5 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

Han can already do this to every ship that isn’t PS9, lol. This is some ridiculous nitpicking.

no he cant in 2.0 because you can block/stress him... and if he does it costs an action without luke, with luke he does not care.

Its not nitpicking its a very different situation with luke gunner onboard.

9 minutes ago, Icelom said:

no he cant in 2.0 because you can block/stress him... and if he does it costs an action without luke, with luke he does not care.

Its not nitpicking its a very different situation with luke gunner onboard.

I’m sure a card equivalent to a free action comes MUCH cheaper than Luke. And you can still block whatever ship is carrying Luke onto a rock. Luke is a little better. But the situation for the ships fighting him isn’t radically different than most any other ship with 3-dice mobile arcs that has a higher initiative.

For an i1 TIE fighter an i2 y-wing ion turret is just as “game-breaking” as Luke. The TIE has to pick his arc. The Y-wing doesn’t.

3 minutes ago, Icelom said:

no he cant in 2.0 because you can block/stress him... and if he does it costs an action without luke, with luke he does not care.

Its not nitpicking its a very different situation with luke gunner onboard.

It still costs Han your Force point to do it with Luke, meaning you don't have that resource to use on offense or defense.

I really don't understand how people believe I 6 rotate action = gunner luke

if you play x-wing, you know how vital actions are

this is...I don't even know how many times more the case when you're an expensive ship that can arc dodge spectacularly with boost

and even if you make a false parallel of claiming Luke = just a free action, then you're missing out on how some ships can't shoot other ships with free actions if their arcs cannot be made to face the right way on a whim

and that, generally, you don't get a whole lot of pre-combat actions

and that...well, the (currently spoiled) Luke gunner isn't an action. Literally. this line of thought is just objectively wrong at the very most basic level (i.e Luke != action)

Just now, PhantomFO said:

It still costs Han your Force point to do it with Luke, meaning you don't have that resource to use on offense or defense.

If your argument is Luke's ability costs you the other half of Luke's benefit..

Not sure what to say to that.

2 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

I’m sure a card equivalent to a free action comes MUCH cheaper than Luke. And you can still block whatever ship is carrying Luke onto a rock. Luke is a little better. But the situation for the ships fighting him isn’t radically different than most any other ship with 3-dice mobile arcs.

A free action would be way better for the game. It's not Luke's action that's the problem, it's the timming window when it triggers that's the problem. And the fact you can't stop him from giving that free action.

If Luke was "after you successfully complete a manouver you can spend one force to move the turret" I would by 100% in favor of Luke.

Isn’t coordinate still a thing?

Even without Luke, with a HWK or U wing you’ll still be able to coordinate the turret.

As pointed out using Luke’s force token to rotate the turret is an opportunity cost.

I’m not so sure all this chicken littleism is well placed.

If Gunner-Luke's card is changed from:

At the beginning of the combat phase you can spend 1 force to rotate the pointer

to:

At the beginning of the combat phase you can spend 1 force to do the {Rotate Arc} action

Would that go a long way to make this less crappy? Now it's subject to stress at the very least?

19 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

You're never going to have a situation where every ship is equally strong against all other ships. That part is impossible, and you should just quit now if that's what you want out of 2.0.

Where 2.0 is getting back to basics is a return to the concept of "pillars."

Jousters are stronger against turrets through cost efficiency, especially since turrets can't arc-dodge as well in 2.0.

Turrets are stronger against arc-dodgers, since they can afford easier coverage.

Arc-dodgers are stronger against jousters thanks to more repositioning options.

It seems silly to worry that Luke is what breaks the game for arc dodgers, since we still have ships in the game with full 180-degree firing arcs.

Its not about being equally strong. It's about having a chance. If a game presents an unsolvable puzzle, nobody will play the game. I will hand you a single 6 sided die, and say "If you roll a 7 I will give you $1 million". How many times are you going to roll that die? Now, if I said "If you can roll a 6 ten times in a row I will give you $1 million" You now know there is a chance, and if you have 5 or 10 minutes of free time, might just give it a shot.

Would people play the lottery if there was a 0% chance of winning? 1 in 100,000,000 and millions of people play. But what about if it was 0%?

Are you going to fly an arc dodger with 0% chance to dodge arcs? Without autothrusters and evades being nerfed? There is no reason to fly a 3 hull interceptor over a 6+ hull jouster defender if you cant dodge an arc. EVERY TIME your interceptor faces Luke Gunner, EVERY TIME, 0% chance to dodge an arc. 0% chance. EVERY TIME you see that Luke Gunner staring across the table from you, you WILL GET SHOT AT EVERY ROUND. Doesnt matter if I bring a ship that puts 5 stress on Han, or 20 academies to block him. I get shot, EVERY ROUND.

