There are a lot of naysayers talking about Gunner Luke bringing the horrible aspects of TLT ghost, Dengar Jump, Fat Han and Super Dash back to 2.0- even if he is overpriced to oblivion, his mechanics have no place in 2.0.

Those people are wrong, but they will vote with their wallets.

When a kid is learning to ride a bike, falling over is a scary thing. Until the kid learns to peddle and steer, Training wheels exist, that keep the kid from falling over. That is EXACTLY what gunner luke is- Training wheels for mobile arcs.

The scary part of a newbie picking up a Shadowcaster (or any 2.0 mobile arc) is pointing your guns the wrong way. The nightmare, is pointing your guns the wrong way once, clipping a rock, getting bumped 3 times, and dying without ever firing a shot. (You've seen it happen, dont lie) Yes, the shadowcaster got outplayed, but we're talking a newbie here- they were always going to get outplayed. Gunner Luke, on the other hand, takes almost all skill out of flying a turret. Naysayers harp on this as a bad thing (except they remove the "almost"). But to the newbie, it may be the difference between learning the game and quitting after a roflstomp.

"Almost" all skill? Yes, there is a skill element to Gunner Luke. If you dont need to use him to make up for your mistakes, he modifies your dice. A newbie will rarely get to use this when they get outplayed- but when they do get it, it's a reward for playing the game the 2.0 way. Eventually the newbie learns how to keep guns on target to maximize their force token use for offense... and once they can do that, they can start playing with different gunner upgrades.

What's the most toxic archetype for beginner players to face? High PS arcdodgers- Lists that punish you for making mistakes, and dont even let you roll dice back. Stop picking on the newbie- or if it's a tournament, stop thinking like an arcdodger and start thinking like a green-heavy jouster. Luke will be expensive- 100% red dice uptime is worth points- and turrets arnt supposed to have the best jousting efficeny even without luke. If you cannot beat a pancake firing 1 shot per turn, either your dice hate you, or you relied too much on mobility and inititive and not enough on the fundamentals of jousting value and action efficency.

Luke gunner has a very high skill floor, but his skill ceiling isnt much higher. Compare Veteran Turret Gunner, who gives a solid double tap if you can get targets in 2 arcs (which may be the same arc). At best, that's twice as powerful as Luke- a skill ceiling twice as high. Anyone who's flown a Tie SF knows the importance of those double tap shots for winning the game.

So Luke does exactly what FFG wants- ease new players into mobile arcs while offering a reward for playing the game as intended.

So why is this an awful PR decision? The reason is obvous now- bringing even a ghost of the former PWT days back frightens people who were driven off by the excesses of 1.0. If they bring back old turrets, what else are they bringing back? My leet skillz failed by a dumb kid with a netlist! Trust Ruined!

I am confident in saying Gunner Luke will not be a competitive stable. A list to beat, certiantly- if you cant beat a no skill list that's priced appropriately, that's on you. But I predict Gunner Luke will not be showing up on any top tables in the next year. He is just training wheels for newbies who want to fly the heros they saw in the movies.

training wheels are there to help ease into a mechanic, not utterly invalidate it

I can't say I agree at all with gunner luke being a "new player friendly" upgrade, not only for its horrible design but for the fact that there is currently no way at all for a player new to 2.0 to acquire the Falcon without buying a 1.0 falcon + conversion kit. Until they reveal that a bunch of 2.0 expacs are being released simultaneously with the game's launch, all we got for new rebel players are X-wings and Ys (hi, mobile arcs!) unless they're willing to go hunting for content outside the game itself (and a LOT of it, because conversion kits are trash value if you're buying them for but a single ship)

There is a way, however, for new players to acquire a proper set of training wheels: Luke pilot. A simple, solid X-wing stacked with action independent mods to make overlapping and stress far more forgiving than otherwise. Comes right with the core set, does not invalidate core design principles

In short, Gunner Luke is a horrible set of training wheels, has yet to be included in anything that a new player could easily access, and is rendered superfluous by a proper set of training wheels: pilot Luke

So until the most popular selling kit comes in wave 2 with the upgrade you hate, it isnt a training wheel? Should the second wave of 2.0 come with cards that arnt in the conversion kit? Are Luke Gunner Ywings really that scary?

you're missing the point that invalidating the entire mechanic != training wheels

and if anything, gunner luke is just going to infuriate new players when it is used against them

plus, unless players new to X-wing are going to be buying conversion kits as standard, Luke gunner is a horrible idea from an accessibility standpoint unless it comes in the Y-wing

Now trust me, I am the FOREMOST advocate of proxying upgrade cards, but youd amazed how many people don't want to play with what they don't own

It's inexplicable to me, but apparently it's a very prominent concern

You're forgetting that FFG has promised to push out rereleases as fast as their supply chain can handle- 2.0 Falcons, Outriders, Defenders, and so on will all be coming sooner rather than later. Which brings me back to my point about conversion kits- Should a card released in Wave 2 NOT be in the conversion kit?

