1 minute ago, Commander Kaine said:

Which means you haven't boosted.

You don't need to as you can just move your arc to fire at the start of activation.

2 minutes ago, Icelom said:

It's not going to "ruin the game" itsjust going to make a bunch of ships not viable. A generic a-wing or interceptor will have a single token and no 1.0 autothrusters and will just die amount other ships, with 0 hope of out flying the Luke gunner player.

Rebellions are built on hope.

Why are you comparing a single generic to a turreted ship? If the Turret ship had initiative on the generic A-Wing or Interceptor, it would get a shot anyway. Yes, it will be able to mod with Luke, but that’s still not a guarantee. Plus, that little A-Wing or Interceptor shouldn’t be alone. To be equivalent to a Falcon with Luke Gunner, you are looking at multiple A-Wings for the same point value. Heck, old Fat Han was in the sixty point range, which can translate to about 4 prototype pilots with the Refit. But comparing one arcdodger to a more expensive Turret isn’t equivalent.

2 minutes ago, AlexW said:

I actually think that's all it takes. Single ships have always been enough to warp the meta, especially if it's going to be a mechanic that is available nowhere else.

But it was always a combination of factors. Reliable modifications were always part of it, and the new fat han gets defensive rerolls with the evade token, offensive rerolls next to obstacles (skill dependent!). But he can‘t have defensive rerolls AND a focus, and he needs the force token to rotate. One attack with one mod has never been enough.

Just now, Icelom said:

Because you can competitivly show up with a generic interceptor because Luke gunner might show up as well.

The thing is, there isn't a huge increase to Han with Luke. An non-Luke Fat Han would still do very similar things to generics as he still moves and rotates with perfect information. I'm a bit more worried for Luke with Dash or someone else who doesn't have I6.

Well the thing that hurt most of these low hp, high agility ships was gunner. Han with gunner Luke will get to make his shot, but just the one. Old gunner practically guaranteed damage by burning tokens while Han still got mods

6 minutes ago, Incard said:

Millenium Falcon title also grants a defensive reroll if you have an evade token.

So, for their 1 green evade due....IF they have an Evade...they get a reroll? Hardly the stuff of legends.

The issue is not just particular card combos and potential weakness or counterplay.

Luke Gunner as spoiled is bad design. Bad and dumb and scary. If the designers don't know any better, my $ stays in my pocket.

Can anyone make an argument of why the game should allow a turret to rotate at the start of combat regardless of stress, bump, or Initiative? Anyone able to make that sound like a good piece of game design?

3 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

The thing is, there isn't a huge increase to Han with Luke. An non-Luke Fat Han would still do very similar things to generics as he still moves and rotates with perfect information. I'm a bit more worried for Luke with Dash or someone else who doesn't have I6.

I don't think dash will have a Gunner slot.

The firespray doesn't have one (a title adds it), and it would be a nice way to differentiate between the two ships.

The falcon has 3 dice and a Gunner.

The outrider has 4 dice and no gunner

8 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

The thing is, there isn't a huge increase to Han with Luke. An non-Luke Fat Han would still do very similar things to generics as he still moves and rotates with perfect information. I'm a bit more worried for Luke with Dash or someone else who doesn't have I6.

Costs an action, can be blocked, can be stressed, can be counterplayed.

Can a single person defending Luke gunner give a a reason why he should be in the game and good game design? (Besides just stating he is not overpowered)

7 minutes ago, Icelom said:

Blocking Luke gunner does nothing... That is the problem.

Nothing?

- You know where he will be to get all your ships with optimal shots.

-Falcon title does nothing as you don't have an Evade.

-Prevent Han from being R1 near an obstacle

- No Boosting

- No offensive Modifier

- No defensive modifier...as the opponent knows where you will be.

5 minutes ago, Incard said:

Millenium Falcon title also grants a defensive reroll if you have an evade token.

You also have to look at how many token removal tricks there are now. Jam is now on a variety of ships, pilots and crew like Vader and Ventress basically say “get rid of a green token or bad stuff happens to you”. And that’s just scratching the surface. Palob is still out there, Old Teroch is around, Torani is likely still in the game. Jax too.

There are plenty of ways to deny that MF reroll.

Just now, Commander Kaine said:

I don't think dash will have a Gunner slot.

The firespray doesn't have one (a title adds it), and it would be a nice way to differentiate between the two ships.

The falcon has 3 dice and a Gunner.

The outrider has 4 dice and no gunner

Yep, that's my thinking as well. Fingers crossed!

Just now, heychadwick said:

Nothing?

- You know where he will be to get all your ships with optimal shots.

-Falcon title does nothing as you don't have an Evade.

-Prevent Han from being R1 near an obstacle

- No Boosting

- No offensive Modifier

- No defensive modifier...as the opponent knows where you will be.

Blocking Luke gunner... All the normal ship blocking **** applied, you can just never stop him from moving his arc no matter how good you are.

46 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

2.0 didn't even hit the shelves and bunch of nerf herders already cry about assumed broken cards. Unreal.
As I said those people will always be mad at something - game is bad as long it does not cater to their tastes all the time.

...and simply complaining about those discussing concerns is assisting what exactly?

44 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

False parallel. Not only do the yts NOT have shadow caster arcs, but shadow caster arcs got nerfed. Your mobile arc positioning is going to matter a lot and you will need to severly outplay the opponent to always get a good shot on the target you want

...except with gunner Luke

This is the only point, this shouldn't exist in 2.0, even if it is our beloved Luke. (gameplay > fluff)

43 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

You're becoming incredibly proficient at missing the point, @ficklegreendice...

