7 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

I can't see it - the design of the upgrade icon comes from the Falcon's gunner seats, not to mention the picture of Luke they used for the art. Plus Gunner Han requires there to be multiple mobile arcs to work.

My bigger worry is the Falcon having 2 Gunner seats so you can have Chewie driving with Han and Luke shooting...

Han neither requires multiple mobiles nor is a problem on these kinds of ships

You can't double tap out of the same arc, so you're largely just getting either a higher I attack or a special ops training. Either way, not a big deal

Unless you can shoot out of your mobile arc and then double tap out of your primary...(so not yts, but hwk and Y and ESPECIALLY the ghost)

3 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

S**tposting doesn't get you a response. (if it did the Krayts would get a shoutout in every article)

They're gaining on your gunboats

To be honest, if you could get the falcon with Chewie pilot, Leia, R2 and 3P0 crew, with Luke and Han, toss in Han's special mods like engine upgrade and it be about 200 points, I'd be down with that :3 Maybe a special prebuilt falcon card that does that for pickup games.

5 minutes ago, DeadlyStreampuff said:

To be honest, if you could get the falcon with Chewie pilot, Leia, R2 and 3P0 crew, with Luke and Han, toss in Han's special mods like engine upgrade and it be about 200 points, I'd be down with that :3 Maybe a special prebuilt falcon card that does that for pickup games.

It needs to be able to easily take out 4 TIEs

3 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Han neither requires multiple mobiles nor is a problem on these kinds of ships

You can't double tap out of the same arc, so you're largely just getting either a higher I attack or a special ops training. Either way, not a big deal

Unless you can shoot out of your mobile arc and then double tap out of your primary...(so not yts, but hwk and Y and ESPECIALLY the ghost) 

It somewhat depends whether that mobile arc symbol only means mobile arcs or can work on primary as well. If it's mobile arcs only then he's clearly designed purely for a double-ender so he can get both the quick shot and double tap. As it is he's only getting half utility on a Y-Wing, so the chances are very, very high he can be a gunner in the Falcon.

(which was the point I was making, not that he's a problem in particular)

My Polish is rusty, but I believe this is a better translation:

Luke Skywalker - prior to the release date, you may spend 1 force token to cause forum users to gnash their teeth and cry to the heavens.

1 minute ago, BlodVargarna said:

It needs to be able to easily take out 4 TIEs

I feel like Chewie with just Han gunner and falcon title is probably already pretty good at that, before you add in even the rest. Thinking of, I think I'd like R2 and 3P0 to have a double crew card instead of an R2 crew, but a separtae 3p0 for if you want R2 in Luke. Hmmm I might be overcomplicating things there XD

Luke gunner himself is not an issue. He has to spend his force token to turn the arc around, when from the little info we have so far about force tokens, they can be used in better ways (like focus tokens?). What would make him a problem is if cards like expertise have found their way to 2.0 somehow.

55 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

...and will therefore be auto-include on any 3+ die turret ship unless he's overpriced to the point that you wonder why they bothered making him in the first place.

Today I learned grey doesn’t exist. If you lighten black it immediately turns white.

23 minutes ago, AlexW said:

Do we know if the YT-2400 has a gunner slot yet?

I'm pretty sure they said it has 2 crew, and 1 gunner slot. Don't know what else.

It’s a non-issue really because points values of upgrades can now be relative.

LG might 60 points on Han, 20 points in a Y Wing. Or LG might be 20 points on Han but doubles the cost of every other crew taken.

There will probably be other upgrades that mess around with force tokens (adding them, removing them etc) or alternative uses for a force token you’d rather take (over rotating an arc).

Luke Gunner also acts as a potential break to arc dodgers going too crazy. The counter point to turrets being powerful is that arc dodgers become ascendant: but those are really two different styles of play (both potentially problematic).

On that basis alone cards like LG probably need to be in the game. The ‘buy in’ point will be relative to the meta which in turn drives the cost. Lots of winning LGs? LGs points price goes up. More of a “market forces” effect.

We should also consider the ‘new player’, and the casual players who simply want thematic cards or less of a mental burden. LG exists for those players and can easily be priced out (or simply unavailable) in competitive play.

In short: these aren’t the droids we’re looking for, you can go about your business. Move along. Move along.

