Is it just me, or is Vindicare a tad too powerful. They have an omg win button they get for free(Temple Assassin, I can dodge 15 times), one of the best ascending packages(Seriously, bonuses out the wazoo for very little penalty), they start off with the best ranged weapons in the Ascension handbook( at this rank and built to use ranged, my exitus pistol rarely ever gives me less then 3 degrees of success on semi-auto). There bullets give a penalty to be dodged, they can resist mind control or get sick bonuses to ws/bs, they get unnatural almost everything(at final rank even speed), and special armor and gear that only adds to the horrendous ability they have to dodge, which again I can dodge 15 times.... FIFTEEN! That being said they have almost no influence talents, so most of the time I sit around coming up with brilliant ideas for other people to enact, or go under cover and silently listen in on things I'm not supposed to overhear. I also lack a little in the armor department. But when it comes time for combat, FIFTEEN! Just seems that maybe they could tone them down just a little.

Isn't that what the 'Feint' action is for?

Hmm... a truly Ascended Psyker with Presence Sense so you can find the Assassin and a ton of area of effect powers that ignore TB and Armour...

Or the Inquisitor with a high Influence that calls in a small, one-shot orbital strike! "I say we take off, and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."!

If used properly, all of the Ascended character types can directly or indirectly be a force of reckoning.

-Cynr

Soo, loosing some characteristics and a FATE POINT is very little?

Also, a good feint or AutoFire burst can still cause mass bad to the Vinicare

Psykers are de facto broken though, and have always been since their inception; I don't think their ability to destroy a Vindicare in combat is an appreciable argument that the latter is not imbal .

Cynr said:

The funny thing is, nuking the sight from orbit is the only way to be sure. Go ahead and AOE as a pysker, if you read the Temple Assassin trait, for the most part, the assassin will dodge it. Though I was also referring to already in combat, so really, even the inquisitor can't nuke me unless he's willing to go out himself.

Yeah, but Feint works only in close combat, so first of all you have to get to that Vindicare shooting at you with his pistol(s), running like hell with Hip Shooting and his high speed. It's not easy to even charge, not talking about using Feint. Moreover, you have to pass Opposing WS test which is not so easy either. And, loosing an action for Feint when being shot with Exitus Pistol - that's just suicide.

And using heavy weapon on full-auto burst - that one is good. Some assault cannon or autocannon should ruin Vindicare's day. He's not immortal, remember.

Full auto burst does stand a chance, especially since I know its possible to get 100 bs on a shot. At that point its down to who has more degrees of success (My dodge will be at 100 soon, and im going to assume they are using a weapon that has reliable or best quality). And to me the loss of a faint point, some fellowship, and some int, along with some Insanity was nothing compared to +5 to ws, +5 bs, +5 agility, and +5 willpower. Also, I had 4 faint points upon ascending, I had gained one earlier, and only ever really needed to use them to combat IP or CP gains.

"Inquisitor Skane has requested that you wear this coll... er, necklace whilst in his service."

I'm sure there are plenty of ways to take out a Vindicare; or for that matter an Eversor (realize ALL Temple Assassins seem to get that trait). Didn't the old stats for the various assassins in the Codex Assassin give them all an Invulnerable Save? I can't remember for sure, and my copy disappeared; possibly when one of my ex-roommates moved out. But their extra reactions for dodge and parry seems about right, honestly.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Uh, its a Vindicare assassin...
If it did anything other than OMGWTFPWN it would be a severe disappointment. Also, don't overlook the lack of influence, if you're looking at Class Vs. Class, then the Influential character doesn’t send one guy with an assault cannon or whatever he says:
“I’ve got a rogue temple assassin, send me two more to kill it.”
Or
“I’ve got a rogue temple assassin, send me more space marines”
Or
“dear entire population of hive world, I need this guy dead, whoever brings me his head is now the governor” I doubt even a temple assassin could survive being attacked by 25 billion people.
But as you point out if you’re in combat with the assassin, you’re as good as dead. Which, imo, is wholly appropriate.

A quotation straight form Codex: Witch Hunters concerning Assassin's Invulnerable Saves:

"Assassins are preternaturally agile, able to dart aside from incoming blows, so their saving throw is Invulnerable."

So yes - their agility and capabilities to dodge are unnatural in every sense.

I know there are ways to kill him and such, its just that sometimes in combat you hit that "I'm so epic that this is no longer fun or epic feeling." I fought an evesor already, it was possibly the most boring thing I have ever done in my life. It was dodges on both sides, with the final blow on the evesor coming from a storm trooper and a full auto burst(Which seems to be the best in combat way to go about killing those with the temple assassin trait.)

Agmar_Strick said:

Yep, different (sword?) strokes for different folks. I think each of the character types plays a significant role. My character has already been taking Peer Talents in preparation for others to do his dirty work when possible. After the release of RT and talking to Ross at GenCon, I was pretty sure that Influence would be the next big thing. . . and there is even a Talent for Influence with Space Marines!

I just think it is funny that my current group's sniper-style assassin and psyker seem to always one-up each other. The best kill-booster is the psyker's ability to roll high and gain a Fear (4); talk about mass hysteria with crowds!

Oh, and they can dodge certain "undodgeable" things at GM's discretion... I see Holocaust as the ultimate trump, destroying the Material and Immaterium alike.

-Cynr

Cynr said:

I don't know, I kinda like being an OMGWTFFACEMELTER, so to speak. I'm sure the other classes have things that make them awesome, too.

Blood boil. That would be the easiest to use, lowest risk way of killing a Temple assassin in combat I think. Pretty sure you can't dodge that.

