Dear lord, it's a game. Play it and have fun or don't.

6 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

o k

........?

The Phantom has 3 attack dice.

BuT MuH ImPeREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEiAlZZZ!1!!

That is what "rebel bias" is.

I'm not sure how much the ship design shows Rebel bias and how much it's just showing generic 1.0 issues, like the designers costing stuff by feeling and some things (like turrets and high HP) being way better than others in practice than other ls apparently equivalent ones (maneuverability and green dice).

Where I did feel at least some Rebel bias though is regarding the way FAQs were handled. Scum or Imperial list is dominating? Quick, to the nerfmobile! Rebel list is dominating? Business as usual.

6 minutes ago, FlyingAnchors said:

BuT MuH ImPeREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEiAlZZZ!1!!

That is what "rebel bias" is.

20 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

........?

The Phantom has 3 attack dice.

Maybe in 2.0. Just throwing it out there that it had 4.

45 minutes ago, PenguinBonaparte said:

Not saying it's not a good ability, but with the 2 crew slots and whatnot, it seems like you still have to base a list around him and I'm not sure it's worth that cost.

nothing wrong with mo mods

but if you want to squeeze the extra synergy, just gotta run it with things that normally don't focus

like things that generally want to TL instead (bombers)

As bad as Rebel bias is in the game (and I have to admit, you’ve got a point. Even if Scum has won the past several worlds events... but that’s a different complaint thread), it’s still not as bad as the rebel bias in the movies. Case and point:

12 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

I'm not sure how much the ship design shows Rebel bias and how much it's just showing generic 1.0 issues, like the designers costing stuff by feeling and some things (like turrets and high HP) being way better than others in practice than other ls apparently equivalent ones (maneuverability and green dice).

Where I did feel at least some Rebel bias though is regarding the way FAQs were handled. Scum or Imperial list is dominating? Quick, to the nerfmobile! Rebel list is dominating? Business as usual.

Biggs?

14 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

not this time:

17 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

I'm not sure how much the ship design shows Rebel bias and how much it's just showing generic 1.0 issues, like the designers costing stuff by feeling and some things (like turrets and high HP) being way better than others in practice than other ls apparently equivalent ones (maneuverability and green dice).

My issue with this, is that by the time the Punisher released, they were aware of the problems of turrets in general, and I fail to see how they could not factor in Miranda's ability in the price. Sure, the Falcon might have been a surprise to the devs in its effectiveness. Maybe it all added up little by little with Sabine, and TLT-s slipping through playtests...

But the difference is still so staggeringly large between these two ships that it is very difficult to believe they didn't know about it prior to release.

I definitely believe that in part, it was incompetence that caused this. But if the designers are so out of touch that in the half point of the first edition they didn't realize this big of a powerdifference, I doubt they could design this game...

To me it seems they were aware of the difference (at least partially), and they just didn't care, or worse yet, it was intentional.

That, or they are actual idiots.

2 hours ago, Bucknife said:

On the topic of pilot abilities; unfortunately for the empire, their arsenal doesn't really inspire a lot of cool abilities.

See, that's actually why I always thought it was really cool when a TIE pilot DOES manage to stand out. There's probably a lot of amazing pilots, but they have one slip up and they die. Then there'd be some rebels who weren't as good, but they slipped up and had shields and better craft in terms of survivability. Funny thing is, you see Imperial doctrine shift in response to what was previously not considered much of a threat. Things like the Defender are a reaction to rebel starfighters, and the Raider is built to deal with a previously ignored strength of the rebellion as well.

2 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

But empire? Oh man, the possibilities

Yeah, that's the big thing. It seems like Rebels fly better than before, but Imperials fly newer than before. All sorts of new space got opened up. Plus, Interceptors will feel like Interceptors, not just because of what they can do but because of what everyone and their brother suddenly can't.

51 minutes ago, Icelom said:

Biggs?

Yeah, that's kinda the point though. He was actually really tough to work around, and it took them what? Four years to address it? And I believe the prevailing point is that Rebel balance issues don't get speedy resolutions, but other factions get them immediately.

