swarms with low Int or turrets and aces with Int 6, and will likely default back to one of those whenever major corrections are introduced.

On 5/26/2018 at 10:30 AM, Commander Kaine said:

You do realize that this is a fantasy universe with planet destroying super lasers and 20 km long ships...

An empire that can whip out those, can whip out a defender as well.

There's still a finite amount of resources to allocate.

The Darth Vader comic from Marvel is pretty interesting about this: Grand General Tagge, who wasn't on the Death Star when it blew, maintains that the whole project was a waste, and they should have just built more Super Star Destroyers. Build one fewer planet-killer, get 10 (?) more 20 km ships. Can the whip out Defenders? Sure. But perhaps they could have whipped out ten times that number in TIE Line Fighters, and almost surely the dude in charge of ship procurement owns a 25% stake in the TIE/LN factory, but not the one where they're building Defenders...

The Empire is a vastly unwieldy bureaucracy. That's kind of a key subtext to the fantasy universe, particularly in expanded fiction.

23 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

There's still a finite amount of resources to allocate.

The Darth Vader comic from Marvel is pretty interesting about this: Grand General Tagge, who wasn't on the Death Star when it blew, maintains that the whole project was a waste, and they should have just built more Super Star Destroyers. Build one fewer planet-killer, get 10 (?) more 20 km ships. Can the whip out Defenders? Sure. But perhaps they could have whipped out ten times that number in TIE Line Fighters, and almost surely the dude in charge of ship procurement owns a 25% stake in the TIE/LN factory, but not the one where they're building Defenders...

The Empire is a vastly unwieldy bureaucracy. That's kind of a key subtext to the fantasy universe, particularly in expanded fiction.

The issue is inconsistency. The realities of the world change according to the whim of the writers.

On 5/25/2018 at 5:35 PM, Tvboy said:

You're dreaming if you think 2.0 is going to be balanced at launch. FFG has publicly confessed that they don't know how to balance these ships in-house. It's probably going to take weeks, if not months, of public playtesting before the vast majority of the ships in the game are competitively balanced.

It will be like Starcraft. It will never be balanced, it will always be moving towards balance, the meta will shift often enough to prevent long term dominance of a single list.