2 minutes ago, Ixidor said:

Why wouldn't you also pick up the lock, then? He could easily have the lock from a previous turn as well, or he'd take it on this turn to use on a upcoming one.

I was responding to someone claiming Vader could still use his ability to get a target lock when he is blocked.

Chained quotes would clear so much up on these forums.

So they're both blocked and get one shot off? I feel like Vader's squad still gets out better (even though I think Icelom's argument isn't that Luke is too good, it's that he's too boring and uninteresting).

From what we've seen of crew so far, Han doesn't get as many fancy defensive options (we don't know for sure if C-3PO and R2-D2 crew have abilities anything close to what they were before but I imagine they are diminished if they are even close to similar). Han currently can only guarantee one evade result one time he defends and has a decent chance of 1 evade result each other time (with title re-rolling).

Who wins that fight may depend on how many wing men each can bring and how significant those wing men are. If Vader can bring squints and Han can only bring z95s, that's a different scenario, I'd say.

33 minutes ago, Icelom said:

or... a 12 point z-95 blocks Vader stopping him from any actions or getting a shot on anyone.
a 12 point tie fighter blocks the yt-1300 it still moves its turret and fires on anything it wants

That sound about right doesn't it?

It's not about luke being overpowered how can you people not read that when I say it? it's about him having no counterplay. I don't care if luke gunner is so expensive that he sucks, I care that he is just a dumb card that has no counterplay and adds nothing of value to the game.

If blocked Vader can still use the Force.

So all things being equal (both are blocked);

The YT gets a 3 dice attack (no mods)

Vader gets a 3 dice defence (modded)

Moreover to ‘actually block Vader’ and set this situation up requires player skill (which some have commented isn’t needed if you have Luke Gunner).

Its worth remembering that we are talking about super rare Force weilders here. Luke isn’t your ‘run of the mill’ gunner upgrade - this is something special, powerful and unique.

Comparing Luke and Vader here we can quickly see they’re roughly on a par, both very powerful Force users (who can no doubt be buffed further with Force upgrade cards). So yeah, their abilities are going to be a bit out of the park.

Falcon is likely going priced to be on a two-ship list anyways, so having Luke and an extra attack on the turn won't be game breaking.

After some reflection. I think Fickle is right that Luke invalidates a core mechanic that FFG wanted to promote so hard with 2.0 release, i.e. the necessity to actually fly your ship appropriately to get shots at people.

There is no point in denying that Luke Gunner overrides this core mechanic, which, for me is a really bad start into the new edition in the best case.

That’s also why this « training weels » argument is nonsense. You want to learn X-Wing, where the proper maneuvering of your ship is supposd to be the most important win factor by taking Luke to ignore the most basic mechanic? Well that makes no sense...

But then looking at it again, i think that for the competitive player it might not matter. I think that there might be more powerful options than the Falcon from the get-go. Lists that played well, will just, at some point of the match, catch the Falcon, tank the one shot per turn and wipe it out in one ir two rounds of concentrated fire. This Wasn’t always possible in 1.0, but the Falcon’s damage mitigation has gone down significantly too, and this might be the deciding factor.

So, Luke Gunner is probably a badly designed card, but it might be largely inconsequential for the meta...

If Luke is priced at a certain cost, then choosing not to take him might mean putting an additional significant ship into your list.

10 minutes ago, ForceM said:

That’s also why this « training weels » argument is nonsense. You want to learn X-Wing, where the proper maneuvering of your ship is supposd to be the most important win factor by taking Luke to ignore the most basic mechanic? Well that makes no sense...

Learning a game in increments is fine, there's nothing wrong with taking each thing in turn.

But the reason why the training wheels thing doesn't work for Luke is that being able to boost and turn your arc with full knowledge is going to scale perfectly well with skill.

2 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

Learning a game in increments is fine, there's nothing wrong with taking each thing in turn.

But the reason why the training wheels thing doesn't work for Luke is that being able to boost and turn your arc with full knowledge is going to scale perfectly well with skill.

That's on Han, not Luke.

6 minutes ago, ForceM said:

After some reflection. I think Fickle is right that Luke invalidates a core mechanic that FFG wanted to promote so hard with 2.0 release, i.e. the necessity to actually fly your ship appropriately to get shots at people.

