Just now, Otacon said:

Yes, there's a safety valve. They should still be trying to avoid needing to use it, especially in the first wave of the redesign. People make mistakes, that's why they have these systems in place for 2nd edition, but given the way in which this card breaks the rules it seem like a pretty clear miss. But hey, best case we'll end up being the ones that were wrong about Luke. I'd be pleasantly surprised, but still surprised.

Relying on the safety valve would mean deliberately under-costing Luke and planning to fix it with the app.

What they have told us they are actually doing is deliberately over costing Luke and calling that mission accomplished. If they managed to under cost hims while trying to over-cost him that's just a garden variety mistake of the same sort as accidentally under costing something they meant to have costed correctly.

I love those defending the card saying it's going to overcosted so high you won't use it.

They designed Luke Skywalker so bad he is other overpowered or priced out of the game. What a waste of an iconic character.

How is either side of the spectrum defensible? It's just pure bad design.

6 minutes ago, Icelom said:

I love those defending the card saying it's going to overcosted so high you won't use it.

They designed Luke Skywalker so bad he is other overpowered or priced out of the game. What a waste of an iconic character.

How is either side of the spectrum defensible? It's just pure bad design.

Because to someone who is being harassed by a skilled Soontier/SR Vader/init bid player, paying the price of a small ship to be able to shoot may be worth it. But in an all-comers tournament list, 90% of the time you're better off with a different force using gunner, plus an extra fire arc.

16 minutes ago, Icelom said:

They designed Luke Skywalker so bad he is other overpowered or priced out of the game.

Only out of the competitive game.

And, of all the characters to pick from, framing Luke Skywalker as the start of a hero's journey of getting into X-Wing seems like the best pick.

3 hours ago, Azrapse said:

But isn't that exactly, exactly, the opposite argument the devs gave about the TIE Phantom in the AMA?
The TIE Phantom was so powerful and threw so many dice that they had to overprice it. But it was so broken that even overpricing it, it still twisted the meta. It wasn't uncommon at some point to see Whisper+Echo squads with huge initiative bids because they were that broken.
In that AMA, the devs said that since that didn't solve the issue, instead they opted for making the TIE Phantom less overpowered, allowing them to make it also cheaper.

Then they immediately create Gunner Luke, overpowered, but it's okay because we can just make it overpriced.

The issue with 1.0 Phantom is having a 40+ point ship that is either untouchable or folds like wet paper depending on the PS and init bid of your opponent.

They've reworked it for 2.0 to both be cheaper and to have mechanics less reliant on PS.

This is not even close to the same thing as Gunner Luke.

1 hour ago, __underscore__ said:

Only out of the competitive game.

And, of all the characters to pick from, framing Luke Skywalker as the start of a hero's journey of getting into X-Wing seems like the best pick.

I do not get this sentiment,

If he is overcosted in competitive he is overcosted in casual... Having a "training wheels" card that also makes your list horribly inefficient so you are fighting at a disadvantage is just stupid.

Also if i am your opponent is also new to the game and trying to learn how to arc dodge flying against a hard counter is not fun especially while attempting to learn fragile ships.

Its a bad card. I 100% disagree with the developers sentiment on this card.


(when did casual become "put crap on the board with 0 thought put into it")

19 minutes ago, Icelom said:

I do not get this sentiment,

If he is overcosted in competitive he is overcosted in casual... Having a "training wheels" card that also makes your list horribly inefficient so you are fighting at a disadvantage is just stupid.

Also if i am your opponent is also new to the game and trying to learn how to arc dodge flying against a hard counter is not fun especially while attempting to learn fragile ships.

Its a bad card. I 100% disagree with the developers sentiment on this card.


(when did casual become "put crap on the board with 0 thought put into it")

Casual games have a much smaller meta than tournamanet play. Against an imperial Fel/Vader arcdodging superaces list Luke will be worth losing an extra Awing from your list- what makes him too expensive is that 99% of the tournamanet meta is literally anything other than superarcdodgers, so that all he gives is the same as Ezra gunner for twice the cost.

