2 minutes ago, Icelom said:

You mean like every other ship in the game? every scum ship, every imperial ship, every none turret ship, every none gunner seat turret ship?

Your argument is that for certain ships their weakness should be removed?

As it stands (this is still all kind of open as we don't have 2.0 released) i would rather face 1.0 yt-2400's (with there mods) with interceptors or a-wings then I would 2.0 yt-2400's with luke gunner because in 1.0 I can double token stack and have auto thrusters to help deal with the fact I cant dodge them. In 2.0 I will have 1 mod and no 1.0 autothrusters.... 2.0 removed almost all the turret defenses because turrets were removed, or so we thought.

YT-2400 will not have the Gunner slot, so your argument is moot..

Just now, player44455 said:

YT-2400 will not have the Gunner slot, so your argument is moot..

sorry i meant the yt-1300 was a mistake.

1 minute ago, player44455 said:

YT-2400 will not have the Gunner slot, so your argument is moot..

Also news to me, its going to be a strong ship without access to the gunner seat so i think that's ok.

6 minutes ago, Icelom said:

sorry i meant the yt-1300 was a mistake.

OK. But 3 ATK is way less threatening than 4.

Anyways I'm quite curious how the arc dodgers will end up like in 2.0.

Because you can't rely on 100% arc dodging all the time. Sometimes you just need to tank the shot, and their ability to do that was seriously nerfed.

But as an arc dodger player I would be less afraid of a single 3 die attack from Han/Luke, than about arc dodging 5 X-wings..

I guess Fel look like he should be playable, but I can't really see myself using the Inquisitor, unless he's super cheap.

On the Scum side Fenn Rau looks great, and so does the Starviper (Guri!), but they are not pure arc dodgers anyway.

My guess is that at least on the release of 2.0, pure arc dodging aces will not really be a viable strategy.

But again, not because of Luke, but because of generally reduced defensive capabilities, and increased efficiency of generics / jousters.

23 minutes ago, player44455 said:

YT-2400 will not have the Gunner slot, so your argument is moot..

Was that ever confirmed, or is it just a blatantly obvous smart move, like Zuckuss with Force Sence?

1 minute ago, Rakaydos said:

Was that ever confirmed, or is it just a blatantly obvous smart move, like Zuckuss with Force Sence?

Not confirmed, but FFG would be CRAZY to put a gunner upgrade on a 4 die ship.

And contrary to popular belief, FFG designers are not crazy.

I think the whole point of the gunner upgrade slot was to differentiate the most powerful upgrade cards from the generic crew slot.

7 minutes ago, player44455 said:

OK. But 3 ATK is way less threatening than 4.

Anyways I'm quite curious how the arc dodgers will end up like in 2.0.

Because you can't rely on 100% arc dodging all the time. Sometimes you just need to tank the shot, and their ability to do that was seriously nerfed.

But as an arc dodger player I would be less afraid of a single 3 die attack from Han/Luke, than about arc dodging 5 X-wings..

I guess Fel look like he should be playable, but I can't really see myself using the Inquisitor, unless he's super cheap.

On the Scum side Fenn Rau looks great, and so does the Starviper (Guri!), but they are not pure arc dodgers anyway.

My guess is that at least on the release of 2.0, pure arc dodging aces will not really be a viable strategy.

But again, not because of Luke, but because of generally reduced defensive capabilities, and increased efficiency of generics / jousters.

I think there plan is to go back to 4x x-wings as max but I don't have proof of that.

I do agree with you a bit, will be very curious how a full x-wing list does vs a full interceptor list.

Starvipers are going to be arc dodging machines in 2.0, the banked barrel roll is one of the most amazing arc dodging features in the game, there linked actions to focus are very strong off there repositioning moves and the added blues to there dials make it so they can actually clear that stress unlike in 1.0 where taking ptl was either useless or a death sentence.

What I might need to clarify, is in 1.0 I don't actually like turret ships, I find them inefficient and easy to kill. I cant win with big PWT and I feel like I cant lose to them (I do on occasion). My problem is not that I think bringing back a 360 turret to 2.0 is overpowered, my problem with it is I feel it breaks the game design and effects the meta in a negative way then I would like and that I thought the devs were aiming for. I don't think luke gunner is going to be overpowered, what I don't like is what he forces the meta into. In 1.0 I don't run low PS arc dodgers there is no point, but in 2.0 there is a chance for them if you fly them well, but can you really count on that if you have a chance at running into a ship that has no counterplay for your ships? any other turret in 2.0 I can force the turret move to reduce mods or I can block to stop the turret move and so on. I can actually out fly my opponent with low initiative ships if I am good enough but not luke gunner.