Luke Gunner does override this core mechanic. But in 1.0 it was a mechanic that applied to a large range of ships. To put it another way you had an extremely high chance in 1.0 of meeting “Luke Gunner” from any faction in the game on almost any platform.

That isn’t the case now.

If Luke is high cost then it’s likely he’ll only appear on a couple of ships, the YT-1300 (rebel version, so not with Rey), possibly the YT-2400. Outliers are the Y Wing, HWK and K Wing (arguably less useful).

& Maybe that’s the Falcons ‘thing’. It’s defining attribute. But does that define the meta going forward? That’s really hard to judge at this stage. My guess is that unless the Falcon shows itself to be wildly popular you chances of meeting one in a competition will be relatively low.

1 hour ago, Icelom said:

it's about him having no counterplay.

That you know of. Lots of things have yet to be revealed. New rules have yet to be revealed. new force abilities have yet to be revealed, new timing charts and trigger windows. Heck even Luke Gunner has yet to be officially revealed. Maybe we should wait until we know more.

The ultimate balance will be the point cost - the cost of Luke + a YV-1300 will be so high that the opponent, if he/she chooses to take more ships, will kill the YV-1300 faster than a single expensive ship.

3 Fangs vs. YV-1300 = not good for the Rebellion

Anyone remember the Dark Days?

Back when we were all starving for news and hoping to see a preview for Saw's Renegades and the X-wing fix..... But no matter how often we refreshed the FFG home page... There was nothing.

Back when these forums were stalked by heartless trolls who ate newbies for breakfast and anything that moved.

Back when the topics were nothing but, "X number of days with no new Xwing content".

How dare there be hope for a game that we love.

How dare thee. have. hope.

32 minutes ago, Tam Palso said:

& Maybe that’s the Falcons ‘thing’. It’s defining attribute. But does that define the meta going forward? That’s really hard to judge at this stage. My guess is that unless the Falcon shows itself to be wildly popular you chances of meeting one in a competition will be relatively low.

The falcon's "thing" is being the only large base ship with boost (allegedly)

After the culling of 1.0 EU, no other large ship remains with it unless it got shifted over to medium (good ol boba). Even the yt2400 can only roll instead

The falcon also gets a unique title that makes it better at shrugging off multiple attacks than most 1/0 agi ships

Gunner Luke is not its thing nor does it need to be, especially when it's shared across every rebel thing with a gunner slot

It's just a bad idea that could've been worse had it deseminated across the entire game rather than just one faction, like a quarantined epidemic

That's not "good", that's "not as bad as it could have been"

Which imo isn't good enough

5 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

The falcon's "thing" is being the only large base ship with boost (allegedly)

But but large base boost is absolute cancer, especially at highest initiative. He can bid 10pt and then has no counterplay!!!

Why is large base boost defining, but an actual PWT gamebreaking instead of defining?

Why do you get to decide instead of FFG?

4 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

But but large base boost is absolute cancer, especially at highest initiative. He can bid 10pt and then has no counterplay!!!

Why is large base boost defining, but an actual PWT gamebreaking instead of defining?

Why do you get to decide instead of FFG?

I didn't get to decide

FFG decided to undo "actual PWTs" and make the only large base ship boost as a red action

then, for some reason, FFG also undid all that hard work on just the falcon

methinks someone at FFG isn't entirely on the ball

Just now, ficklegreendice said:

I didn't get to decide

FFG decided to undo "actual PWTs" and make the only large base ship boost as a red action

then, for some reason, FFG also undid all that hard work on just the falcon

methinks FFG isn't taking its meds

But that‘s just not true.

FFG decided to undo actual PWTs with one exception, and remove all large base boost with one exception.

You have to demonstrate why they are different, you can‘t just assert as much.

2 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

I didn't get to decide

FFG decided to undo "actual PWTs" and make the only large base ship boost as a red action

then, for some reason, FFG also undid all that hard work on just the falcon

methinks someone at FFG isn't entirely on the ball

The design team answers to a rat soo...

3 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

But that‘s just not true.