But for a newbie who doesnt know his own dial, let alone anyone elses, he's going to lose a fair fight anyway for much the same reason as the arcdodging superaces. Luke wont let him beat the better player, not without some crazy dice luck, but it will let him at least throw dice back at his killer.

2 hours ago, Icelom said:

I love those defending the card saying it's going to overcosted so high you won't use it.

They designed Luke Skywalker so bad he is other overpowered or priced out of the game. What a waste of an iconic character.

How is either side of the spectrum defensible? It's just pure bad design.

Overpowered for what?

Overcosted for what?

You need to state the whole question/statement, not just such a small part that it is misleading. Then you'll see how both sides of the spectrum are defensible, and that it's not bad design.

Seriously though, until it all hits the tables, this topic is....

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

Overpowered for what?

Overcosted for what?

You need to state the whole question/statement, not just such a small part that it is misleading. Then you'll see how both sides of the spectrum are defensible, and that it's not bad design.

"Overpowered for what?"

If its overpowered for competitive play its also overpowered for casual play, there is not some magic that makes a card only good if you are at a tournament.

"Overcosted for what?"

Its over costed for casual and competitive play (amusing they made it over costed to be viable in competitive its over costed in all aspects of the game)

I believe there is no magical barrier between competitive and casual, if something sucks it sucks if something is overpowered its overpowered. Triple jumps were overpowered in casual, and in competitive, and the punisher is over costed in casual or competitive.

Ideally you want everything to be playable but not overpowered, end of statement.

25 minutes ago, Icelom said:

I do not get this sentiment,

If he is overcosted in competitive he is overcosted in casual... Having a "training wheels" card that also makes your list horribly inefficient so you are fighting at a disadvantage is just stupid.

There are other ways to be inefficient that just equipping an expensive card.

25 minutes ago, Icelom said:

"Overpowered for what?"

If its overpowered for competitive play its also overpowered for casual play, there is not some magic that makes a card only good if you are at a tournament.

"Overcosted for what?"

Its over costed for casual and competitive play (amusing they made it over costed to be viable in competitive its over costed in all aspects of the game)

I believe there is no magical barrier between competitive and casual, if something sucks it sucks if something is overpowered its overpowered. Triple jumps were overpowered in casual, and in competitive, and the punisher is over costed in casual or competitive.

Ideally you want everything to be playable but not overpowered, end of statement.

39 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

Casual games have a much smaller meta than tournamanet play. Against an imperial Fel/Vader arcdodging superaces list Luke will be worth losing an extra Awing from your list- what makes him too expensive is that 99% of the tournamanet meta is literally anything other than superarcdodgers, so that all he gives is the same as Ezra gunner for twice the cost.

But for a newbie who doesnt know his own dial, let alone anyone elses, he's going to lose a fair fight anyway for much the same reason as the arcdodging superaces. Luke wont let him beat the better player, not without some crazy dice luck, but it will let him at least throw dice back at his killer.

Why is an additional ship of the same cost (TIE, Attack shuttle, A-wing) not outright better than LukeGunner? It wasn't in 1.0 due to very strong defense, but that is a thing of the past. So why would anyone prefer to bring LukeGunner instead of an additional ship with additional HP, additional shot, possibility to block, a free slot and less halfpoints on a 1-agi ship?

I can see Luke having a place in the game if, as you say, it isn't meant for competitive game (not even casual competitive), and instead it is used in cinematic, scenarios and campaigns. There you want to have perhaps something overpowered to be a match for unbalanced teams, much like your pilot in HotAC would be ridiculously overpowered in the standard format.
A mission with Han piloting and Luke gunning, against endless waves of TIEs could be cool.

Still, it's weird for the devs to design a card that is openly not intended to be used in the standard format. Perhaps they release the Senator's Shuttle in Wave 2, a ship intended only for cinematic play.

1 hour ago, Icelom said:

I do not get this sentiment,

If he is overcosted in competitive he is overcosted in casual... Having a "training wheels" card that also makes your list horribly inefficient so you are fighting at a disadvantage is just stupid.

