Here's the thing. The Psyker always goes first, and if the Psyker goes first, the Vindicare loses, no question. Don't believe me? Consider Preternatural Awareness (which can also be immediately dismissed after it grants him the crucial first turn), and think of all that easily achievable Overbleed.

Also, let's say the Vindicare does Sprint; Force Barrage as a singular example has a range of up to 240 meters, also, assuming WP 80, Psy 10, Telekinetic Discipline Mastery, Power Well 2, Discipline Focus (Telekinesis), Unnatural Willpower 3x. Let's see what this works out to:

Threshold: 16 vs 5.5 * 10 (Psy Rating) + 4 (Power Well 2 & Discipline Focus) + 8 * 3 (WP Bonus 8 & Unnatural Willpower 3x) = 83

So on average, this gives us 13 increments of Overbleed 5, in addition to the base effect. This translates into (24 + 13)*(5.5 + 24) * .8 = 873.2 Damage on average, consisting of 29.6 bolts on average, each bolt dealing 29.5 damage on average. In the immortal words of Trinity: "Dodge this."

Also, let's not forget that a Psyker can sustain multiple powers simultaneously for just such a contingency as a Vindicare; maintaining Barrier, Flameshroud and Preternatural Awareness is very doable for a top level Primaris Psyker, and can be dismissed as needed (as mentioned, Preternatural Awareness is basically disposable). This combination allows the Psyker to always go first, renders him immune to Fire/heat and impact/physical based damage, and 75-50% resistant to just about everything else. Coupled with the dodge/armour/toughness typically available at this level of power, and he is about guaranteed to survive any first strike capability.

Lasers said:

Lasers said:

No. All Temple Assassins get the Temple Assassin trait; which is where all that dodging (and parrying) goodness comes from. And if you read real close, it says they can dodge "invisible psychic attacks." Also says the GM has final say on what does and does not qualify. Moot point really. There's always a bigger fish, or a rock to beat someone elses scissors. Or was it a paper to beat someone elses rock? Anyway...

-=Brother Praetus=-

Its true, there is always a rock to your scissor. And a pysker will have the upper hand somewhere from 75-80% of the time. On that note, I actually don't like the fettered unfettered push rule for the reason of you can have a psyker with psy 10 who can easily overbleed a bunch of times with 0 risk.

Bombernoy said:

Preternatural Awareness is something you basically always keep active if you have it (and of course, it's highly recommended you do); it is too good not to for reasons that should be obvious upon considering the power, and because it does not actually have to be sustained in a combat.

As for the Assassin being a Blank, the simplest answer is the standard Divine Shot plus Heavy Weapon of choice combo (cannot be dodged/avoided/miss by any means), but there are others I've mentioned earlier.

Also, Preternatural is effective at any range where Initiative is rolled and combat is joined; you gain a +20 bonus to your already ludicrous Awareness, and you add 24 to your Initiative, plus another 24 Initiative per 10 Overbleed.

Further, the Psyker can also use Catch Projectiles versus the Exitus Rifle and its munitions, particularly special munitions (nearly forgot about this very handy power).

Finally, the Assassin cannot dodge all 29.6 bolts on AVERAGE (this is after adjusting for the % that misses). He can evade maybe half of them? The 14-15 remaining will overkill easily. Each applies against Toughness and Armour separately, and thus each must be Dodged seperately when they can be Dodged in the first place.

I am also aware that all Temple Assassins get the Temple Assassin trait. That's why I am explicitly assuming the Vindicare can even begin to dodge Force Barrage (and of course, whether he can do so or not at all is completely contingent on the GM).

"Send more Guardsmen. He'll run of ammo... eventually".

No Influence and lots of ennemies made Jack a very dead boy...

Well it sounds like they are as nails in this game as they are in the fluff which is nice. And the very fact that there is an arguement about weather a primaris psyker is harder (probably excell in different conditions really) sounds like they don't have it entirely their own way in the fights. Plus they seem to not have the benefits outside of fights that other people do doesn't sounds like it's Vindicare or nothing to me.

I would gamemaster a scenario where combat isn´t important for progression. Yeah, you shoot him, he drops dead. So What ?

Ikkaan said:

You see I've had this issue before, but what you learn is 2 things, First, its not just the assassin that loves a little combat here and there, everyone does. Playing a no-combat game is fun for all of an hour, maybe two, but if you don't break up the investigation bits with other bits every now and then you kind of start to get a meh feeling.

Speak for yourself. I've had a non-combat campaign in another setting which was pretty fine.

If I wanted a game that involved rolling dice and solving a mystery on its own merit, I would play clue. But all kidding aside, investigating is fun, investigating where there is no fear of failure and no one that needs to be brought to justice? meh. But, to each their own I suppose.

Bombernoy said:

You can have a game with little to no combat and where combat would solve very little yet the stakes are life and death and a great many folks need to be brought to justice anyway. I do it all the time.

Face Eater said:

If the Primaris Psyker is aware of the Vindicare (which is entirely possible given his sky high Awareness/Divination powers) it really isn't much of a contest for reasons mentioned earlier. Otherwise, a Shield Breaker round or two _may_ do the trick depending on whether or not said Psyker is allowed to use Catch Projectiles in response (if he is, it's still game in the Psyker's favour), or Las/Plasma Heavy weapons fire while the Psyker does not have Flameshroud/Barrier up etc... But really, when it comes to this level of power, everyone is essentially a glass cannon easily shattered when caught by complete surprise, Vindicare, Psyker or otherwise.

Overall the Psyker is still the most broken career by far; his powers enable him to do nearly everything better than the specialists, from combat to investigation.