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

nothing wrong with mo mods

but if you want to squeeze the extra synergy, just gotta run it with things that normally don't focus

like things that generally want to TL instead (bombers)

But it's just for defense, so I guess if you want to keep a bomber alive by one more hp, but unlike the aces they're not the ones who really need that particular type of variance control.

5 minutes ago, PenguinBonaparte said:

But it's just for defense, so I guess if you want to keep a bomber alive by one more hp, but unlike the aces they're not the ones who really need that particular type of variance control.

It's for ordnance too !

26 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

It's for ordnance too !

Seems like it's only when a friendly ship is defending. I feel like a lot of the other crew would be much more useful on a support Shuttle, Reaper, or Decimator.

27 minutes ago, Icelom said:

Biggs?

Biggs got nerfed after how many years of designers acknowledging it was limiting design space for Rebels?

Rebel bias is very simply the subconscious idea lingering inside all imperial/first order x-wing miniature players head (and possibly also the three x-wing designers) that in the movies the Rebels/Resistance always wins over the Empire/First Order thus Rebel/Resistance lists as a whole MUST be better than Empire/First Order. This does not necessarily mean Rebel/Resistance ships are better but could also be that their synergy is better.

DEAR LORD that's a long walk for a short drink of water.

If anyone wants the TL;DR version, it's " @Commander Kaine needs a tinfoil hat"

18 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

DEAR LORD that's a long walk for a short drink of water.

If anyone wants the TL;DR version, it's " @Commander Kaine needs a tinfoil hat"

How many more of these threads do I have to expect where the correct counter examples are just casually dismissed without any explanation?

Quickdraw was not a problem and well designed? She was so good that two out of three squads used her, and the third was wrong. The Uwing was a better lambda? I guess that‘s why the uwing made it into top10 even after wave 14? Oh wait, the explanation is definitely that Rebels have no good crew and no possible synergy between ships, unlike imperials...

Member Scouts vs. Palp meta? Rebel bias my ***. Balance swings and the top is usually npe regardless of faction.

7 hours ago, Dengar5 said:

Rebel bias is Talonbane Cobra getting thrown in the gutter, stripped of I6 & given a commoners I5.

That specific change I have no issue with. Talonbane Cobra categorically did not deserve the heights of PS9 based on who he is . He's was an end-of-the very-first-level boss in Star Wars galaxies (putting him on a par with characters like Commander Alozen) who goes down like a punk in his one and only appearance in the entire Star Wars universe to what is essentially a Cartel Spacer in a heavy scyk.

Dengar, by comparison, is a Correllian (like Han Solo, Wedge Antilles and Soontir Fel, in fact) and his ability as a pilot is made much of in his tales of the bounty hunters appearances.

7 hours ago, Dengar5 said:

All this while Dash is lovingly given I5 while Bossk festers at I4

Whilst Dash Rendar and the Outrider were always essentially 'Not-Han-Solo on the Not-Millenium-Falcon' , he was narratively implied to be is a really, really good pilot.

More importantly, Dash should match Maarek Stele (i5), Keyan Farlander (not seen yet if he still exists), and Nym (I5), because all of them are 'you, the player' characters in Star Wars dogfighting games.

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

How many more of these threads do I have to expect where the correct counter examples are just casually dismissed without any explanation?

Quickdraw was not a problem and well designed? She was so good that two out of three squads used her, and the third was wrong. The Uwing was a better lambda? I guess that‘s why the uwing made it into top10 even after wave 14? Oh wait, the explanation is definitely that Rebels have no good crew and no possible synergy between ships, unlike imperials...

What can the Lambda do, that the U-wing can't?

Quickdraw... what was wrong with Quickdraw?

She was powerful, for sure. She provided interesting options, but you could outplay her, easily. That dial ain't great, unless she is willing to get stressed... If she does, she will lose out on her mods, and limits her movement even further. So if you are good, you can outfly her so she doesn't get a shot, or gets an unmodded one.