Also if i am your opponent is also new to the game and trying to learn how to arc dodge flying against a hard counter is not fun especially while attempting to learn fragile ships.

Its a bad card. I 100% disagree with the developers sentiment on this card.


(when did casual become "put crap on the board with 0 thought put into it")

The value of Luke is relative.

For one thing it's inversely proportionate to the player's ability to predict when they'll need to rotate their ark and to fly so as to minimize those times. The better the player the more "over costed" Luke is. For very low experience players Luke may well be under costed.

"over costed in competitive" means a player who had a realistic chance of winning a tournament will presumably be skilled enough that Luke is over costed for them. A less skilled player can still find the list they get the best results with includes Luke, but that player probably won't be placing in any tournaments so they don't really count in "competitive" analysis.

"designed for casual" means that the card is meant to be used in contexts other than a tournament. This could be scenarios, where balance is completely different from the 200/6 format due to objectives and/or asymmetrical force compositions. It could be a local meta where one player is a wizard with his A-Wings and Luke sees play just to force him to also include a couple jousters because everyone's sick of those blasted A-wings. It could be that you keep Luke in your "hand the newbie a list they can play while you show them the ropes" box.

Additionally Remember that in 2.0 costs can be different by format. Luke may literally cost less if you flip the format from "tournament" to "epic" or "casual". when building your list. (though I doubt it)

I’ve been eyeing the topic for a while now and finally want to chime in.

Personally, the idea of Luke (Gunner) scares the **** out me from both a competive and casual level. It does so many things against the idea and intentions of the 2.0 statement that it makes you have to guess what else is in the works.

I understand the Devs wanting Force users to bend the rules through their abilities which isn’t a terrible idea. I get it the Force allows you to do things beyond Joe Pilot over there. It’s the timing window that his use of the force that raises the red flags for me, and several others.

It was leaked that Luke’s cost is 30 points. Problem is that’s speculation, subject to change (prior to launch) and suspect from the leaked sources. We know there is a premium for Force users but that is obviously just variable. Is Vader (crew) 10 and Luke is 30 is the tax just 5 points? We won’t actually know also there is no way to know if the Tax applies the same to all Force users.

Obviously Luke with Han is a big concern for some. For me it’s Luke and I4 Pilots. Based on a lot of what I have seen and noticed I4 is that sweet spot between cost to Ability ratio that’s really going to be at the fore front. Likely for the 1300 that is Chewy. Since Chewy doesn’t have the extra tax for Top End Initiative, he can take Luke with room to spare for better wingmen. It also allows him to arc Dodge other I4’s and block higher Initiative Pilots as needed. Luke then allows Chewy to always get a shot at the Target he needs out of his way first.

Luke also does something else, and I haven’t actually seen anyone mention this. Luke can in fact invalidate his opponents upgrades. For Example I have Echo with Outmaneuver, and Fel both with Arcs on YT. The YT initially was pointed at Fel. Rather than risk no dice against Echo and taking extra damage rotate the Arc to face him and cancel the Outmaneuver because he is now in an Arc. A Scum ship with fearless a similar issue. Rotate the Arc away to avoid extra damage. Do you really want to see that in a game? Casual or otherwise?

Lastly, it’s training wheels arguments, or they can cost him out, or ban him. If he wasn’t intended for competitive play why not just make the card “not for competitive play” out of the gate, and print it on the card.That likely means the arguments and debates never happen or are minimal at worst. Good players can make a good upgrade great, Luke is a great upgrade so tha means it’s going to move up an additional level in the right hands. Also banning cards is just bad, might be necessary but still bad. Mainly because as we have seen it’s never just one card creating the issues it’s in combinations. Luke with a Single direction Turret, ugly but can be outflown. Luke with a Turret that can easily rotate to cover any direction, terrifying.

So what happens when Dad bring his son Joey to an event. Joey only really plays withLuke on the Falcon. Now Luke isn’t allowed for the event. Will Dad and Joey come at all? Is Joey or Dad really going to have fun? Maybe but a very good chance the answer is no to one of those questions. Which means Dad and Joey don’t likely come or come back and that’s bad for local communities trying to build interest in a game.