Graver said:

So you just restated what I stated? In all fairness though, I did word that really akward, but I'm running on no sleep. Even if combat isn't a prevalent(or even part of a scenario) it still needs that impending doom feel. I should have phrased that better, two hours of wandering around a city playing sherlock holmes is fun, two hours of playing watch the inquisitor roll fellowship, thats a little less fun.

Lasers said:

Is WP 90 possible, barring random WP enhancements like Hypnoindoctrination?

I arrive at 80 WP via the following:

20 Base + 20 Point Buy + 5 Living Nightmare + 5 Mind Cleansed + 20 Advances + 10 Ascendant Advances

Bombernoy said:

While I have yet to get the book, I can already tell that I'm going to probably ditch the fettered/push rules. I tried them in RT, and they worked well there but mostly because the powers were far and away less powerful then the DH powers. If psykers in Ascension get crazy power boosts in the form of more awesome power and crazy WPB, then they sure as hell don't need the safety-net of the push system, at least not in my book. Of course, i also like the idea of power at a cost and even felt the RT psyker system made psychic powers fell a bit too much like high-fantasy spell chucking as opposed to a terribly and frightful curse one has to live with.

In all honesty, this thread above all others is starting to fill me with a few apprehensions about Ascension... like there's mostly just a crazy amount of OTT numbers and math flying all around. Of course that just might be because this thread is focusing only on such aspects...

Bombernoy said:

Er... yup, I guess I did. In my defense, I was only two sips into my morning coffee. Sleepy forum posting all around and for the win there!

Lasers said:

25 Base (Void Born) +20 Point Buy +5 Dark Holder +5 Living Nightmare +20 Advances +5 (Transition Package?) +10 Ascendant Advances.

With both random enhancements, that'd be 96 WP, I believe?

Lasers said:

The transition package for the Vindicare provides a +5 to BS, WS, Agility and Willpower. A Darkholder (Void Born) gets a +5 to Willpower. Living Nightmare is a Psyker background; though and doesn't really fit in beyond the hypothetical.

Let's go Darkholder Assassin to Vindicare

Dark Holder (Void Born) Willpower is 30 (25 Void Born; +5 Darkholder).
2d10 Roll of 20.
Divination 71-74: "In the darkness..." +3
All Advances taken for +30
Transition "The Art of Death" +5

I'm hitting 88, and I can't really think of anything else that can get it any higher.

A Darkholder Psyker with Livng Nightmare going Primaris can eek out that last 5 Willpower for a maximum possible of 93; though the Transition package in that case is "Judged by your Peers."

-=Brother Praetus=-

You missed the possibility of +3 from the Sanctioned Psyker table.

@Brother Praetus

Um... people were calculating max psyker WP there...

Ah yes, Transition Packages. Primaris Psyker:

Origin, Dark Holder (Void Born): 30

Advances: 30

Transition Package, Judged by Your Peers: 5

Background, Living Nightmare: 5

Point Buy: 20

Total: 90

Note that if you go for a Psyker Inquisitor, you can have a non-random total of 95 due to Ritual Trial (and up to 98 when factoring in Divination).

Throw in the random bonuses (Hypnoindoctrination/Divination), and 96. Lol. Wow. So let's assume 90 and calc how devastating Force Barrage, as a 'mere' Major Power is now:

Average Power Roll of 86: 5.5 * 10 (Psy Rating) + 4 (Power Well 2 & Discipline Focus) + 9 * 3 (WP Bonus 8 & Unnatural Willpower 3x)

Threshold of 16 (due to Telekinetic Mastery).

86-16 = 70 / 5 = 14

(27+16) * (5.5+27) * .9 = 1257.75 Average Damage. Each bolt deals 32.5 Impact damage on average, and 38.7 bolts hit their target on average, out to a range of 270 meters. Wow. For each dice you Push this power, add another bolt for 29.25 more damage to the average total. On top of this, we can use Invocation for yet another 3 bolts.

If we're assuming an Inquisitor Psyker, multiply this damage by 1.055 repeating to 1327.625, and increase the average damage of each additional bolt to 30.87. Best. Power. Ever.

Ikkaan said:

I think you underestimate just how many ways an assassins bullet can solve a problem.

Unusualsuspect said:

Indeed. So I did. Oh well, that's what I get for not playing a Psyker; I forget about the Sanctioning table sometimes.

Cifer said:

And so was I. I merely preceded it with something else equally pertinent to the thread. Apologies if I seemed off topic.

BTW, a Darkholder Adept (weirdness ensues) with all the same advances and rolls could actually hit a 93 Willpower if they were going Sage and take the transition package "The Burden of Truth."

-=Brother Praetus=-

I dunno about any of the listed helping to take out any Temple Assassin as the Temple Assassin trait states:

"...Additionally, the Assassin may attempt to Dodge any attack, including attacks that are not normally eligible for a Dodge Test, such as massive explosions, a descending titan's foot, or an invisibly psychic attack."

The only way I can think of to really get one is to hit him more times than he has Dodges in a round - I have to question if even Feint would work. Considering that an Eversor Assassin is fully capable of taking on a Space Marine Tactical Squad in table top with a reasonable expectation of winning, it does kind of fit the fluff.

While it will certainly overbalance combat intensive games...there is a discussion in the campaign section actually about what type of game the players want to have. And certainly I would think by default...at the Throne Agent level you want to be playing a game more based on influence and subtle maneuvering. The Vindicaire does not do the influence thing very well (other than by removing the brainpan of certain individuals).

It does certainly open up the possibilities for a war story. Maybe end the entire war on Tranch single handed.