"...Additionally, the Assassin may attempt to Dodge any attack, including attacks that are not normally eligible for a Dodge Test, such as massive explosions, a descending titan's foot, or an invisibly psychic attack."

The only way I can think of to really get one is to hit him more times than he has Dodges in a round - I have to question if even Feint would work. Considering that an Eversor Assassin is fully capable of taking on a Space Marine Tactical Squad in table top with a reasonable expectation of winning, it does kind of fit the fluff.

Either too many attacks or Full Auto attacks with too many DoS.

fimarach said:

Like a Force Barrage that generates 43+ bolts on average, each doing 32.5 average damage, with 90 to 95% of them hitting? There is no way the Vindicare can dodge all of them. Then there's Divine Shot that can't be dodged ever, no not even then (specifically states in the text), and things that couldn't possibly be avoided because it directly impacts the Vindicare's mind or body; you cannot dodge a direct telepathic attack, not possible, and no sensible GM would ever agree to it.

Also I made a typo; Invocation with 27 Willpower Bonus results in 5 more bolts, not 3.

It's now official: DH Ascension matches the idiotic levels of munchkinism seen in the likes of Epic Level D&D and Rifts.

I had a feeling the whole thing was a bad idea...

Atheosis said:

Based on what exactly?

That's surely a player issue rather than an issue with the system itself.

Lasers said:

There are rules for a point buy??? Where?

Valadrim said:

If you like, we can assume an average roll of 11, and it wouldn't make any appreciable difference.

Damnit, I don´t even have to book yet and I´m disgusted as almost everyone is pointing "system weaknesses" of the new rules. Crap this isn´t competitive game, its emperordamnit ROLE PLAYING GAME! Even with rest of Dark Heresy books you can make uberkilly characters but that´s not frakking point. If somebody want to powergame and to break the system he will. But those who want to use new opportunities of roleplaying servants of the Inquisition, they won´t. Sorry for harsh language but with all that whining and mathhammering I almost mistake this forums for Warseer...

To put it clear: I´m looking forward for Inquisitor ordering Exterminatus, Primaris psyker incinerating hundreds of heretics at once, Stormtrooper charging pissed-off unbound daemonhost with bare hands and Vindicare rap...ehm shooting Eldar Farseer through head. Still I´m definitely more enthusiastic about new fluff, ability to play political game and to pursue personal investigations and not just chasing errands. So, could anybody closely describe this aspects of the book?

Why not just two assassins on him to him him tied up? Sounds fair to me.

I'm looking forward to playing me a Vindicare

Gone all day and I come back to a page or so of new post, esh. Oh well, at least it looks like this forum has been helpful in the respect that it showed people what could potentially happen if a GM let it.
Now to address the post I feel need to be addressed. First off Torog: If you didn't want to read combat min-max theory crafting(that I originally posted more as a joke then as serious, though it quickly became useful) then the very first post, or even the title should have been a clue this was not the place for you. I mean, honestly, it says how to win at combat forever, what exactly where you really expecting? If it said how to win at influence forever I would understand your rant much more, but it didn't. Also, the influence aspect has the potential to play a huge role, the fluff is fluffy, and you can pretty much do whatever your inquisitor darn well pleases. Hope that answers your question or at least gives you hope.
To Laser: We moved on, we now know what a psyker can do to kill the assassin. And please stop talking about forcebolt, as I've said before it does not benefit from full auto, and so requires only one dodge to negate all damage. However I was tired when I mentioned that, so it may not have been worded well.
And in general, it has now been stated that a Pysker, certian closed confine attaks(such as a flame attack in a small windowless room), and full auto, will kill the Vindicare. If you come up with new ways, let us know. It has also been mentioned that an assassin is as much a political tool as anything else. I may lack influence of the fellowship variety, but lets not forget the stated purpose of the Vindicare, they are the influence for those who can't be reasoned with.

SonofDorn said:

SonofDorn said:

That was supposed to be "Why not just have two assassins on him to keep him tied up? Sounds fair to me."

That last post made me look like I was stoned out of my gourd.