Compare her to Dengar aka The problem ship, who has a stronger ability, a way better dial, and a turret weapon, so no matter what you do, he will get a shot in. Quickdraw, is in fact, a balanced version of Dengar. What Dengar should have been. Limited.

I played with and against SF-s a lot. They are a ticking bomb to be sure, but you can destroy quickdraw without getting damaged.

She was in every other imperial squad... because what's the alternative? There weren't a lot.

Interceptors, Bombers, Fighters, Punishers, Aggressors, FO-s, Upsillons, Firesprays, Lambdas weren't played a lot.

Decimator, Gunboat, Vader, Silencer, SF, Defender. In a high ps meta, so naturally, Quickdraw as one of the highest native PS pilots was a given choice.

What do you think the actual design problem with Quickdraw is? She is certainly isn't too cheap. Her ability is great, but fair and limited. Her dial is okay. Her stats are lacking, she needs a crutch in LWF. Her actions are average. Her upgrade bar is good. Her title ability allows her for a limited double tap, which is nice, but a bit finicky to pull off.

Compared to Dengar: Is ridiculously cheap for that ship
His ability is Great, but theoretically has counterplay
His dial is bonkers.
His stats are okay.
His actions a great for a large ship.
His upgrade bar is excellent.
He doesn't have a title ability, but a white sloop could be considered as such.

Yeah. Being strong, or being played a lot, is not the same as being broken. Take her harpoons away and she is perfect. But then the problem isn't really Quickdraw, now is it?

Now... To suggest that these two ships are even remotely close to each other in terms of design quality, is ridiculous. Obviously, Dengar is as broken as they can get, but the SF has several exploitable weaknesses. It is not a badly designed, or problematic ship. It is a good ship.

15 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

What can the Lambda do, that the U-wing can't?

Pretty much "equip imperial only crew". In 1.0, at least, Whilst Rebels had great crew, the only 'global board effect' crew they had was Sabine - and whilst (don't get me wrong here) she was/is hideously powerful, she's only a single crew and can go in any spare crew slot - on a non-havoc Scurrg, a K-wing, a cheap sheathiepede, whatever.

There was no 5+ point, 2-crew slot equivalent of Palpatine or Jabba in the rebel ranks that you'd ever want to take a whole crew-transport ship just to give them a place to stand. Hence, the U-wing as a troop transport had no real function.

With Saw making it a pretty decent gunship and squad-booster, it might actually see some use, but as a generic transport, the problem is the crew options, not the chassis.

15 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

Quickdraw... what was wrong with Quickdraw?

She was powerful, for sure. She provided interesting options, but you could outplay her, easily. That dial ain't great, unless she is willing to get stressed... If she does, she will lose out on her mods, and limits her movement even further. So if you are good, you can outfly her so she doesn't get a shot, or gets an unmodded one.  

Absolutely nothing. The TIe/sf is, in my opinion a pretty darn perfectly balanced ship:

• Quickdraw is powerful enough to have a place at the top tables, but not so powerful people can't figure out a way to deal with her.
• She gets free attacks but unlike Dengar only a limited number of them and only when she's actually hit by attacks, not just shot at. It's rare you don't get her ability to trigger at least once in a game, but it's also quite common to only get it once against a decent player.
• She's flexible enough to be built several different ways - from FCS/LWF/Expertise as a more or less standard 'heavy fighter' to an FCS/GC/Missile boat to a sort-of-support-ship with a targeting syncrhoniser.
• You actually have to make hard choices when equipping her, because, for example, Lightweight Frame and Guidance Chips sit in the same slot.
• Backdraft - the 'other pilot' is still pretty darn snazzy too, especially with the First Order's current penchant for critical-triggered effects (Harpoons and I'll Show You The Dark Side).

I'm not a massive fan (see previous argument about Talonbane) of her being PS9, but pre-TLJ you didn't have a lot of options for first order pilots, and if one assumes Quickdraw is in TLJ who most people assume she is, then (a) she's Kylo's wingman and hence should be someone pretty special and (b) officially gets the killshot on the Raddus' bridge, so can claim actually achieving something significant on-screen, which not many non-skywalker imperial or first order pilots can...