Luke = bad game design.

It’s roughly quivalent to an action because it saves you spending an action to move your arcs. Calm down, son.

1 minute ago, BlodVargarna said:

Isn’t coordinate still a thing?

Even without Luke, with a HWK or U wing you’ll still be able to coordinate the turret.

As pointed out using Luke’s force token to rotate the turret is an opportunity cost.

I’m not so sure all this chicken littleism is well placed.

-Can't cordinaur at the start of combat

- can block/stress coordinate.

Luke + coordinate now gives a full 360arc with double mods.

2 minutes ago, Icelom said:

If your argument is Luke's ability costs you the other half of Luke's benefit..

Not sure what to say to that.

A free action would be way better for the game. It's not Luke's action that's the problem, it's the timming window when it triggers that's the problem. And the fact you can't stop him from giving that free action.

If Luke was "after you successfully complete a manouver you can spend one force to move the turret" I would by 100% in favor of Luke.

The timing window is identical to an i2 arc rotation for an academy TIE. If you’re rotating your arc at i6, then you’re already doing what Luke does to almost every ship in the game. Luke just does it a little better.

Oh my god guys, you're terrible. You're like a set of generals sat around the conference table, talking about how scary this picture of a new weapon is - but technically the weapon isn't built yet. And you don't even know what it goes with - it's just a freaking picture. All the other strategic and tactical information is absent.

First, a stated design goal for 2.0 is to bring the Force as a powerful tool to the game - typically it seems to involve "actionless" actions. Luke does that. He's the Force with a dramatic effect on the table.

Now, is Luke baby tier easy to use? Looking at it in a vacuum, yes. And it does run countering to the seeming intent of the turret change, though again, vacuum, we don't know much about other upgrades to support turrets. Or upgrades which interact with turrets in general but imma circle back around to that. Fundamentally, Luke gets you on target. Technically, any number of upgrades or design choices allow this to other ships, though at the moment (again, vacuum!) Luke is the perfectest informationiest. He does this, and you can also maybe evade for defense mods, or maybe boost to get something else positional out of it. But, this is still only him getting a shot on you - which only actually does something if he wasn't getting a shot on you, which depends a lot on the ships you're using. Skill floor to use Luke is low, but a decent player can probably get your, say, Lambda in arc if they wanted with just a boost or rotate. And there are plenty of little extra repositions or links which means other ships could do this and also theoretically have a token. Okay, so the Lambda probably isn't your primary damage dealer (unless classic doomshuttle type builds return) but it's still a 3 ATK ship which is probably carrying your support muscle, like say a Palp regenerating force tokens he can spend to give your other, nastier ships actionless mod wooj at a distance to avoid G-Luke's probably unmoded on-target shot? Either way, your Lambda's probably not getting out of the shot anyway. But that's not something Luke actually changed, so from the perspective of the Lambda, all Luke does is waste resources to do something you should assume the opponent can manage without him.

Now, let us move on from that, to my earlier point about interaction. We know very little about 2E right now. Okay, we know a lot about the basics - we've seen basically every ship's start point, and we know most of the basic mechanisms. But there's hundreds of cards we have yet to see, and many individual pilots. There is a LOT of interaction with Green Tokens from what we've seen. Ways to make opponents lose them, or be forced to lose them and take other badness. We have no knowledge on, but should assume there will probably be similar sorts of interaction with blue and purple tokens. Any kind of ability to prevent the spending of a force token, or to discard say, a single token (at the right trigger), or not recover a token this turn, would not just severely hamper luke (who is probably quite expensive) but any number of nasty force upgrades. Which means it's not specific counterplay to luke, but just in general all these potent new force abilities. And this is also not unreasonable if it also comes with a cost (like say, itself being a Force upgrade to spend a token to counter a token).

And similarly, we don't know enough about the new turrets. There's whole new slot which seems focused around arcs, we've seen 1 generic upgrade for it w/ Turrets, and only a couple of one faction's uniques. There's loads of mechanics which relate to forward arcs, rear arcs, bullseye arcs - there will probably be loads which interact with mobile/turreted arcs. Some will probably be defensive or designed to give you a little extra when you engage with or from the mobile arc, just like Concordia Faceoff gives you a little something if you're going face-to-face with someone. (Alternatively, some play will be about NOT being in that frontal zone). Plus, since we don't know about turret interaction options, we have no idea about opportunity cost to use luke. As @ClassicalMoser said, we already know gunner Han is pretty potent, he lets you snap off two shots which if you're good with the arcs will be better than just one shot.