For me x-wing is hope, someone tosses 4 modded dice at my ship with 1 evade dice no mods and 1hp left i have a chance! i have hope until the dice go down. In 2.0 i can take an initiative 1 arc dodger and have hope that i can totally outguess my opponents initiative 6 ship, but I have none of that hope against luke gunner, it does not matter what i do with my ship.

Maybe this all comes down to what people enjoy in x-wing and what they were excited about in 2.0 and maybe I just can't get everything I want. Not everyone can.

14 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

Luke is a terrible card with a horrible design. We can only hope the English to Polish translation was ****** up, as as he is revealed he is a terrible design. I was looking forward to seeing Interceptors again, but you can't field them against Luke.

I think Interceptors are likely going to be quite strong against this. Some of the stuff we've been told seems to indicate that squints will be cheap enough to fit more into a list with reasonable upgrades. Being conservative and juts doubling point costs form 1st without taking into account any possible changes to cost for changes to the ship, 4 royal guards with Outmaneuver might be 200 points on the nose. The squint list likely still has the higher skill floor but flown correctly, you're getting 2-3 shots on the YT-1300 with 3-4 attack dice and 0 defense dice. The built in psuedo-PTL will be a huge advantage. I think squints will end up being cheaper, though, which means we might be able to run five in a squad or 4 with a TIE fighter to round it out.

At the same time, the counterargument is that Han with Luke and the Falcon title, using 1st edition costs doubled without considering anything else, will be 108 points. Is two squints worth that? Maybe not (so hopefully the cost of the YT-1300 goes up accordingly).

As others have stated, we really won't know how bad this is until we see points costs. Luke costs 7 in 1st edition. He might cost 30+ in second for all we know.

Also, I have to agree that this is a huge PR mistake to have Luke in the first wave like this. If an ability like this had come a few waves later after people had gotten used to always playing with mobile arcs, we might not eve be having this discussion. Time will tell, I guess.

21 minutes ago, Icelom said:

For me x-wing is hope, someone tosses 4 modded dice at my ship with 1 evade dice no mods and 1hp left i have a chance! i have hope until the dice go down. In 2.0 i can take an initiative 1 arc dodger and have hope that i can totally outguess my opponents initiative 6 ship, but I have none of that hope against luke gunner, it does not matter what i do with my ship.

Initiative 1 arc dodger against a mobile arc ship without gunner Luke is still going to get caught in a firing arc. The main difference here is that the one with gunner Luke might also have focus or lock to modify with, as well as the force points. I swear Luke is going to have to cost as much as some entire ships.

1 hour ago, Icelom said:

3 minutes ago, Ixidor said:

Also, I have to agree that this is a huge PR mistake to have Luke in the first wave like this. If an ability had come a few waves later after people had gotten use to always playing with mobile arcs, we might not eve be having this discussion. Time will tell, I guess.

It's bad PR only for a subset of 1.0 veterans.

New players and casuals will love Han with Luke.

Falcon expansion will continue to sell like crazy in 2.0.

59 minutes ago, Icelom said:

1 hour ago, Icelom said:

5 minutes ago, Ixidor said:

Initiative 1 arc dodger against a mobile arc ship without gunner Luke is still going to get caught in a firing arc. The main difference here is that the one with gunner Luke might also have focus or lock to modify with, as well as the force points. I swear Luke is going to have to cost as much as some entire ships.

Exactly.

Sitting with an interceptor deciding to do a 3 sloop to catch the turret ship out of arc forcing it to have to spend its action to turn the turret to engage me or mod up and go after one of my more defensible ships. Against luke gunner there is no point might as well do the safest most boring move possible and sit there with my token because there is no advantage to me to try that exciting risky sloop and get out of his arc.

He just takes the fun and excitement out of x-wing and brings none of his own (this is just my opinion)

58 minutes ago, Icelom said:

You mean like every other ship in the game? every scum ship, every imperial ship, every none turret ship, every none gunner seat turret ship?

Your argument is that for certain ships their weakness should be removed?

I mean, pretty much. I feel like these threads have really highlighted how much of a hit these large based turrets have taken. If you take a look at all the old staples:

Han gets Luke to compensate.

Dash hits like a truck natively and gets a relative PS boost. Go big or go home, basically.

Dengar is essentially a front arced ship with a predictable dial. He must be getting a fair bit cheaper to compensate.

The Decimator has no reposition and looks to really exploit some of those awesome Imperial crew to be worth taking.

Out of all of those, the Falcon is the only remaining large based boosting fat turret left in the game. Based on the rest of the rebalancing elsewhere, he may actually need something like Luke to be worth taking.