10 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

It needs to be able to easily take out 4 TIEs

Easy? You call that easy?

3 minutes ago, SirCormac said:

I'm pretty sure they said it has 2 crew, and 1 gunner slot. Don't know what else.

That's the 1300. I'd be shocked if the 2400 had the same loadout given that it only has one crew in 1e.

Just now, Tam Palso said:

It’s a non-issue really because points values of upgrades can now be relative.

LG might 60 points on Han, 20 points in a Y Wing. Or LG might be 20 points on Han but doubles the cost of every other crew taken.

There will probably be other upgrades that mess around with force tokens (adding them, removing them etc) or alternative uses for a force token you’d rather take (over rotating an arc).

Luke Gunner also acts as a potential break to arc dodgers going too crazy. The counter point to turrets being powerful is that arc dodgers become ascendant: but those are really two different styles of play (both potentially problematic).

On that basis alone cards like LG probably need to be in the game. The ‘buy in’ point will be relative to the meta which in turn drives the cost. Lots of winning LGs? LGs points price goes up. More of a “market forces” effect.

We should also consider the ‘new player’, and the casual players who simply want thematic cards or less of a mental burden. LG exists for those players and can easily be priced out (or simply unavailable) in competitive play.

In short: these aren’t the droids we’re looking for, you can go about your business. Move along. Move along.

I think we all understand that they can adjust things.

Ideal design would provide a vehicle that allows for thematic and balanced competitive play, so IMO, building a mechanic where Luke+Han can't go together is poor design.

I promise this is not just hyperbole:

If Gunner Luke works the way the spoilers say that he does, I am probably going to wait a bit before buying into second edition. And maybe skip it entirely.

If this is where our designers go when they have a chance for a fresh start, I am not really interested in buying back in.

Unless it’s severely undercosted, gunner!Luke is fine- this is just an extreme knee-jerk overreaction by *ahem* a few select forum users.

Remember that a skilled player will be able to keep his targets in the mobile arcs 95% of the time without rotating them anyway. Look at the Shadowcaster. Is the Gyroscopic Targeting an auto-include upgrade at only 2 points? Hardly. Most of the time I see the Shadowcaster without it unless the player happened to have 2 extra points to burn. And it does the exact same thing Gunner!Luke will do- allow free post-activation arc rotation (EDIT: and yes I know Luke gives you the force point, too, but it’s the arc movement that everybody is whinging about). This is because skilled players know where they want their arc set before they engage and know how to position themselves so that they keep their target(s) inside that arc.

Mark my words, Gunner!Luke will largely flop, and won’t be seen at the top tables of major competitive events at all.

It doesn't matter if he's good. What matters is that he's going against 2.0 phillsophy and it is an indicator of not so bright future design.

Points aside, just talking timing and game effects: does anyone have a suggestion for a change to Luke's text (assuming the translation is 100%) that would make him palatable?

Here are some options:

"At Initiative 6 in the activation phase...."

or

"spend a [force] to execute a [rotate] action" (the difference is that it's the action and can be stopped by stress)

or

"...if you do, you cannot modify your attack dice this turn"

or

"after you perform an action, you may spend one [force] to ...."

I am curious, if you are offended by Luke Gunner, would any of the above changes ease your concern?

12 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

I promise this is not just hyperbole:

If Gunner Luke works the way the spoilers say that he does, I am probably going to wait a bit before buying into second edition. And maybe skip it entirely.

If this is where our designers go when they have a chance for a fresh start, I am not really interested in buying back in.

It really isn't hyperbole

No one wants to buy into 2.0 to have the same experiences with broken mechanics from 1.0 that we've already "enjoyed" so much

Gunner Luke is literally the only thing that's shaken my optimism for 2.0

They were so good about addressing EVERY CONCERN from 1.0...only to potentially backflip right into the same cesspool

2 minutes ago, Incard said:

Points aside, just talking timing and game effects: does anyone have a suggestion for a change to Luke's text (assuming the translation is 100%) that would make him palatable?

Here are some options:

"At Initiative 6 in the activation phase...."

or

"spend a [force] to execute a [rotate] action" (the difference is that it's the action and can be stopped by stress)

or

"...if you do, you cannot modify your attack dice this turn"

or

"after you perform an action, you may spend one [force] to ...."

I am curious, if you are offended by Luke Gunner, would any of the above changes ease your concern?