I totally get the concern, but there's way too much hand-wringing right now on a subject when all we know about it is enough to hurt ourselves.

(Ah, who am I kidding? This is the X-Wing forum. Everybody go back to shouting about how this new soviet weapon will make the sky fall on us, we have to nuke 2.0 before they can use it!)

3 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

The timing window is identical to an i2 arc rotation for an academy TIE. If you’re rotating your arc at i6, then you’re already doing what Luke does to almost every ship in the game. Luke just does it a little better.

Luke does not have to go on an I6 han he can go on a heavily discounted low Inititive ship and give 100% board Knowledge turret rotation...

He is just bad design.

7 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

Isn’t coordinate still a thing?

Even without Luke, with a HWK or U wing you’ll still be able to coordinate the turret.

As pointed out using Luke’s force token to rotate the turret is an opportunity cost.

I’m not so sure all this chicken littleism is well placed.

sure it is

in fact, let me dig out my pre-combat coordinate ship so I can rotate the mobile arc at range 0-2 of the ship I bought specifically just to rotate my falcon's arc at the start of the engagement phase, which is thus far literally impossible because nothing revealed coordinates at that stage of the game

4 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

The timing window is identical to an i2 arc rotation for an academy TIE. If you’re rotating your arc at i6, then you’re already doing what Luke does to almost every ship in the game. Luke just does it a little better.

no it's not, because it occurs after you've boosted/maneuvered and potentially bumped/stressed/obstacled

Inquisitor (crew) has a far more reasonable timing window

3 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

Oh my god guys, you're terrible. You're like a set of generals sat around the conference table, talking about how scary this picture of a new weapon is - but technically the weapon isn't built yet. And you don't even know what it goes with - it's just a freaking picture. All the other strategic and tactical information is absent.

First, a stated design goal for 2.0 is to bring the Force as a powerful tool to the game - typically it seems to involve "actionless" actions. Luke does that. He's the Force with a dramatic effect on the table.

Now, is Luke baby tier easy to use? Looking at it in a vacuum, yes. And it does run countering to the seeming intent of the turret change, though again, vacuum, we don't know much about other upgrades to support turrets. Or upgrades which interact with turrets in general but imma circle back around to that. Fundamentally, Luke gets you on target. Technically, any number of upgrades or design choices allow this to other ships, though at the moment (again, vacuum!) Luke is the perfectest informationiest. He does this, and you can also maybe evade for defense mods, or maybe boost to get something else positional out of it. But, this is still only him getting a shot on you - which only actually does something if he wasn't getting a shot on you, which depends a lot on the ships you're using. Skill floor to use Luke is low, but a decent player can probably get your, say, Lambda in arc if they wanted with just a boost or rotate. And there are plenty of little extra repositions or links which means other ships could do this and also theoretically have a token. Okay, so the Lambda probably isn't your primary damage dealer (unless classic doomshuttle type builds return) but it's still a 3 ATK ship which is probably carrying your support muscle, like say a Palp regenerating force tokens he can spend to give your other, nastier ships actionless mod wooj at a distance to avoid G-Luke's probably unmoded on-target shot? Either way, your Lambda's probably not getting out of the shot anyway. But that's not something Luke actually changed, so from the perspective of the Lambda, all Luke does is waste resources to do something you should assume the opponent can manage without him.

Now, let us move on from that, to my earlier point about interaction. We know very little about 2E right now. Okay, we know a lot about the basics - we've seen basically every ship's start point, and we know most of the basic mechanisms. But there's hundreds of cards we have yet to see, and many individual pilots. There is a LOT of interaction with Green Tokens from what we've seen. Ways to make opponents lose them, or be forced to lose them and take other badness. We have no knowledge on, but should assume there will probably be similar sorts of interaction with blue and purple tokens. Any kind of ability to prevent the spending of a force token, or to discard say, a single token (at the right trigger), or not recover a token this turn, would not just severely hamper luke (who is probably quite expensive) but any number of nasty force upgrades. Which means it's not specific counterplay to luke, but just in general all these potent new force abilities. And this is also not unreasonable if it also comes with a cost (like say, itself being a Force upgrade to spend a token to counter a token).

