Luke is a crutch. Nothing more. It's really not that powerful, it uses established game mechanics (unlike 1.0 Biggs) and there is counterplay. It will be a waste for most experienced players, both in points and opportunity cost. It would only be helpful for new players who don't know how to hit anything, and they won't be elevated to godlike levels either. They'll just be able to get a few (probably unmodded) shots off before they die.

I just can't think of many matchups that would be favorable to a Han/Luke combo or wouldn't at least have a fighting chance if played well.

I would fly 5 naked 1.0 Alpha Squadron interceptors against it and bet on winning. Or 8 ties, MF title notwithstanding. Or Soontir/Vader/Inqy. Or Palpshuttle/Vader/Inqy. Or double defenders. Or literally anything. I don't see it winning every time. I'd be hard pressed to see it winning at all.

12 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

it most certainly is not

Only in as much as Han has the ability to do it natively. Chewie and Lando don't even have the option to 1.0 turret without Luke.

6 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

Only in as much as Han has the ability to do it natively. Chewie and Lando don't even have the option to 1.0 turret without Luke.

Again, no

If you needed an action to pwt in 1.0, fat Han would NOT have been a thing

Or he would've been a jouster

Again, I 6 rotate takes an action.luke does not and cannot even be stopped like a free action can nor reacted to like a not-pre-engagement ability can (Inquisitor crew)

****, you can dodge i6 rotate with an i6 and bid. Can you dodge gunner Luke?

31 minutes ago, wurms said:

Its not about being equally strong. It's about having a chance. If a game presents an unsolvable puzzle, nobody will play the game. I will hand you a single 6 sided die, and say "If you roll a 7 I will give you $1 million". How many times are you going to roll that die? Now, if I said "If you can roll a 6 ten times in a row I will give you $1 million" You now know there is a chance, and if you have 5 or 10 minutes of free time, might just give it a shot.

Would people play the lottery if there was a 0% chance of winning? 1 in 100,000,000 and millions of people play. But what about if it was 0%?

Are you going to fly an arc dodger with 0% chance to dodge arcs? Without autothrusters and evades being nerfed? There is no reason to fly a 3 hull interceptor over a 6+ hull jouster defender if you cant dodge an arc. EVERY TIME your interceptor faces Luke Gunner, EVERY TIME, 0% chance to dodge an arc. 0% chance. EVERY TIME you see that Luke Gunner staring across the table from you, you WILL GET SHOT AT EVERY ROUND. Doesnt matter if I bring a ship that puts 5 stress on Han, or 20 academies to block him. I get shot, EVERY ROUND.

Luke = bad game design.

So how would your arc-dodger handle quad Wookiees, who will probably also still be a thing? They also have it pretty easy to catch your interceptor in arc without autothrusters. Your Ints would be DOA regardless of Luke.

27 minutes ago, Icelom said:

Luke does not have to go on an I6 han he can go on a heavily discounted low Inititive ship and give 100% board Knowledge turret rotation...

He is just bad design.

If 2.0 is anything like 1.0, then the heavy discount is only going to be the equivalent of 6 points today. More likely, it'll be the equivalent to 2-4 points for one of the other named pilots.

I'll eat my words if Luke turns out to be a dominating force for the first six months after release, but I strongly doubt that'll be the case.

4 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Again, no

I don't even know why I'm replying, except to say that a Fat Han with a stupid bid can act like a 1.0 turret, even if it's a really bad idea. The rest of what you wrote is correct.

I belive Luke is good design because it does something unique to him and reflects the lore of the force. Overall un 2.0

- You need an action to move your turret, unless you are Luke Skywalker

- You can only do 1 action a turn, unles you are Darth Vader

- You can't doble reposition, unless you are a Tie\in (or A-wing in a more limited way).

- You can't get focus and evade, unless you are a Tie Defender.

This things makes those ships / characters feel special because only they break the rules.

I do understand the concern that it has no counterplay, yet I do not share the fear that it would rule the meta and become a negative play experience for other players. As times goes on, and more powerful gunner options appear the oportunity cost of that slot would only increase. Ofcourse IF something is realeased down the line that provides more actionless modifications (ofensive or defensive) to stack with luke I could became a problem.

37 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

But you can counter Arc rotating at Initiative 6 by bringing your own I6 arc dodger and taking an initiative bid.

Counterplay is what makes strategic games fun.

Are you suggesting Gunner Luke won’t have counters? ?

7 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

Are you suggesting Gunner Luke won’t have counters? ?

The counter to luke is that it would be carried by an expensive ship with only 1 agi, and those things melt in front of numbers.

Luke is a future proof against higher initiative ships that could barrel roll and boost into your blind arc. Luke is a unique card, that will cost points to do what skilled players will be able to do without him, and guarantees that at least one turreted ship in your list doesn't need to be I6 to have a chance against Soontir arc dodging you consistently.

30 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

I don't even know why I'm replying, except to say that a Fat Han with a stupid bid can act like a 1.0 turret, even if it's a really bad idea. The rest of what you wrote is correct.

