I get the feeling this is the disconnect some people are missing. Certainly this does not apply to everyone in the discussion but certainly some who have chimed in.

A Mobile Arc is Not a Turret.

Turrets by rule as defined from 1.0 could shoot out of arc. Mobile Arcs are just that. An Arc that is not fixed that can change the direction in which a ship can shoot when moved around.

So one reason no one is talking about Luke (Gunner) on Miranda is she is a 2/3 primary weapon, on a medium base, where as the YT’s are 3/4 on a large base. So the Arc covers a massive area with a large base.

Also some people have not been accounting for the free action in a setup where actions are at an even bigger premium compared to what they were in 1.0.

I mentioned Earlier Luke vs Echo with Outmaneuver. Look at what happens if we give the Ship with Luke Outmaneuver. Luke’s ship maneuvers and either is not in Arc of the attacker or has use an action to avoid the opposing ships arc. Luke the at the beginning of the engagement rotates the Mobile Arc to face a ship he is not in Arc of. This turned the Mobile Arc ship into a more effective Wedge. Then it gets Magnified if the ship Luke is on doesn’t have to move the Arc because you can use the better of the modifiers based on your roll.

So again, in a vacuum or just by himself Luke isn’t earth shatteringly bad. Start pairing Luke with all the other upgrades and combinations and you start to see the abuse he could create.

48 minutes ago, Ronu said:

Look at what happens if we give the Ship with Luke Outmaneuver. Luke’s ship maneuvers and either is not in Arc of the attacker or has use an action to avoid the opposing ships arc. Luke the at the beginning of the engagement rotates the Mobile Arc to face a ship he is not in Arc of. This turned the Mobile Arc ship into a more effective Wedge.

Outmaneuver only works out of a forward primary arc.

You can't use it when shooting out of a mobile arc. Luke Gunner can block someone else's use of Outmaneuever against his ship, but he can't be used to gain any direct benefits from it.

13 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

It's an uphill fight for the arcdodger, sure, but depending on the rest of the lists not an unwinnable one.

Meanwhile the Leebo/Luke list gets destroyed by 2.0 HLC Bwings.

I hope you're right about HLC. It will be interesting to see how bullseye arc HLC plays out. I've flow Kimogilas extensively & the only time you reliably line things up is against large base ships. They really are a huge target for that narrow arc. It could be reasonable to assume the many bullseye arc upgrades as effective anti-large base tech. Which is a great thing.

4 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

No, that's not how mobile arcs work

If you rotate, you can't boost/evade/TL/focus w.e. it's also an action, meaning it can be stopped by overlapping obstacles/ships, ion, and stress

If you gunner Luke, you do what you want without thought or consequences.

It is NOT the same as high I + bid, and I don't know how people can confuse the two.

I totally get that. Hence my comment on action efficiency. But you also lose a dice mod by spending the force token to rotate the arc, so can work both ways.

I just can't see him displacing other gunners in most builds. He doesn't sit in a vacuum, you are giving something up to improve some matchups.

I also don't think moving arcs will be something needed that often. Certainly wasn't with Asajj.

31 minutes ago, Roundy1161 said:

I totally get that. Hence my comment on action efficiency. But you also lose a dice mod by spending the force token to rotate the arc, so can work both ways.

I just can't see him displacing other gunners in most builds. He doesn't sit in a vacuum, you are giving something up to improve some matchups.

I also don't think moving arcs will be something needed that often. Certainly wasn't with Asajj.

Keeping them next to each other makes it significantly easier.

38 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

Keeping them next to each other makes it significantly easier.

Any shot that wasn't in the mobile arc was a bad shot for Asajj anyways, since all her control only works in that arc. Latts crew relies on it to generate evades. Etc.

My prediction is that a lot of people find out that double side arcs is really easy to keep on target for any ship with a decent ability to turn, as long as you can live with range 2 shots.

10 hours ago, Freeptop said:

There actually is a difference. In 2.0, crew R2-D2 requires the ship to be damaged and have no shields in order to use the ability, while 1.0 crew R2-D2 only required no shields. It's a minor difference, but it does mean there are fewer times the ability will be useable, and it will always carry risk, unlike the 1.0 version, which didn't need to care about rolling a hit if it recovered a shield with no damage on the ship.

One day I'll learn to read what a card does, not what I think the card does. But today is not that day.

16 hours ago, __underscore__ said:

One day I'll learn to read what a card does, not what I think the card does. But today is not that day.

Honestly, it's a subtle difference that's easy to miss if you don't go through and cross-reference the two versions against each other like I did. If I'd been going solely off of memory, I definitely would have thought they were the same!