The Ywing is a perfect example of Gunner Luke NOT invalidating the whole mechanic. Having 1 Ywing with a 360 turret is defferent than having 4 with double tap dorsal turrets from Veteran Turret gunner. It's not a newbie ship the way the Falcon is, but the falcon is coming only a month or two behind the core set.

3 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

You're forgetting that FFG has promised to push out rereleases as fast as their supply chain can handle- 2.0 Falcons, Outriders, Defenders, and so on will all be coming sooner rather than later. Which brings me back to my point about conversion kits- Should a card released in Wave 2 NOT be in the conversion kit?

The Ywing is a perfect example of Gunner Luke NOT invalidating the whole mechanic. Having 1 Ywing with a 360 turret is defferent than having 4 with double tap dorsal turrets from Veteran Turret gunner. It's not a newbie ship the way the Falcon is, but the falcon is coming only a month or two behind the core set.

There will be cards in wave 2.0 that we haven't seen before. FO and Resistance.

A month is a LONG time to wait after the launch and inveitable marketing blitz of a "brand new" game, esp when the mobile arc mechanic will have been available for that long

Don't get me wrong, I find it admirable to try to see the good in anything, but in this case we're basically digging for corn in a **** soup

Not even (bog standard) Space Marines violated the core elements of 40k, and when GW is doing a better job at game design...

Point is, not seeing the "training wheel" aspect. It's just a game breaker rendered moot by properly done training wheels like pilot Luke

44 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

What's the most toxic archetype for beginner players to face? High PS arcdodgers- Lists that punish you for making mistakes, and dont even let you roll dice back. Stop picking on the newbie- or if it's a tournament, stop thinking like an arcdodger and start thinking like a green-heavy jouster. Luke will be expensive- 100% red dice uptime is worth points- and turrets arnt supposed to have the best jousting efficeny even without luke. If you cannot beat a pancake firing 1 shot per turn, either your dice hate you, or you relied too much on mobility and inititive and not enough on the fundamentals of jousting value and action efficency.

8

Works both ways, a newbie brings his new shiny a-wings or tie interceptors and is told the mechanics of his new ships are irrelevant against Luke gunner. "so you are telling me no matter how well I fly this super fast and manoeuvrable a-wing the big turret ship can just shoot at it with a modded shot and there is nothing I can do about it? even if I run from it it can large ship boost and then turn its turret to catch me no matter where I am?"

Sounds like a great time for a beginner player to me.

People have to moan about something! I think it'll be fine myself; better players will go for a gunner that helps to splat things based on good play, not easy mode...

I think that it's very thematic, myself. Luke span around in the turret in AnH splatting things. Cost is the balancing factor, as always, but thematics are crucial, and if it helps newer playera, but not pros, what's the problem...?

On May 22, 2018 at 8:40 PM, Icelom said:

Works both ways, a newbie brings his new shiny a-wings or tie interceptors and is told the mechanics of his new ships are irrelevant against Luke gunner. "so you are telling me no matter how well I fly this super fast and manoeuvrable a-wing the big turret ship can just shoot at it with a modded shot and there is nothing I can do about it? even if I run from it it can large ship boost and then turn its turret to catch me no matter where I am?"

Sounds like a great time for a beginner player to me.

Sounds just like Awings attacking Han and Luke in a Falcon to me! They'll love it, as they chase and get shots...

Fickle, how on earth are you so salty about Luke when all you’ve been telling people for the last few weeks is WE DONT KNOW POINT COSTS?? Oh, and do we even have the proper card text?!

Worst case is Luke is actually broken and they fix him after a month or two by making him more expensive. More likely? They did some play testing and made him balanced.

1 minute ago, Larky Bobble said:

Sounds just like Awings attacking Han and Luke in a Falcon to me! They'll love it, as they chase and get shots...

No they won't, the falcon will boost out the a-wings arc then use its free turret movement that cant be stopped to fire on the A-wing. Since the falcon does not care what way it's facing 100% of the time its free to arc dodge like a madman while the arc dodge a-wing is left in its dust.

Hehe... Boost out of arc is cool in theory... But a pack of chasing Awings/Intshave the hard ones with boost, linked with focus? I don't know... But either way, you're facing a pack of hounds that'll be taking multiple R3 shots against a more fragile MF, or there'll be no shots. Then they have the MF trapped for a beating next turn!

I think people are bitter from 1.0 npe with this, and can't see the wood for the tree...

57 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

There will be cards in wave 2.0 that we haven't seen before. FO and Resistance.

Should cards in wave3 not be in the Resistance conversion kit?

Nube tubes are a good thing. Luke is not efficient if your using him to turn a turret but will make the game more fun for new players.

its not eliminating the turret mechanics as you are rewarded for not using it.

I’m guessing Luke gunner will come with the 2.0 falcon and that it will be one of quickest released post wave 1.

