24 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

btw, the second Bistan shot can be modded as he has the focus requirement, and it doesn't need to be in a different arc:

After you perform a primary attack, if you are focused, you may perform a bonus [Turret] attack against a ship you have not already attacked this round.

Correct. I have updated my post to reflect that.
So that makes Bistan a bit harder to trigger, since you need to have got a focus token left after your first attack, and still you need to attack a different ship.

22 minutes ago, Skandranon said:

If you are flying well u aren't wasting the action on the turret movement so assuming no mod attacks is just wrong, also am i missing something that everyone ignores ezra? If a ship only has turrets is it considered to have no primary arc? would like to know this, cause at an estimated 14 points he is looking like a great gunner, giving a double attack if u can and if u can't a force token for modding

For Flying well you mean Flying predictably? Because if your arc is pointing to the sides and I am behind you, I know you will try to turn to get me in arc, so that gives me information about what your maneuver is going to be. If I misjudge you and you keep flying straight, I am at least compensated by the fact that you had to spend your action on rotating the turret, so you will have no mods. Or perhaps you will not even get to attack at all.
If you arc was pointing backwards and I was behind, I know that you will fly straight or bank, too keep me in arc, so I can plan ahead to out of your arc and make you spend your action at rotating it.
Compare that with the situation where you had Luke instead.
In that case, regardless of where you are pointing at, I have no idea where you are going to move. Regardless of what I do, you will move as you wish, do a modding action (or repositioning), then either rotate your turret for free and modify your attack with your modding action, or keep your turret were it is and double modify your attack with your modding action + the Force token.

You are right on me forgetting about Ezra.
He is an improvement over Veteran and Bistan if only for the Force token he provides. However, it requires you to attack a different ship* (that is always worse idea than focusing fire on the same) and be stressed, that makes you even more predictable next round.

*A different ship because I am talking here about high initiative primary turret ships, that have no printed primary frontal arc, and so Ezra necessarily needs to attack form the opposite turret arc.

Individual turns and maneuvers are irrelevant, if you are flying well, that means putting rocks in a way that allows you to control engagements, and setting your arc for that engagement at the start of the game, playing 2-3 turns ahead to get a real advantage on clutch turns. We already see the difference between good mobile arc players, and bad mobile arc players in shadowcaster play, that will be magnified with 2.0 turrets.

We will see.
I think Luke gives these ships the freedom to fly as unpredictable as they want, and that will translate in fewer attacks on them, and so, higher survivability. So not only he buffs their damage output, but also increases their lifespan.

I thought the AMA might make the discussion here reasonable. I don't think it has. Ok...people aren't really rude or anything, but such negativity.

My response to the AMA

1. I have more faith in the developers and appreciate their extensive and thoughtful response.
2. It's still a dumb idea and a dangerous card to include in 2nd Ed at any price.
3. If a low initiative YT-2400 with Luke Gunner is not a strong ship out the gate of 2nd Ed, I will be very surprised.

7 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Wow, such stubborn immunity to other viewpoints is impressive!

Some of us immediately identified it as great casual card, as useful set of training wheels. The devs confirmed that it is indeed the idea behind it and they do and will cost it accordingly.

(And yes @ficklegreendice, it is because it allows for mistakes (rotate arc) but rewards proper usage of mobile arcs with a free dice mod. That is basically the definition of training wheels and I‘m not sure why you refuse to see it.)

I‘m done with the topic. If the devs chiming in didn‘t help then nothing else will.

This is exactly the aspect that makes it so strong for competitive. Unless he's truly overcosted, and I'm not convinced yet even 30 is enough, easy + strong = tournament-no-brainer. It's always been this way, in X-wing and every other game out there.

Am I already outflying you? Great, I get action free dice mods every shot that don't care about stress or blocking. Do I need to do some arc dodging to keep you from shooting me? Great, I still get to take shots while I boost or just reposition and mod my shot. Han is limited to needing to be near obstacles to get his rerolls now. But if I don't need to care about where my arc is facing, it's way easier to focus on hugging the rocks and still get shots with his, again, action free mods. Or Lando. As long as I pull a Blue I can boost and Focus/TL, with near perfect information, and still be guaranteed a shot with those mods, or just a better modded shot if I kept you in arc.