I understand the claim, but it's incorrect

You can't act like a 1.0 turret if there are actual decisions to make re: actions and actual consequences

Regardless of action, if you could shoot a 1.0 turret it could shoot you (rocks and Arvel excepted)

This does not hold true for I 6 Han, unless he has Luke gunner. Basically, he just can't compare to 1.0 turrets at all without Luke

you can dodge an I 6 han (without luke). he can be blocked, obstacled (overlap with template even), stressed, or now ioned and be stuck with a fixed arc
you cannot dodge a 1.0 turret, ever, barring some stupidly corner case scenarios

For a newbie, Gunner Luke is a crutch that rewards playing turrets as if they were NOT 1.0 turrets by giving mods if they play the way 2.0 wants to play. It makes bad playing not as bad, but makes good play better. Once the newbie learns to keep an enemy in arc WITHOUT luke, they can move up to better gunner upgrades.

3 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

I understand the claim, but it's incorrect

You can't act like a 1.0 turret if there are actual decisions to make re: actions and actual consequences

Regardless of action, if you could shoot a 1.0 turret it could shoot you (rocks and Arvel excepted)

This does not hold true for I 6 Han, unless he has Luke gunner. Basically, he just can't compare to 1.0 turrets at all without Luke

Ah, I see your distinction.

6 hours ago, LordFajubi said:

This actually makes sense too. If you want the fluff route that’s ANH Luke in that picture. He was no jedi at that point, no training and was basically using the force for luck not control. He should not regen ****.

I like these ideas, they could also do what they have done with Dace Bonearm, the rotate costs 3 charges and luke regens one per turn. Now the ability can only be used once every three turns.

They could even have it so only spending two charges allows you to rotate the arc at end of the engagement phase.

3 minutes ago, Scum4Life said:

I like these ideas, they could also do what they have done with Dace Bonearm, the rotate costs 3 charges and luke regens one per turn. Now the ability can only be used once every three turns.

They could even have it so only spending two charges allows you to rotate the arc at end of the engagement phase.

For it to work like Dace, he'd also have 3 force points to start. That doesn't feel like a good idea for other reasons.

2 minutes ago, Ixidor said:

For it to work like Dace, he'd also have 3 force points to start. That doesn't feel like a good idea for other reasons.

No force tokens this would use charge tokens, as LordFajubi said he (Luke) wasn't a proper force user at that point

1 minute ago, Scum4Life said:

No force tokens this would use charge tokens, as LordFajubi said he (Luke) wasn't a proper force user at that point

Ah, missed that. Yeah, that would be something.

3 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Luke is a crutch. Nothing more. It's really not that powerful, it uses established game mechanics (unlike 1.0 Biggs) and there is counterplay. It will be a waste for most experienced players, both in points and opportunity cost. It would only be helpful for new players who don't know how to hit anything, and they won't be elevated to godlike levels either. They'll just be able to get a few (probably unmodded) shots off before they die.

Yup, that sums it up pretty well.

After some thoughts I believe they might have created Luke because they got scared that with all the changes in 2.0 the game might get too difficult for beginners.

Now the newbies can buy the Falcon expansion (their most popular one), put Luke on Han, and play with their favorite characters and not get frustrated by the arc dodgers.

However if they print another decent gunner to put on Han, then Luke would become a sub-optimal choice for experienced player, since he would not really need to use the turret rotation ability that much.. (ie. the opportunity cost argument).

EDIT: hmm, now I see that this was already brought up on the previous page. Nevermind then :), but I think this is probably the best explanation for Luke crew existence..

Put me in the turrets are cancer camp, this is bad design as said before and hopefully it's not the final product because I was really looking forward to using squints again.

has anyone considered that Luke gunner may be intended to be a casual only card? They did say they could use the app to ban cards for competition. that may happen if the true intent is to have a PWT turret mechanic for beginners.

but why make him casual only when you could have a Luke that is both beginner friendly and potentially competitive without completely disregarding the 2.0 mission statement?

...like pilot Luke

14 minutes ago, PanchoX1 said:

has anyone considered that Luke gunner may be intended to be a casual only card? They did say they could use the app to ban cards for competition. that may happen if the true intent is to have a PWT turret mechanic for beginners.

I still honestly don't think Luke alone will be a problem with Han. There are going to be enough hard and soft counters to Han with Luke (swarms, reinforced tanks like the Firespray, Ghost or Decimator that win the dice trade, bullseye arcs that he can't dodge as well) that I'm just having a hard time seeing it being too dominant.

Though I'm also that worried about Soontir, considering his new pilot ability is a pretty big nerf compared to his old one.

4 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

Though I'm also that worried about Soontir, considering his new pilot ability is a pretty big nerf compared to his old one.

This is also my biggest worry so far for 2.0. The low-health aces seem to have taken a big hit with their reduced token stacking abilities, removed Autothursters and nerfed evade action.

All these changes are quite understandable and justified, because in 1.0 some of these top-efficient aces had also excellent jousting values, besides having great arc-dodging capabilities.

However they will need to be signifficantly cheaper in 2.0 to make them a competitive choice over a Defender..

But we have not seen everything yet, and a solid 1 or 2 upgrades (such as the 1.0 Autothrusters) could bring them back in force..

If most people agree that undercosted Gunner Luke would be OP but that he can also potentially be so expensive that he is trash, wouldn't that mean that there is likely a price point where Gunner Luke is balanced?