24 minutes ago, Icelom said:

Works both ways, a newbie brings his new shiny a-wings or tie interceptors and is told the mechanics of his new ships are irrelevant against Luke gunner. "so you are telling me no matter how well I fly this super fast and manoeuvrable a-wing the big turret ship can just shoot at it with a modded shot and there is nothing I can do about it? even if I run from it it can large ship boost and then turn its turret to catch me no matter where I am?"

Sounds like a great time for a beginner player to me.

Well yeah, it's Luke freaking Skywalker in the gunners seat of the Falcon. I mean, it can only shoot at one at a time, and they can evade, and the Falcon isn't as tanky as it used to be...

12 minutes ago, Icelom said:

No they won't, the falcon will boost out the a-wings arc then use its free turret movement that cant be stopped to fire on the A-wing. Since the falcon does not care what way it's facing 100% of the time its free to arc dodge like a madman while the arc dodge a-wing is left in its dust.

Yeah, but you're comparing one A Wing to one loaded up Falcon.

It's fair to say that an even match up will probably be three or four A Wings to the falcon. And you've got to be muy, muy beuno to avoid four arcs every turn. And it's probably more. How many A Wings do you think you'll see in a "standard" list now? Five? Six? Who knows. But all of them will be gunning for the Falcon.

At the end of the day, it's just one ship.

I feel like training wheels upgrades are appropriate, but that Luke Gunner probably goes a bit too far. Minister Tua grants a red reinforce action at the start of engagement: that's perfect knowledge for a powerful action, but there's an appropriately heavy restriction. A gunner card which worked much the same way: "perform a red rotate action at the start of engagement" would have possibly been fine. But Luke just rotates, and provides rare dice modification if you don't have to rotate the arc. I think that's a little more than I could call training wheels: it's more like being driven around by a parent in a car.

Likewise, I dislike that it looks like the only "training wheels" gunner we've seen is Rebel. I'd much rather have seen a generic with a weaker ability (something essentially Gyroscopic Targeting would be great, or something which rotated arcs in the Devices phase, or really any other time in the game), and have Luke do something that isn't, well, kinda boring.

If you think Luke invalidates the turret mechanic then your bad at math.

He can spend that force token other ways.

Luke is a terrible card with a horrible design. We can only hope the English to Polish translation was ****** up, as as he is revealed he is a terrible design. I was looking forward to seeing Interceptors again, but you can't field them against Luke.

1 minute ago, HolySorcerer said:

Luke is a terrible card with a horrible design. We can only hope the English to Polish translation was ****** up, as as he is revealed he is a terrible design. I was looking forward to seeing Interceptors again, but you can't field them against Luke.

Sure you can. Alphas throw 3 dice with focus if they weren't the one ship shot at, and Stealth/hull/predator Soontir loves shooting at large base ships.

Luke to me is a silver bullet.

He will be not cheap, so him having a force mechanic is nessesary, else there would be games in which he is not used at all.

But if you are fighting soontir fel, you will be really happy if you have it and not loose without a chance.

5 hours ago, TylerTT said:

If you think Luke invalidates the turret mechanic then your bad at math.

He can spend that force token other ways.

This. Luke's real strength will be in letting you take modified shots while still leaving the Falcon free to take an evade action and benefit from the title. The arc rotation is nice, but something you should only be using on turns when you screw up your arc placement.

44 minutes ago, Jarval said:

This. Luke's real strength will be in letting you take modified shots while still leaving the Falcon free to take an evade action and benefit from the title. The arc rotation is nice, but something you should only be using on turns when you screw up your arc placement.

I think Luke’s other real strength is he stops your turret being jammed in one position by multiple stress effects (such as Admiral Sloane crew).

No LG and any turret based ship is much more vulnerable to restricted arcs from stress effects. (Noting in the context of the Falcon that no longer has a hard 1 turn to help maintain arc).

But you’re right, LG isn’t so much an offensive upgrade as a defensive one, allowing a ship to act, but keep ‘some’ dice modification.

If it proves to be too strong, they'll ban it for tournament play. If it is supposed to be just training wheels for newbies, it won't matter so much. They have already stated that they plan to ban certain cards for tournaments. They have announced their intentions in this regard.
Or they will release an errata document where they specify that it performs a rotate turret action, making it impossible to boost and rotate with Luke's ability, and forcing it to do a blue next round.

I don't expect Luke to be the only unbalanced thing that 2.0 will come out with. They have had 1 year to playtest hundreds of different game parts, while that was roughly the amount of time they used to have to playtest a single wave in 1.0.
Just brace yourselves and hope that they will react faster than in 1.0.

6 minutes ago, Tam Palso said:

No LG and any turret based ship is much more vulnerable to restricted arcs from stress effects. (Noting in the context of the Falcon that no longer has a hard 1 turn to help maintain arc).

Not just stress effects - anything that denies actions. Flying over obstacles, bumping, Ion tokens... there's a lot of ways for mobuile arcs to get shafted in 2nd Edition.