2 hours ago, Ronu said:

I’ve been eyeing the topic for a while now and finally want to chime in.

Personally, the idea of Luke (Gunner) scares the **** out me from both a competive and casual level. It does so many things against the idea and intentions of the 2.0 statement that it makes you have to guess what else is in the works.

I understand the Devs wanting Force users to bend the rules through their abilities which isn’t a terrible idea. I get it the Force allows you to do things beyond Joe Pilot over there. It’s the timing window that his use of the force that raises the red flags for me, and several others.

It was leaked that Luke’s cost is 30 points. Problem is that’s speculation, subject to change (prior to launch) and suspect from the leaked sources. We know there is a premium for Force users but that is obviously just variable. Is Vader (crew) 10 and Luke is 30 is the tax just 5 points? We won’t actually know also there is no way to know if the Tax applies the same to all Force users.

Obviously Luke with Han is a big concern for some. For me it’s Luke and I4 Pilots. Based on a lot of what I have seen and noticed I4 is that sweet spot between cost to Ability ratio that’s really going to be at the fore front. Likely for the 1300 that is Chewy. Since Chewy doesn’t have the extra tax for Top End Initiative, he can take Luke with room to spare for better wingmen. It also allows him to arc Dodge other I4’s and block higher Initiative Pilots as needed. Luke then allows Chewy to always get a shot at the Target he needs out of his way first.

Luke also does something else, and I haven’t actually seen anyone mention this. Luke can in fact invalidate his opponents upgrades. For Example I have Echo with Outmaneuver, and Fel both with Arcs on YT. The YT initially was pointed at Fel. Rather than risk no dice against Echo and taking extra damage rotate the Arc to face him and cancel the Outmaneuver because he is now in an Arc. A Scum ship with fearless a similar issue. Rotate the Arc away to avoid extra damage. Do you really want to see that in a game? Casual or otherwise?

Lastly, it’s training wheels arguments, or they can cost him out, or ban him. If he wasn’t intended for competitive play why not just make the card “not for competitive play” out of the gate, and print it on the card.That likely means the arguments and debates never happen or are minimal at worst. Good players can make a good upgrade great, Luke is a great upgrade so tha means it’s going to move up an additional level in the right hands. Also banning cards is just bad, might be necessary but still bad. Mainly because as we have seen it’s never just one card creating the issues it’s in combinations. Luke with a Single direction Turret, ugly but can be outflown. Luke with a Turret that can easily rotate to cover any direction, terrifying.

So what happens when Dad bring his son Joey to an event. Joey only really plays withLuke on the Falcon. Now Luke isn’t allowed for the event. Will Dad and Joey come at all? Is Joey or Dad really going to have fun? Maybe but a very good chance the answer is no to one of those questions. Which means Dad and Joey don’t likely come or come back and that’s bad for local communities trying to build interest in a game.

Very nice post, never considered the outmanuever arc cock block, very interesting. You have a rare grasp of the spike mind. Excellent points and very well explained, top notch.

I laught when i read about luke overcoating. It will be Balanced as everything. Otherwise what's the send to create a gunner luke card if it is not usable?

I don't think at ffg likes to waste time creating unusable stuff....

8 hours ago, Ronu said:

It was leaked that Luke’s cost is 30 points. Problem is that’s speculation, subject to change (prior to launch) and suspect from the leaked sources.

Just so you know the context around it: that wasn't a leak, that was a cost that came from a designer playing some games with people at an event and just telling people things. But yeah, there's no stopping them changing it before launch, but I somewhat doubt it - they must be knee deep in trying to deal with waves 2-3 or whatever at the moment.

8 hours ago, Ronu said:

Luke also does something else, and I haven’t actually seen anyone mention this. Luke can in fact invalidate his opponents upgrades. For Example I have Echo with Outmaneuver, and Fel both with Arcs on YT. The YT initially was pointed at Fel. Rather than risk no dice against Echo and taking extra damage rotate the Arc to face him and cancel the Outmaneuver because he is now in an Arc. A Scum ship with fearless a similar issue. Rotate the Arc away to avoid extra damage. Do you really want to see that in a game? Casual or otherwise?

