In terms of exhaust weapons, I wonder if non-exhaust ion, HH12, etc. would make vehicles unplayable.

I mean, losing one action on an ATST is pretty big. Not being able to move and shoot, or pivot and shoot, or aim and shoot, etc. can be crippling. You either have to shoot with no mods, or just move.

As it stands now, you can shoot ion every turn as long as the unit is not suppressed. If you did not have to reload ion, and could shoot every turn suppressed or not, there really would be no counter play as a vehicle, other than take out the ion unit as fast as possible. Or if not suppressed, a unit could continually move and shoot ion, etc.

Or, an HH12 without reload would be a little too good. Wipe out an ATRT in 2 rounds, or just continually throw 3 black dice with surge conversion out to range 4.

Also, I am sure we will see more types of support and heavy in the game, so perhaps ion will be better in the future. Right now there are not that many vehicle options.

____________________

Just some thoughts. That being said, I take DTL over HH12, and likely flame over ion haha.

I didn't know this was even a question.. exhaust is very much needed. In my first real game my HH12 took out my opponent's AT-RT before it could fire a shot. He moved it into range. First round - aim, fire. Second round - reload, aim, *new ways to motivate them*, fire. No more AT-RT. Defensive use of the exhaust weapons is very powerful. Since the HH12 prevents moving and firing anyway, reload and fire every round at approaching armor.

It is just enough of a hindrance to keep every squad from having ion/rockets. But used efficiently it is still very effective. 3 shots with the rocket or Ion is not unreasonable in a game. Aim, shoot. Move, reload. Aim, shoot etc.. And the loss of 3 actions from an AT-ST can be very expensive for the imperials. The area denial or outright loss of an AT-RT or speeder can be equally expensive for the Rebels.

“These upgrades have to be useless or else this unit would be useless” is bad game design.

12 minutes ago, WAC47 said:

“These upgrades have to be useless or else this unit would be useless” is bad game design.

Not necessarily

Not every element in a game has to be applicable across a broad spectrum. Control elements in particular, can be useful as a design safety blanket, but should never be the most efficient option.

Let's say FFG releases a vehicle with some new piece of defensive tech and the thing is an absolute monster. The fact that Ions exist and that both factions have access to them means that an option exists to deal with it or keep it in check without necessarily having to outright kill it.

This will also become more important as the game progresses and it becomes increasingly possible to field lists that may not be terrifically effective against vehicles. For example, if you run Han, Trip Commandos with Snipers and 6 trooper units, such a build might be fine with a weapon on the Troopers that just keep Armored targets occupied as the firepower to kill them is not as accessible.

I think the snowtrooper/fleet troopers exhaust weapons could lose exhaust or be cheaper.

I don't think exhaust itself was ever the problem. It was always the fact that these weapons come at a huge points cost in addition to being exhaustible. It makes it hard to justify bringing along.

2 hours ago, SwdPwnzDggr said:

I don't think exhaust itself was ever the problem. It was always the fact that these weapons come at a huge points cost in addition to being exhaustible. It makes it hard to justify bringing along.

Yeah, it’s the combination of the exhaust and the high cost that do it.

I actually think the HH-12 is decent, given the range and it’s clear synergy with Veers.

The snowtrooper ion and the fleet grenade launcher seem extremely inefficient though, especially compared to the other heavy options for those two units, which look great.

1 hour ago, Orkimedes said:

The snowtrooper ion and the fleet grenade launcher seem extremely inefficient though, especially compared to the other heavy options for those two units, which look great.

Something to remember is that you're not necessarily paying points for a weapon, you're adding dice and special rules to a weapon system you're already using. For example, the fleet grenade launcher makes your 10 white blaster dice ignore cover which is definitely handy. It makes your impact grenades ignore cover as well.

5 hours ago, WAC47 said:

“These upgrades have to be useless or else this unit would be useless” is bad game design.

Ridiculous hyperbole is never helpful. Exhaustible weapons are clearly not useless. And an ATST that can only take one action per turn is not useless either, it’s just severely limited.

I see a lot of people complaining that the ATST is too good but then not wanting to pay to bring the tools that counter it. There are lots of choices you need to make in putting together your Legion and many of them are hard choices. I really can’t see that as anything other than exactly the right game design. It seems people want a set of obvious, easy decisions to have their cake and eat it to. Good luck finding that game.

So far the consensus appears to be for Imperials to bring an ATST and for Rebels to bring a ton of troopers and just play the objectives. My guess is some smart-Alek will show up to the first big tournament and rip everyone to shreds with an imperial squad that has no ATST or a rebel squad filled with exhaustible weapons and then everyone will immediately reverse all their opinions and start demanding ATST buffs and exhaustible weapon nerfs.

1 hour ago, BigBadAndy said:

My guess is some smart-Alek will show up to the first big tournament and rip everyone to shreds with an imperial squad that has no ATST or a rebel squad filled with exhaustible weapons and then everyone will immediately reverse all their opinions and start demanding ATST buffs and exhaustible weapon nerfs.