52 minutes ago, Icelom said:

Vader is fantastic, but he can be outmaneuvered, stressed, blocked, ioned, and so on. Lots of ways to counterplay him.

Will Vader be a beast? no doubt about it. But a well-flown z-95 can ruin his day.

Well let’s compare Vader vs a YT-1300 with Luke Gunner.

Our YT moves, takes a focus.

Vader moves, takes a focus and BR out of arc.

YT uses LG to recover his arc on Vader.

Vader now has 2 attack dice modifiable (focus or 3 Force tokens) vs 1 defence dice with a focus. He has 3 evade dice (modifiable with focus or force tokens)

The YT has 3 attack dice and 1 evade dice but can only modify for attack or defense with the one focus token.

That sounds about right doesn’t it?

1 minute ago, Tam Palso said:

Well let’s compare Vader vs a YT-1300 with Luke Gunner.

Our YT moves, takes a focus.

Vader moves, takes a focus and BR out of arc.

YT uses LG to recover his arc on Vader.

Vader now has 2 attack dice modifiable (focus or 3 Force tokens) vs 1 defence dice with a focus. He has 3 evade dice (modifiable with focus or force tokens)

The YT has 3 attack dice and 1 evade dice but can only modify for attack or defense with the one focus token.

That sounds about right doesn’t it?

or... a 12 point z-95 blocks Vader stopping him from any actions or getting a shot on anyone.
a 12 point tie fighter blocks the yt-1300 it still moves its turret and fires on anything it wants

That sound about right doesn't it?

It's not about luke being overpowered how can you people not read that when I say it? it's about him having no counterplay. I don't care if luke gunner is so expensive that he sucks, I care that he is just a dumb card that has no counterplay and adds nothing of value to the game.

3 minutes ago, Icelom said:

It's not about luke being overpowered how can you people not read that when I say it? it's about him having no counterplay. I don't care if luke gunner is so expensive that he sucks, I care that he is just a dumb card that has no counterplay and adds nothing of value to the game.

The trouble is that your definition of counterplay is limited to stopping a ship from being able to move their arc so you can dodge it. In which case yes, you are correct. There'll have to be another way, that's what Luke is enforcing.

Absolutely agree.

The company was most definitely thinking,

"Hmm. Let's make a card that will make all the forum dementors and obsessive over-thinkers have a malfunction and rage-quit our game. This will instantaneously increase our sales because of the influx of normal people playing the game and buying up all the rage-quitter's old collections. Raise sales AND promote Positive Play Experiences! We'll kill two birds with one stone! Whadda ya think, boss?"

Other guy:

"How much will it cost?"

First guy:

"We've got to whiff our new Luke crew card (which we can force out of play later), and push it out with an easy publicity stunt. "

Other Guy:

18 minutes ago, Tam Palso said:

Well let’s compare Vader vs a YT-1300 with Luke Gunner.

Our YT moves, takes a focus.

Vader moves, takes a focus and BR out of arc.

YT uses LG to recover his arc on Vader.

Vader now has 2 attack dice modifiable (focus or 3 Force tokens) vs 1 defence dice with a focus. He has 3 evade dice (modifiable with focus or force tokens)

The YT has 3 attack dice and 1 evade dice but can only modify for attack or defense with the one focus token.

That sounds about right doesn’t it?

Vader would spend 1 force point to get the TL for ATC/FCS, but sure.

5 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

Vader would spend 1 force point to get the TL for ATC/FCS, but sure.

No he wouldn't, it's after you preform an action for his ability. Like I said you can counter Vader's ability.

2 minutes ago, Icelom said:

No he wouldn't, it's after you preform an action for his ability. Like I said you can counter Vader's ability.

That's the whole point of gunner luke, though... to limit the enemy's ability to screw with you. Blocked, He's still throwing 3 unmodified dice back at vader's 3 force modified defense dice. (if you're assuming luke modification, Luke isnt being "gamebreaking", the arcs are being rotated as intended)

Gunner luke takes literal non-play events and makes them playable.

6 minutes ago, Icelom said:

No he wouldn't, it's after you preform an action for his ability. Like I said you can counter Vader's ability.

Why wouldn't you also pick up the lock, then? He could easily have the lock from a previous turn as well, or he'd take it on this turn to use on a upcoming one.

Just now, Ixidor said:

Why wouldn't you also pick up the lock, then? He could easily have the lock from a previous turn as well, or he'd take it on this turn to use on a upcoming one.

He's talking about his own scenerio, where both ships were blocked by 12 point filler. Vader wouldnt be able to push because he didnt have an action, luke could rotate arc, but not mod dice.