That's an interesting point, but very situational. That is, I don't think there are many other examples with the same problem.

It gives a nice context though to showcase how Luke is still strictly worse than an actual PWT. As in your example, the YT might turn his arc to Echo to deny the Outmaneuver. Now Fel at I6 is completely free to spend all his tokens on offense! That is not possible in 1.0. How often did you have to keep a focus on your ace to defend a possible attack because you know your opponent would love to shoot on an ace without token and in arc (so no AT)? How often did you take the risk? Well now it's not a risk anymore if you approach from different angles. Sure he can turn the arc, but one of the ships is free to use the mods for offense only.

8 hours ago, Ronu said:

If he wasn’t intended for competitive play why not just make the card “not for competitive play” out of the gate, and print it on the card.

I don't understand. Doesn't that lead directly to your example of little Joey? I take it then that you don't think they should have printed it on the card?

13 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

It gives a nice context though to showcase how Luke is still strictly worse than an actual PWT. As in your example, the YT might turn his arc to Echo to deny the Outmaneuver. Now Fel at I6 is completely free to spend all his tokens on offense! That is not possible in 1.0. How often did you have to keep a focus on your ace to defend a possible attack because you know your opponent would love to shoot on an ace without token and in arc (so no AT)? How often did you take the risk? Well now it's not a risk anymore if you approach from different angles. Sure he can turn the arc, but one of the ships is free to use the mods for offense only.

Unless it’s the Han Falcon in which case he shoots Fel first at I7 with his double tap and Luke rotates to echo to screw her. This is all of course dependent on you being silly enough to be the filling in a starship sandwich which if Luke is on board you have ample ability to avoid because you don’t need to be anywhere so you fly complete defense and use Luke when you need to.

3 minutes ago, LordFajubi said:

Unless it’s the Han Falcon in which case he shoots Fel first at I7 with his double tap and Luke rotates to echo to screw her. This is all of course dependent on you being silly enough to be the filling in a starship sandwich which if Luke is on board you have ample ability to avoid because you don’t need to be anywhere so you fly complete defense and use Luke when you need to.

Only han gunner shoots at init 7. And I doubt ships have 2 gunner slots for both han gunner and luke gunner. (it's called opportunity cost)

Just now, Rakaydos said:

Only han gunner shoots at init 7. And I doubt ships have 2 gunner slots for both han gunner and luke gunner. (it's called opportunity cost)

My bad thought it was the pilot.

4 hours ago, LordFajubi said:

This is all of course dependent on you being silly enough to be the filling in a starship sandwich which if Luke is on board you have ample ability to avoid because you don’t need to be anywhere so you fly complete defense and use Luke when you need to.

Two aces against a YT should get at least one pass from different arcs every couple of rounds. It happens now against PWTs, so there is no reason that not-PWTs have it somehow easier.

And there will most likely be a weak wingman for Han at around or below 60points*, which can't defend as well as it was possible in 1.0. Kill that one off and you're ahead anyway, forcing him to engage.

*Han is 92, LukeGunner 30, and that leaves at least 2crew+EPT+mod slots. Apparently Leebo (92)+LukeGunner (30) + Outrider (12) + LoneWolf(5) +C3PO (12) is 151 points. So a pocket ace equivalent up to 30points in 1.0 seems reasonable to expect, but not much more.

4 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

I don't understand. Doesn't that lead directly to your example of little Joey? I take it then that you don't think they should have printed it on the card?

Not at all. If Dad can see up front a card is Casual play only. Then a plan can properly be made. It helps knowing that before an event it isn’t a usable upgrade.

If you want to say that’s what the App is for your correct. So long as it is both referenced before Dad and Joey come. It may also matters if it is in the correct game mode for the event. So yes lots of variables and would have could have we can discuss. A flat disclaimer is tough to miss in most cases.