No mods would do it for me. There is no force on this earth that can convince me there won’t be some slot, if not at go then eventually, that will break this ability that is at conception too powerful.

I don't understand the freak out. Yes, it breaks a core concept of turrets in v2, but it's freakin' Luke. So, I'm OK as long as it's not too powerful.

Is it still powerful? Is it the return of Fat Han? I don't see it. It means that Han can do one action per turn. Does Han have his built in reroll ability? No. Does he have the awesome defensive power of C-3PO and R2-D2? Nope. Can he Boost and BR away? No. This is especially true since every ship can BR now.

Han will get 3 red dice per turn, but probably not modified. Oh, Han can if near an obstacle, but that also makes him very predictable for movement. Also, rerolling one die isn't isn't crazy powerful. Others have said you can add more force crew, but you only get 1 Force regen per turn. That means turn a turret or adjust dice.

It just doesn't seem scary to me as you can shoot Han down a lot easier than you could before.

4 minutes ago, Incard said:

Points aside, just talking timing and game effects: does anyone have a suggestion for a change to Luke's text (assuming the translation is 100%) that would make him palatable?

Just give him 2 normal charges rather than the regenerating force and he'd still be very good.

To a certain extent, how good Luke might be is irrelevant. The point is that he's too easy, and that there's no counterplay. Minister Maketh Tua gives someone a red reinforce action they can take, but it's still an action and it's still red. So there are limitations to that. 1E Gyroscopic Targeting is really efficient, but it's at the end phase so there's potential to plan around that. Things like TIE Defenders are required to fully complete a maneuver to get their free action. But Luke is not an action (thus not stopped by stress), just happens (doesn't matter if he bumps), but at the same time is timed perfectly at the start of the Engagement phase.

If Luke happened at any other time (Device Phase, when Luke's ship activates, when Luke's ship fully executes a maneuver, End Phase), certainly no big deal.

If Luke had counterplay like stress, probably no big deal. If he worked like Tua and gave you a red rotate action at the start of the engagement phase, he'd still be nasty, but he'd require green moves, and require you not to do red actions.

But he doesn't even require that.

I think there ought to be some tools to help players get arc, but I think Luke goes a bit too far.

Just now, __underscore__ said:

Just give him 2 normal charges rather than the regenerating force and he'd still be very good.

This actually makes sense too. If you want the fluff route that’s ANH Luke in that picture. He was no jedi at that point, no training and was basically using the force for luck not control. He should not regen ****.

10 minutes ago, Herowannabe said:

Unless it’s severely undercosted, gunner!Luke is fine- this is just an extreme knee-jerk overreaction by *ahem* a few select forum users.

Remember that a skilled player will be able to keep his targets in the mobile arcs 95% of the time without rotating them anyway. Look at the Shadowcaster. Is the Gyroscopic Targeting an auto-include upgrade at only 2 points? Hardly. Most of the time I see the Shadowcaster without it unless the player happened to have 2 extra points to burn. And it does the exact same thing Gunner!Luke will do- allow free post-activation arc rotation (EDIT: and yes I know Luke gives you the force point, too, but it’s the arc movement that everybody is whinging about). This is because skilled players know where they want their arc set before they engage and know how to position themselves so that they keep their target(s) inside that arc.

Mark my words, Gunner!Luke will largely flop, and won’t be seen at the top tables of major competitive events at all.

The fact you think gyroscopic targeting is on the same level as Luke gunner is frankly astounding.

It's about when they trigger, if Luke triggered the same as gyroscopic targeting we would not be having this discussion.

2 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

It really isn't hyperbole

No one wants to buy into 2.0 to have the same experiences with broken mechanics from 1.0 that we've already "enjoyed" so much

Gunner Luke is literally the only thing that's shaken my optimism for 2.0

They were so good about addressing EVERY CONCRRN from 1.0...only to potentially backflip right into the same cesspool

X Wing has had PWT available for the majority of its existence and remained extremely popular. So you’re saying players have been gritting their teeth for wave after wave hating the game (whilst spending loads on it)?

Or, is it plausible that by decrying play options that counter yours (e.g high initiative arc dodgers) you might be better placing an advantage to your own preferred ships?

Noting, from the above, that LG is unique and therefore can only create a 1.0 PWT on one ship in a list?