And similarly, we don't know enough about the new turrets. There's whole new slot which seems focused around arcs, we've seen 1 generic upgrade for it w/ Turrets, and only a couple of one faction's uniques. There's loads of mechanics which relate to forward arcs, rear arcs, bullseye arcs - there will probably be loads which interact with mobile/turreted arcs. Some will probably be defensive or designed to give you a little extra when you engage with or from the mobile arc, just like Concordia Faceoff gives you a little something if you're going face-to-face with someone. (Alternatively, some play will be about NOT being in that frontal zone). Plus, since we don't know about turret interaction options, we have no idea about opportunity cost to use luke. As @ClassicalMoser said, we already know gunner Han is pretty potent, he lets you snap off two shots which if you're good with the arcs will be better than just one shot.

I totally get the concern, but there's way too much hand-wringing right now on a subject when all we know about it is enough to hurt ourselves.

(Ah, who am I kidding? This is the X-Wing forum. Everybody go back to shouting about how this new soviet weapon will make the sky fall on us, we have to nuke 2.0 before they can use it!)

I am going to have my opinion and I am going to discuss it. No rant from you will stop me.

9 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

I really don't understand how people believe I 6 rotate action = gunner luke

It's more that the relative gains for an I6 pilot are lower than for others. At which point there might be a better gunner option or a Luke crew you want instead in that race for efficiency.

3 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

It's more that the relative gains for an I6 pilot are lower than for others. At which point there might be a better gunner option or a Luke crew you want instead in that race for efficiency.

it most certainly is not

the relative gains for an I6 pilot are higher because 1.) you shoot first and can ps kill (I-kill sounds weird) and 2.) you can boost without consequences because it is no longer competing with your rotate mobile arc action

hey, it's almost exactly like 1.0 turrets!

it's also funny that every time someone compares Luke gunner to something reasonable, it only further illustrates just how unreasonable it actually is

2 minutes ago, Icelom said:

I am going to Rant and I am going to discuss it. No opinion from you will stop me.

FTFY

It doesn’t need to be overpowered to be unfun. Not having to postion your arc like every other ship in the game does turns the game back into a dice rolling combo game again.

I have a feeling FFG intentionally designed Luke this way as a crutch for new players to lean on so they don’t get completely curbstomped by arc dodgers in 2.0.

OK to everyone who says there's no counterplay:

Valen Rudor (in a Defender, no less!)

Sloane Shuttle + Swarm

Dengar

All of these would eat Han/Luke's lunch. You want to kill my TIEs? Take two stress. Oh, you're shooting at my wing mate? I'll just roll out of the way here. I think there's going to be a lot more combat-phase repositioning available to aces, which DOES make a distinction between Luke's ability and old PWTs

I'm sure there are more.

6 minutes ago, Icelom said:

Luke does not have to go on an I6 han he can go on a heavily discounted low Inititive ship and give 100% board Knowledge turret rotation...

He is just bad design.

Ok. But what he is doing isn’t really different than what Han can do by himself. You can hatebthe design all you want, but the idea that Gunner Luke is the only one doing this is preposterous. There’s only like 6 more pilots that Luke works on that Han can’t already do it to them.

2 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

It doesn’t need to be overpowered to be unfun. Not having to postion your arc like every other ship in the game does turns the game back into a dice rolling combo game again.

I have a feeling FFG intentionally designed Luke this way as a crutch for new players to lean on so they don’t get completely curbstomped by arc dodgers in 2.0.

Eh, I don't share this view. I think ffg did a dumb regardless of new players. I think someone just brainfarted so hard that the stains magically resembled an upgrade card

As I brought up before, Luke pilot is already a perfect beginner ship

And with Sense (force--powered super Intel agent) he can also counter higher I arcdodgers

6 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

no it's not, because it occurs after you've boosted/maneuvered and potentially bumped/stressed/obstacled

You’re disagreeing with yourself here, man. Take a couple months off and settle down a bit before you get banned again. It’s probably going to stick this time.

2 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

Ok. But what he is doing isn’t really different than what Han can do by himself. You can hatebthe design all you want, but the idea that Gunner Luke is the only one doing this is preposterous. There’s only like 6 more pilots that Luke works on that Han can’t already do it to them.

But you can counter Arc rotating at Initiative 6 by bringing your own I6 arc dodger and taking an initiative bid.

Counterplay is what makes strategic games fun.

3 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

You’re disagreeing with yourself here, man. Take a couple months off and settle down a bit before you get banned again. It’s probably going to stick this time.

I am not disagreeing with myself

The timing for the rotate action v gunner Luke is off (because it completely circumvents all limitations of standard actions) failed to account for that

And I know your arguements aren't holding any water, but I don't think that necessitates bringing up a naughty language temp ban I got a long time ago on the Armada forums