I think @ficklegreendice is making this simple point very well. I see your statement @FTS Gecko actually referring directly to the contrary debate.

25 minutes ago, Icelom said:

Actually I am pretty pro x-wing and defended basically everything in 1.0. (I did not even think the jumpmaster should be nerfed, as you could counterplay it). But I think Luke gunner is a massive mistake. He has 0 counterplay.

This.

Therefore, if 2.0 is to be clear of 1.0 problems (ie the worst offender: 360 TURRETS), then Luke is NOT good for the game, regardless his cost or usability in tournament meta. This is very, very simplistic logic. Easy.

1 minute ago, Icelom said:

Costs an action, can be blocked, can be stressed, can be counterplayed.

Sure, it's obviously a really nice bonus. It's just not giving that much of a bonus for a skilled player that taking a bid and just flying well with another good gunner upgrade wouldn't do. I'd almost see Luke's spare Force token being as valuable to Han as his gunner ability. To other pilots it's probably the reverse.

Just now, Icelom said:

Blocking Luke gunner... All the normal ship blocking **** applied, you can just never stop him from moving his arc no matter how good you are.

Yeah, but my point is.....that is not that powerful. He gets to shoot. 3 dice. Only rerolling 1 die if near an obstacle. Hardly game breaking.

People are saying Tie Interceptors will be useless because Luke will always give a 3 die attack that MIGHT have some modification.

7 minutes ago, Icelom said:

Can a single person defending Luke gunner give a a reason why he should be in the game and good game design? (Besides just stating he is not overpowered)

I already did:

"An easy to play, low floor low ceiling ship allows newer, worse players to play along with an iconic combination.

It should be good enough to allow new players to play along, but bad enough that a better player can‘t exploit it. The dynamic cost allows exactly that."

Please let me know where you disagree?

1 minute ago, heychadwick said:

Yeah, but my point is.....that is not that powerful. He gets to shoot. 3 dice. Only rerolling 1 die if near an obstacle. Hardly game breaking.

People are saying Tie Interceptors will be useless because Luke will always give a 3 die attack that MIGHT have some modification.

Then just explain to me why he should be in the game? and why he is good game design? (Its irrelevant if you think he is powerful or not)

7 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Yeah, but my point is.....that is not that powerful. He gets to shoot. 3 dice. Only rerolling 1 die if near an obstacle. Hardly game breaking.

It doesn't matter in my mind.

Fact: 360 turrets are 1.0 cancer.

Fact: (as we understand it) Luke creates a virtual 360 turret regardless of counter-play attempts.

Fact: Therefore Luke's cancer.

Opinion: It matters not if he's great or easy to kill, he breaks the rules.

Fact: He breaks one of FFG's stated design rules for 2.0.

Fact: If the above is true: Luke should be revised so he is not automatic, but has REAL counterplay.

Just now, Icelom said:

Then just explain to me why he should be in the game? and why he is good game design? (Its irrelevant if you think he is powerful or not)

High floor, potentially low ceiling depending on point cost thematic ship for newer players? If Luke costs 24 points, for example, he'll buff the Falcon considerably, but the Falcon will lose a ton of point efficiency. That's a whole ship.

Just now, GreenDragoon said:

I already did:

"An easy to play, low floor low ceiling ship allows newer, worse players to play along with an iconic combination.

It should be good enough to allow new players to play along, but bad enough that a better player can‘t exploit it. The dynamic cost allows exactly that."

Please let me know where you disagree?

How can a better player not exploit it? I cant block a better player and stop it, i cant stress a better player and stop it, i cant outfly a better player and stop it.

By the same argument, a weaker player has 0 chance to do anything against it the same as a good player. If i am a new player and bring my new shinny a-wing arc dodger out against a good player running luke gunner, and he/she casually informs me that I have 0% chance to ever arc dodge his ship that's good game design to you?

2 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Fact: 360 turrets is 1.0 cancer.

I feel like the plural is the important part there.

1 minute ago, Icelom said:

Then just explain to me why he should be in the game? and why he is good game design? (Its irrelevant if you think he is powerful or not)

Everyone seems upset about the game design aspect. Luke breaks a cardinal rule. To me, he's Luke freakin' Skywalker. I expect him to be powerful. To me, that's irrelevant. Hes there.

What matters to me is how it affects the game. I don't care if it's good game design or not or if it should be allowed in the game....from a philosophical perspective. Does it break the game? If not, I'm good. I don't think it does.

1 minute ago, Icelom said:

How can a better player not exploit it? I cant block a better player and stop it, i cant stress a better player and stop it, i cant outfly a better player and stop it.

How do you stop it currently? Let's face it, if we do have a few months of Fat Han being the hot list again, we're all going to be well placed with experience to be able to deal with him.

5 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

It doesn't matter in my mind.

Fact: 360 turrets are 1.0 cancer.

Fact: (as we understand it) Luke creates a virtual 360 turret regardless of counter-play attempts.

Fact: Therefore Luke's cancer.

Opinion: It matters not if he's great or easy to kill, he breaks the rules.

Fact: He breaks one of FFG's stated design rules for 2.0.

Fact: If the above is true: Luke should be revised so he is not automatic, but has REAL counterplay.

Why did we never see WSF or Eaden Vrill on the field if PWTs are so cancerous? Did anybody ever let out a groan when they saw those ships across the way?

The mechanic itself is fine. The mechanic being cheaply accessible was always the issue.