Bombernoy said:

Nope. I'm aware you tried to make that point, but it is entirely incorrect; one Dodge does not suffice for Force Barrage and like powers, because each bolt/projectile is directed separately, applies to Toughness/Armour separately, and must thus be dodged as implied (and outright stated with respect to powers specifically identified as shooting attacks) by the rules on Page 126. You're more than welcome to speak to Sam to get an official ruling, but I am about 99.99% certain this is the case, and that he will not disagree with this assessment (actually nevermind, I've saved you the trouble, and will post the response). The same principle applies with Hurl, Tempest, Lightning Arc, Bio Lightning, and Soul Killer; the Overbleed creates far too many projectiles/bolts/instances for the Vindicare to Dodge.

Furthermore anything to do with Opposed Willpower vs X Attribute is essentially a win, particularly if it the Psyker's Tests are enhanced by Overbleed (which essentially means the Vindicare has no chance to resist). Blood Boil (the Biomancy power) is a specific example. Blood Boil, the Ascended Power is another if the Psyker goes first which he surely will. Dominate/Zone of Compulsion is another; you cannot Dodge these short of an insensible GM. Then there's Purgatus (again due to massive Overbleed, the Vindicare has no chance),

Divine Shot with a Heavy Weapon as stated before is essentially an automatic win; it cannot be dodged or miss in any way.

I'll be sure to post any more I come up with; guess I should check out Sorcery next.

Lasers said:

So, on page 126 when it says certain ASCENDED powers count as shots you mean it meant all powers? Because as read, barrage is still outside of being a full auto attack.Ultimately this will be up to the GM. Though, honestly, most GMs I know removed psykers from games because of how broken they can become in ascension. Removing perils and giving them unnatural was a terrible sort of mistake. Granted it takes a while to get that point, and no time should the warp be a free toy.

As a matter of fact, I would say the initial question I had has been layed to rest, no, the Vindicare is not even close to being over powered when you consider his flaws(no influence) and the fact that psykers are running around force barraging for hundreds of damage while being untouchable and never having to worry about warp anymore, and still being able to succeed where the Vindicare fails, or where anyone else fails for that matter.

Bombernoy said:

Not merely hundreds, but well over a thousand. What's really bad about Force Barrage is that it isn't even an Ascended power, yet is easily and by far the single strongest power in the game in terms of raw offensive prowess, allowing you to kill multiple Greater Daemons simultaneously, and discreetly (Force Bolts are invisible) with plenty of damage output left to spare, and at ludicrous ranges matched only by heavy weaponry.

I just received a response from Ross Watson on the matter of how the Temple Assassin trait interacts with psychic powers. For the Vindicare, there is good news, and bad news (mostly bad news):

"Hello again! Force Barrage generates multiple bolts/projectiles, as does Lightning Arc, Bio-lightning and Soul Killer. When interacting with the Temple Assassin trait from Ascension that permits these powers to be dodged when they otherwise could not, must each separate bolt/projectile be dodged, does the Dodge skill interact with these powers in a way similar to Full Auto (each degree of success on the Dodge Test negating a hit), or does one successful Dodge regardless of degrees of success negate all hits/projectiles?

Also, is it possible for someone with the Temple Assassin trait to dodge a shot enhanced by the Divine Shot shot power?"

The response:

"Hello there!

In the case of psychic powers that generate multiple bolts, the Temple Assassin dodges these like full-auto fire.

It is possible for a Temple Assassin to dodge a shot enhanced by Divine Shot."

So, Blank Vindicares are slightly more difficult to kill than anticipated (I now need to overwhelm them with telekinetically tossed crap via Lift/Tempest instead of using Divine Shot), and regular Vindicares are confirmed as being effortless to deal with; they too must bow before the awesome might of Force Barrage.

Lasers said:

I believe I was the one who originally broached the Blank/Null/Untouchable (so many terms for the same thing) Vindicare idea. I am also pretty certain that I mentioned that no such being should likely ever come to be. The Culexus Temple trains the Untouchables selected to join the Officio Assassinorum. I suppose there could be an exception here or there, as it has been said somewhere that there are (very, very rarely) males who prove to be compatible with the Callidus training.

-=Brother Praetus=-