[sarcasm] inconceivable... [/sarcasm]

2 hours ago, Katarn said:

Something to remember is that you're not necessarily paying points for a weapon, you're adding dice and special rules to a weapon system you're already using. For example, the fleet grenade launcher makes your 10 white blaster dice ignore cover which is definitely handy. It makes your impact grenades ignore cover as well.

Yeah, that’s definitely a consideration. Unfortunately, in the case of the fleet troopers, the shotgun + full squad dice pool still outperforms the grenade launcher + full squad dice pool in all cases, including vs. heavy cover.

So you are really just paying for the impact 2.

51 minutes ago, Orkimedes said:

Yeah, that’s definitely a consideration. Unfortunately, in the case of the fleet troopers, the shotgun + full squad dice pool still outperforms the grenade launcher + full squad dice pool in all cases, including vs. heavy cover.

So you are really just paying for the impact 2.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but a unit of 6 fleet troopers rolls 10 white surge dice (5 using DH-17s) plus either 2 red (shotgun) or the MPL dice.

If a target is in cover that negates 2 hits, so the 2 red dice would have to average 2 hits in order to break even with the MPL, even if the MPL rolled zero dice. To the best of my knowledge, surge red dice are a 7/8 chance, which, although very close to 100%, is not quite there. (And yes, yes, pierce 1 means a hit gets through almost for sure, except for Vader, Luke, and Boba, armor, and failing to get more hits than cover/dodge of course).

37 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but a unit of 6 fleet troopers rolls 10 white surge dice (5 using DH-17s) plus either 2 red (shotgun) or the MPL dice.

If a target is in cover that negates 2 hits, so the 2 red dice would have to average 2 hits in order to break even with the MPL, even if the MPL rolled zero dice. To the best of my knowledge, surge red dice are a 7/8 chance, which, although very close to 100%, is not quite there. (And yes, yes, pierce 1 means a hit gets through almost for sure, except for Vader, Luke, and Boba, armor, and failing to get more hits than cover/dodge of course).

When you work the math down to the level of wounds (not just damage rolled) the shotgun unit outperforms the MPL unit.

For example, shooting against stormtroopers in heavy cover the shotgun averages 2.75 wounds vs the MPL’s 2.5625. That pierce is doing a lot of work.

Think of it this way, against imperials, pierce one cancels 1 shield, which on average needs two red dice to roll, so is effectively worth 2 hits.

If you do the full calculation it's actually even better than that, because it makes even a single crit result that squeezes through the cover unblockable.

18 minutes ago, colki said:

Think of it this way, against imperials, pierce one cancels 1 shield, which on average needs two red dice to roll, so is effectively worth 2 hits.

If you do the full calculation it's actually even better than that, because it makes even a single crit result that squeezes through the cover unblockable.

Well, no it’s effectively worth 1 hit. Just because it averages the same if there are already 3 hits doesn’t make it as valuable as.

My biggest beef with some heavy weapons is that the unit can't move and shoot, which is very limiting when you need your troopers to take objectives. I don't mind the exhausted part, it's the no-move that is crippling. You have to get them to their position fast, then camp.

I think some exhaust weapons are priced too high. Why are they 10ish points above the non-exhaust weapon? Ion is cool, but it's also niche and you need to deal damage. If you're opponent blocks all the crits, you just wasted an attack. I don't want a guarantee, but if I'm paying 30sum points, need to recover, and need a damage to go through, I sure as **** hope to get 1 damage past defense dice. It just doesn't feel good. I'm sure it's mostly balanced, but my Z6 squads are consistently rolling 1-2 crits per attack for cheaper and with less constraints. And if I whiff against armor, it sucks but it's to be expected.

Bottom line: exhaust weapons don't feel effective because of their constraints.

9 hours ago, nashjaee said:

When you work the math down to the level of wounds (not just damage rolled) the shotgun unit outperforms the MPL unit.

For example, shooting against stormtroopers in heavy cover the shotgun averages 2.75 wounds vs the MPL’s 2.5625. That pierce is doing a lot of work.

^^ this.

It is hard to overstate the value of pierce. That’s why Luke’s saber does the same wounds to a 6 man stormtrooper squad as an AT-RT flamethrower (3.75), even though you are getting half as many hits, on average.

Here’s the average number of wounds for shotgun vs. grenade launcher (plus the pool from 5 squad mates in both cases):

vs. stormtroopers

grenade launcher: 2.5625 (all cover types)

shotgun: 3.75, 3.25, 2.75 (none, light, heavy)

vs. rebel troopers

grenade launcher: 3.416 (all cover types)

shotgun: 4.666, 4, 3.333 (none, light, heavy)

So the shotgun is objectively better in all cases except vs. rebels in heavy cover, where it is only marginally worse.

The impact 2 is therefore what you are paying the extra 11 points, the exhaust, and the decreased effectiveness vs troops for. Given that rebels have few high impact weapons, perhaps this is intended. It just looks weird on paper.

The primary problem with exhaust currently is there's really only 1 model that justifies its cost. I think as the game sees more AT-ST level models, they'll feel more appropriately costed. It's entirely possible that, like Torpedoes in X-Wing, this never ends up being the case, but for the most part I feel like there's enough value in Ion vs the AT-ST for it to work out once there's more stuff like that in the game.