FFG decided to undo actual PWTs with one exception, and remove all large base boost with one exception.

You have to demonstrate why they are different, you can‘t just assert as much.

I'm not asserting diddly, I'm just paraphrasing the 2.0 faq

"X-Wing Second Edition makes several changes that refine the core mechanics used by the first edition, cleaning up interactions and refocusing the game on the physical act of flying starships. Some of the more noticeable changes include red actions that induce stress, linked actions on ship cards, the introduction of the Force, upgrades with a limited number of “charges,” changes to turrets, and the ability to repair damage on your ships." -https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/x-wing-second-edition/#/faq-section

3 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

I'm not asserting diddly, I'm just paraphrasing the 2.0 faq

"X-Wing Second Edition makes several changes that refine the core mechanics used by the first edition, cleaning up interactions and refocusing the game on the physical act of flying starships. Some of the more noticeable changes include red actions that induce stress, linked actions on ship cards, the introduction of the Force, upgrades with a limited number of “charges,” changes to turrets, and the ability to repair damage on your ships." -https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/x-wing-second-edition/#/faq-section

They dont mention medium bases at all, so it's clearly not a complete list.

1 minute ago, Rakaydos said:

They dont mention medium bases at all, so it's clearly not a complete list.

"Some of the more noticable changes" != This is a complete list

But apparently , changes to turrets WERE notable and listed as an example of "cleaning up interactions and refocusing the game on the physical activity of flying starships"

According not just to common sense of being able to outmanuever turrets, but according to developers themselves

2 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

"Some of the more noticable changes" != This is a complete list

But apparently , changes to turrets WERE notable and listed as an example of "cleaning up interactions and refocusing the game on the physical activity of flying starships"

According not just to common sense of being able to outmanuever turrets, but according to developers themselves

Not every ship can repair damage, either, even though that's also on the list.

8 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

Not every ship can repair damage, either, even though that's also on the list.

So? Not every ship is a turret?

Now, I'd be remise saying that turrets were the ONLY problem with 1.0, but they were definitely a "notable" problem as was unlimited (powah) Regen and other stacked, guaranteed defenses. In fact, the single most notorious ship had both!

Now we can try to squirm all we like, fact remains the developers themselves addressed turrets in the FAQ AND in their design of 2.0. it was one of the many changes I wholeheartedly appreciated, alongside action-chaining and charge limits to powerful upgrades

But short of somehow editing out the FAQ, there is no avoiding that fact the 1.0 turrets were addressed by 2.0. the developers themselves said so

I'm afraid this is no longer simply my opinion

And yet you seem unhappy with one specific exception the designers put in, and not any of the others.

13 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

And yet you seem unhappy with one specific exception the designers put in, and not any of the others.

Because it is the only exception, as it is the only thing that remained unchanged

Even defender evade got nerfed so that they can no longer evade beyond their dice total nor change additional blanks to evades (palp)

Other action independent dice mods got sharply restricted to arcs, emphasizing your ability to manuever rather than your ability to staple upgrade cards on your ship

Non-interceptors became far inferior arcdodgers than they used to be, interceptors can't soontir stack their way to damage immunity

2.0 is a massive and awesome overhaul that looks very promising. I've made threads on why

...only gunner Luke results in a ship that is no less pwt than in 1.0

1 hour ago, Tam Palso said:

Luke Gunner does override this core mechanic. But in 1.0 it was a mechanic that applied to a large range of ships. To put it another way you had an extremely high chance in 1.0 of meeting “Luke Gunner” from any faction in the game on almost any platform.

That isn’t the case now.

If Luke is high cost then it’s likely he’ll only appear on a couple of ships, the YT-1300 (rebel version, so not with Rey), possibly the YT-2400. Outliers are the Y Wing, HWK and K Wing (arguably less useful).

& Maybe that’s the Falcons ‘thing’. It’s defining attribute. But does that define the meta going forward? That’s really hard to judge at this stage. My guess is that unless the Falcon shows itself to be wildly popular you chances of meeting one in a competition will be relatively low.

As i said, it might be inconsequential for the meta. That still doesn’t make it a good decision to release it just after saying you want to make flying the ships the most important thing in the game.