Bombernoy said:

Possibly yes, possibly no. No actual attack, per se. It's contested Will v. Tough; which both parties might have their respective traits Unnatural. Not a form of mind control... This might just do it, given good rolls on the part of the psyker. Provided, of course, that the target in question is not a blank.

-=Brother Praetus=-

But hey, makes a change from the usual Techpriests are unkillable argument.

And lets face it, it's always gonna be that change of a 96+ dodge roll so all in all vs the, nothing can roll high enough to damage me, tank it's fair.

Tech priest have always been killable really. And Maybe a roll of 94 would do it if your GM calls those botched rolls always. My GM calls them botched for the sake of guns and explosives only, anything else if you have a score of over 100, then you're just rolling for successes. On dodges when I cap 100, I will be rolling for successes.

Reilly said:

Unnaturally skilled, yes. 15+ Dodges (at 80-100% success if you're at least halfway as competent as you could be) is beyond ridiculous.

It breaks any semblance of gameplay balance and, to me at least, it breaks my suspension of disbelief when an assassin can, unaided, dodge an entire platoon's worth of firepower like Neo. At point-blank range. While readying a reaction to Boom! HEADSHOT! anyone near him.

I'm seriously considering giving this a miss. I don't really want to play a game where everyone is reduced to beating off over how many succeses they can pull off and leaping round doing superuberspecialsnowflakeawesomefullysickradicool stunts every two seconds. Not to mention who knows everything and everyone (seriously, I'm getting the impression every character will be forced to have Fel 30-50 and every single Peer/Good Rep talent in the game by the end of it, because I really can't see much else to do with ~30,000 XP). It would be even worse if one character simply dominated that regard. I'm cringing in anticipation at the thought of that Techpriest discussion from earlier paling in comparison to what an ascended assassin can do. That just gives me mental images of two people in an online diceless system trying to one-up each other about how many world-ending fireballs they can hurl.

Nor do I particularly want each and every encounter to revolve around insane world-ending horros from beyond the grave; because those things are not an everyday occurrence (just how often do you think you need to banish that Unique Tzeentchian daemon presented in the adversaries?).

Yeah, nah, I might just go back and run/play some lower-level stuff. It just seems to me like Ascension doesn't have much inherent longevity, at least not to me, because the stuff it deals with just doesn't seem as interesting or as well-developed as I'd like

Nor do I particularly want each and every encounter to revolve around insane world-ending horros from beyond the grave; because those things are not an everyday occurrence (just how often do you think you need to banish that Unique Tzeentchian daemon presented in the adversaries?).

That's kinda funny, because considering the fluff, I'd imagine that's exactly what Vindicare get to do.

I know there are ways to kill him and such, its just that sometimes in combat you hit that "I'm so epic that this is no longer fun or epic feeling." I fought an evesor already, it was possibly the most boring thing I have ever done in my life. It was dodges on both sides, with the final blow on the evesor coming from a storm trooper and a full auto burst(Which seems to be the best in combat way to go about killing those with the temple assassin trait.)

So you've just said it: They're killable, it just takes a different strategy - either massive area attacks (nearest non-affected square should be no less than 12 metres away) or Full Auto, preferably with the Storm quality.

Brother Praetus said:

Essentially, any psychic power that directly affects the Vindicare's body or mind (of which there are plenty) is an undodgeable, reliable, and easy method of killing him. Even if the Vindicare has Conditioning, which is not something they all have, nor something that applies to all mind affecting powers, the Psyker still likely possesses a considerable edge in the Opposed Willpower Tests.

Lasers said:

I direct you to the emphasized portion of my post. A blank/null/untouchable is the one rare exception. But, by and by, I personally wouldn't let such a character choose Vindicare. That would be Culexus Temple, after all. And if the write up for the Eversor is a hint, all temple assassins get the trait.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Yes, I'm not refuting that a Blank Vindicare would make things tougher for the Psyker, denying him the usual win buttons. Still, there is stuff like Precognition, Lift, Tempest, Barrier, Flameshroud, Warptime etc, etc. that either indirectly affect the Blank Vindicare, and/or enhance the Psyker in a way that makes him difficult if not impossible to kill/makes the Vindicare easy to kill. The bottom line: Vindicare versus Primaris Psyker is almost certainly a mismatch in the latter's decisive favour.

Also, all Assassins get the Conditioning Trait? Mustn't the Vindicare must choose between that, Killing Sprint, and Sacrificial Past?

Even without being blank the Vindicare still has a few things that can give him the upper-hand. One, if you are in any are where running is possible, a quick sprint will likely out range most of what you have, they can then shoot from a safe distance of your control or most other powers. Add to this the fact that I am more then likely higher on the turn order, and I have the upper hand now. On your turn you may activate one power, on mine, depending on your last turn, I will either load a turbo pen or shield breaker round and fire, no aim action needed. I will then move half my distance to keep outside of your range. On the turn after that I will fire either a regular round, or, if you barrier the shield breaker. At this point unless you have some insane number of wounds, I've probably killed or crippled you, I can then just keep firing away at you with the Exitus, or if you happen to have Telekinetics I can switch to a las. Inside, well if I don't kill/cripple with my first shot, then you have a pretty good chance of offing me. Also, the smart ones get conditioning. And to be clear, I'm not trying to put anyones ideas down, I'm theorycrafting, each time you present a thought, I try and come up with a counter idea. That way I don't find myself in a situation I can't handle in game. Already from this I've learned, don't fight in an enclosed space, and don't start a fight up close to anyone(of course, as a Vindicare that goes without saying, amiright?)