Kinda feel like Luke Gunner would have been a bit more balanced if he could only rotate the arc by one section. So if Dash had the arc forward and you were behind him, Luke would only be able to turn the arc to the left or right this turn, not a complete 180 no scope.

Would have made for some interesting counter play i reckon.

Or would that have been a complete NPE for the Mobile Arc ship user?

2 minutes ago, Viktus106 said:

Kinda feel like Luke Gunner would have been a bit more balanced if he could only rotate the arc by one section. So if Dash had the arc forward and you were behind him, Luke would only be able to turn the arc to the left or right this turn, not a complete 180 no scope.

Would have made for some interesting counter play i reckon.

Or would that have been a complete NPE for the Mobile Arc ship user?

The YT1300 and YT2400 have both a double arc, so they can only ever move by one anyway.

9 minutes ago, Viktus106 said:

Kinda feel like Luke Gunner would have been a bit more balanced if he could only rotate the arc by one section. So if Dash had the arc forward and you were behind him, Luke would only be able to turn the arc to the left or right this turn, not a complete 180 no scope.

I'm guessing that you have somehow missed the fact that the Outrider and the Falcon have 'bowtie' arcs that point both front and back or right and left. The rotate action only needs to move the arc 1 quadrant to cover all possibly angles.

EDIT: Luke is fine and people should calm the heck down.

4 minutes ago, Aaron Foss said:

I'm guessing that you have somehow missed the fact that the Outrider and the Falcon have 'bowtie' arcs that point both front and back or right and left. The rotate action only needs to move the arc 1 quadrant to cover all possibly angles.

EDIT: Luke is fine and people should calm the heck down.

I keep forgetting that. I am too used to the Y wings having only a single rotating arc as well as the shadow caster.

After a good deal more reflection, I find I still disagree with the designers. I think I understand their intentions but I think they are missing the mark. I get that Luke-G is supposed to be a "beginner" card that helps newer players learn the ropes and not get punished by higher skill (and higher initiative) pilots. But that helps in exactly one case: new player with Luke-G against a more experienced player with repositional Aces. What about a new player with Aces against a more experienced player with Luke-G? Or most importantly two new players with only one bringing along Luke-G?

Imagine Remember the frustration of gradually realizing that no matter what you do, no matter how you fly, you cannot ever dodge the arc of a turret. Ever. There is no counter play. None. There is literally no choice you can make in the game that will allow you to shoot without getting shot back. Your only chance of finding an advantage is already long past in the list building phase of the game. This is the experience we want for new players sitting across from a turret in 2nd ed? Again? Yes, it's frustrating to spend the whole game and never get to shoot because you can't get an opponent in arc. But it's also frustrating to never, ever be able to dodge an arc. No. Matter. What. Luke-G will ruin the fun for just as many new players as he will save it. And losing because you got outflown is not the same as losing because you came with the wrong cards. One leads to (hopefully) buckling down and getting better at planning dials. The other leads to X-wing the Gathering or just walking away.

The designers should know better. And frankly, so should the players.

17 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

The designers should know better. And frankly, so should the players.

This can only be said to few times.

Allowing Luke (or any other card) to completely invalidate good flying, by letting the turret get redirected in the combat phase is pure and utter idiocy

So he costs 30 points.

Say a beginner player is playing dash Luke-G agaist another beginner player playing Dash that costs the same but instead of having Luke he has Lone Wolf, Perspective CO pilot and Ezra-G. Are all of you who are saying Luke will break the game telling me that that won't be fair!?!

Player 1 can shoot everytime sure but Player 2 will be able to shoot most goes with Sooooo many more mods it's more then balanced.

So if this doesn't prove that it's all down to points then nothing will for all we know you could have another outrider for the same point cost as luke.

Now the bigger problem which I can kinda understand is arc dodging aces but the reason I still think Luke is fine is because again say

1 hour ago, gamblertuba said:

There is no counter play.

All day but there is and always will be it's just the answer will no longer be arc dodging instead of dodging Dash get range 1 with 3 Scum Fenns or put torps/missles on your aces to take Luke out before he can shoot at you every turn as a famous person once said "they can't shoot do their dead" dont ask who said that ?

22 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

After a good deal more reflection, I find I still disagree with the designers. I think I understand their intentions but I think they are missing the mark. I get that Luke-G is supposed to be a "beginner" card that helps newer players learn the ropes and not get punished by higher skill (and higher initiative) pilots. But that helps in exactly one case: new player with Luke-G against a more experienced player with repositional Aces. What about a new player with Aces against a more experienced player with Luke-G? Or most importantly two new players with only one bringing along Luke-G?