10 hours ago, Derrault said:

Well, no it’s effectively worth 1 hit. Just because it averages the same if there are already 3 hits doesn’t make it as valuable as.

Not even close, sorry. It gets *better* when there are fewer hits. But you don't need to believe me, just try it. Roll a few attacks with the two weapons (and the rest of the pool) and imagine the scenarios (white/red defence dice, light/heavy/no cover) and you will quickly realise the value.

Or, like me, write a script to do that 1,000,000 times for you

The grenade launcher has two bonuses - range 3 and Impact 2.

On 5/23/2018 at 10:21 AM, Orkimedes said:

^^ this.

It is hard to overstate the value of pierce. That’s why Luke’s saber does the same wounds to a 6 man stormtrooper squad as an AT-RT flamethrower (3.75), even though you are getting half as many hits, on average.

Here’s the average number of wounds for shotgun vs. grenade launcher (plus the pool from 5 squad mates in both cases):

vs. stormtroopers

grenade launcher: 2.5625 (all cover types)

shotgun: 3.75, 3.25, 2.75 (none, light, heavy)

vs. rebel troopers

grenade launcher: 3.416 (all cover types)

shotgun: 4.666, 4, 3.333 (none, light, heavy)

So the shotgun is objectively better in all cases except vs. rebels in heavy cover, where it is only marginally worse.

The impact 2 is therefore what you are paying the extra 11 points, the exhaust, and the decreased effectiveness vs troops for. Given that rebels have few high impact weapons, perhaps this is intended. It just looks weird on paper.

Your numbers are off by a bit. showing the work:

w=.250
ws=.375
b=.500
bs=.625
r=.750
rs=.875

5ftdh17 = 10ws = 3.75 ave (0-10)
fts = 2rs = +1.75 ave (0-2)

mpl = 1bs + 2ws = +1.375 ave (0-3)

fts = 5.5 ave (0-12) tic = 3.5 ave (0-10)
mpl = 5.125 ave (0-13) tic = 5.125 ave (0-13)

fts wounds vs red defense dice in heavy cover (stormtroopers) = 2.25 ave (1 pierce, 0-10 hits after heavy cover)
ftmpl wounds vs red defense dice in heavy cover (stormtroopers) = 2.5625 ave (blast ignores cover for 0-13 hits)

vs vehicles
fts = 1.5 crit (only crits get past armor) = 1.3333 wounds ave (pierce ensures first crit goes through)
ftmpl = 1.625 crit, 3.5 hit ave for 2 impact = 3.625 past armor ave = 2.4166667 wounds ave + ion token

On 5/23/2018 at 12:05 PM, colki said:

Not even close, sorry. It gets *better* when there are fewer hits. But you don't need to believe me, just try it. Roll a few attacks with the two weapons (and the rest of the pool) and imagine the scenarios (white/red defence dice, light/heavy/no cover) and you will quickly realise the value.

Or, like me, write a script to do that 1,000,000 times for you

The grenade launcher has two bonuses - range 3 and Impact 2.

I don’t have to take your word for it, I have done the math above. Pierce isn’t as good as you imagine it to be. And the scatter gun is directly inferior to the MPL against a target in cover or armored.

2 hours ago, Derrault said:

Your numbers are off by a bit. showing the work:

w=.250
ws=.375
b=.500
bs=.625
r=.750
rs=.875

5ftdh17 = 10ws = 3.75 ave (0-10)
fts = 2rs = +1.75 ave (0-2)

mpl = 1bs + 2ws = +1.375 ave (0-3)

fts = 5.5 ave (0-12) tic = 3.5 ave (0-10)
mpl = 5.125 ave (0-13) tic = 5.125 ave (0-13)

fts wounds vs red defense dice in heavy cover (stormtroopers) = 2.25 ave (1 pierce, 0-10 hits after heavy cover)
ftmpl wounds vs red defense dice in heavy cover (stormtroopers) = 2.5625 ave (blast ignores cover for 0-13 hits)

vs vehicles
fts = 1.5 crit (only crits get past armor) = 1.3333 wounds ave (pierce ensures first crit goes through)
ftmpl = 1.625 crit, 3.5 hit ave for 2 impact = 3.625 past armor ave = 2.4166667 wounds ave + ion token

I don’t have to take your word for it, I have done the math above. Pierce isn’t as good as you imagine it to be. And the scatter gun is directly inferior to the MPL against a target in cover or armored.

What do your acronyms stand for? I'm not sure I fully understand your numbers.

Here's what I did, let me know what I did wrong...

The below is just for Stormtroopers.

Id guess, red white and black die, die surge.

Your base wounds on the cover 2 is off, it should be 2.5 x .5 + 1 not 3.5 x .5 + 1.

1 hit of the 3.5 effectively doesn’t get rolled against, only 2.5 of them. By dividing all of the hits and then adding 1 you’ve added two extra rolls that don’t occur.

For the Fleet Troopers MPL I feel like the Impact 2 AND Blast is what made it an exhaust. Though I would rather have it Impact 1 and not exhaust or just lower the cost of the weapon in general.