Imagine Remember the frustration of gradually realizing that no matter what you do, no matter how you fly, you cannot ever dodge the arc of a turret. Ever. There is no counter play. None. There is literally no choice you can make in the game that will allow you to shoot without getting shot back. Your only chance of finding an advantage is already long past in the list building phase of the game. This is the experience we want for new players sitting across from a turret in 2nd ed? Again? Yes, it's frustrating to spend the whole game and never get to shoot because you can't get an opponent in arc. But it's also frustrating to never, ever be able to dodge an arc. No. Matter. What. Luke-G will ruin the fun for just as many new players as he will save it. And losing because you got outflown is not the same as losing because you came with the wrong cards. One leads to (hopefully) buckling down and getting better at planning dials. The other leads to X-wing the Gathering or just walking away.

The designers should know better. And frankly, so should the players.

Keep in mind that you're paying out the butt for this ability-- it's 15 1.0 points to get this capability. The return on investment for a new player is significant. The return on investment for an experienced player is 30 points for what amounts to a free Calculate. Not a great investment.

4 minutes ago, Dengars Toilet Paper said:

Let's assume he will cost a lot.?

Assume? We already know he's 30 points or so at release.

47 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

Keep in mind that you're paying out the butt for this ability-- it's 15 1.0 points to get this capability. The return on investment for a new player is significant. The return on investment for an experienced player is 30 points for what amounts to a free Calculate. Not a great investment.

I don't get this line of thinking that 'oh, a good player will always have arc anyway", as if they were playing against a brick that couldn't take any advantage of the fact that you CAN dodge a mobile arc while it is LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE to dodge gunner Luke

Why do people keep bringing up his cost? There is no correct cost for his ability. This ability is inherently unbalanced regardless of cost.

The devs ****** this one up, let's just hope they over price him so that he just becomes a dead card.

1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

I don't get this line of thinking that 'oh, a good player will always have arc anyway", as if they were playing against a brick that couldn't take any advantage of the fact that you CAN dodge a mobile arc while it is LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE to dodge gunner Luke

Do you agree that less frequent use of arc rotation means worse usage of the whole 30 points?

3 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

Why do people keep bringing up his cost? There is no correct cost for his ability. This ability is inherently unbalanced regardless of cost.

The devs ****** this one up, let's just hope they over price him so that he just becomes a dead card.

Against a tie swarm he will do nothing.

Against jousting lists he will do nothing.

30 points to counter aces is pretty high ngl

25 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Do you agree that less frequent use of arc rotation means worse usage of the whole 30 points?

I agree that a player better able to abuse high I, large nase repositioning will milk the **** out of LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE to avoid shots

Like they've been doing for all of 1.0

23 minutes ago, Dengars Toilet Paper said:

Against a tie swarm he will do nothing.

Against jousting lists he will do nothing.

30 points to counter aces is pretty high ngl

Another quote for the "horrible design is okay because it's so abhorrently overpriced it won't see play. Boy I'm glad ffg used such an iconic character for this utterly necessary upgrade that i believe won't see play!"jar

9 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

I agree that a player better able to abuse high I, large nase repositioning will milk the **** out of LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE to avoid shots 

Like they've been doing for all of 1.0 

So you agree that making less frequent use of the rotation mechanic means at some point* that player would rather have taken another gunner and saved 20+ points.

Then you also understand that line of thinking you first thought you don‘t get, and even better, you share it!

*Now all we have to figure out is how often do you have to use Luke per match to make him worthwile.

40 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

Why do people keep bringing up his cost? There is no correct cost for his ability. This ability is inherently unbalanced regardless of cost.

The devs ****** this one up, let's just hope they over price him so that he just becomes a dead card.

There is absolutely a cost that is too high. Is 30 it? Maybe, maybe not.

But there is absolutely a cost that is too high.

9 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

So you agree that making less frequent use of the rotation mechanic means at some point* that player would rather have taken another gunner and saved 20+ points.

Then you also understand that line of thinking you first thought you don‘t get, and even better, you share it!

Now all we have to figure out is how often do you have to use Luke per match to make him worthwile.

So we're just completely sailing over how the context of the vast majority of 1.0 utterly invalidates the incredibly flawed assertion that gunner Luke is some kind of "training wheel". Competitive players have exploited the **** out of this horrible mechanic for literally years

AND doubling down on "it's so overcosted you won't want to take it! GREAT design!!!!"

Not doing much to defend the existence of this instance of bad design

Which is fair, because you have a better chance at avoiding gunner Luke attacks than making any sound argument in his favor