In a world without Autothrusters, without Evade tokens adding extra results, without crazy action economy, and with generally lower Pilot Skill/Initiative, an upgrade that basically gives you both mods and action economy with perfect information is incredibly valuable. Even if the worst case doesn't pan out in Wave 1, Luke is out there, all it potentially takes is one bad upgrade somewhere to break things. And yes, they have the means to much more easily fix issues if they come up, but the fact something so glaring is already coming in Wave 1 is troubling.

5 hours ago, Shoulder of Orion said:

There was an AMA. Asked and answered.

This thread needs to

Just because they gave their reasoning doesn't mean we have to agree they're right.

I don't think low I gunner Luke will be a thing

Just like in 1.0, the real problem is high I turrets being the best arcdodgers in the game because they don't have to worry at all about their facing, giving them ridiculous flexibility and options when it comes to trivially avoiding firing arcs

Also unavoidable ps killing

For generic yt2400s, I'm more looking forward to preceptive Bistan. No arcdodging here, just a REAL big gun and a tiny but really enthusiastic gunner

12 minutes ago, Otacon said:

Just because they gave their reasoning doesn't mean we have to agree they're right.

But do you all have to keep going on and on about it? I really don't want to have to spend the next 3+months reading the same thing over and over and over and over.

15 minutes ago, PanchoX1 said:

But do you all have to keep going on and on about it? I really don't want to have to spend the next 3+months reading the same thing over and over and over and over.

If people are going to say "Look, the devs said it's for casual play, we were right" as though that somehow settles it, then yeah I'm still going to respond. It's a discussion forum, there's a new piece of information for the discussion. The developers claim it's meant for more casual play; I counter argue that the things that they say make it good for newer players are the same things that make it so potentially strong for competitive.

29 minutes ago, PanchoX1 said:

But do you all have to keep going on and on about it? I really don't want to have to spend the next 3+months reading the same thing over and over and over and over.

Then don't keep coming back in this thread...

The power of having control of yourself means you are not forced to read anything you don't want.

Gamers of x-wing, I come in peace. You need not fear me, I mean you no harm. I was designed for casual play and will be costed appropriately. However, it is important to note that most of you will not survive the first 24 hours after release. The few of you that do will be enslaved and experimented on. You should in no way take any of this personally. It's just business.

So to recap, I come in peace, I mean you no harm, and you all will die. Gunner Luke out.

1 hour ago, Otacon said:

Unless he's truly overcosted, and I'm not convinced yet even 30 is enough, easy + strong = tournament-no-brainer.

And the devs declared their intention to make him cost even more if it turns out that 30 is not enough. That right there ends all discussion on the issue.

13 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

And the devs declared their intention to make him cost even more if it turns out that 30 is not enough. That right there ends all discussion on the issue.

But isn't that exactly, exactly, the opposite argument the devs gave about the TIE Phantom in the AMA?
The TIE Phantom was so powerful and threw so many dice that they had to overprice it. But it was so broken that even overpricing it, it still twisted the meta. It wasn't uncommon at some point to see Whisper+Echo squads with huge initiative bids because they were that broken.
In that AMA, the devs said that since that didn't solve the issue, instead they opted for making the TIE Phantom less overpowered, allowing them to make it also cheaper.

Then they immediately create Gunner Luke, overpowered, but it's okay because we can just make it overpriced.

1 hour ago, heychadwick said:

I thought the AMA might make the discussion here reasonable. I don't think it has. Ok...people aren't really rude or anything, but such negativity.

It's not negativity.
This is all over the same discussion as we were having years ago when R3 Astromech was spoiled. A few of us were saying that it wasn't worth the cardboard it was printed on, while other complained about us judging something before release and such negativity...

I really wish to be wrong here. That MajorJuggler pops up in the next page "Hey guys, my numbers say Luke is crap and innefficient, and Bistan is our new god."
But somehow I don't expect that to happen.

13 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

But isn't that exactly, exactly, the opposite argument the devs gave about the TIE Phantom in the AMA?

No. Because they are willing to effectively ban Luke from competitive play and have declared their intent beforehand. Big difference.

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

No. Because they are willing to effectively ban Luke from competitive play and have declared their intent beforehand. Big difference.

Wrong - Azrapse is right it is same thing.

Just now, RedHotDice said:

Wrong - Azrapse is right it is same thing.

You should provide a reason if you want your opinion to be considered

13 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

No. Because they are willing to effectively ban Luke from competitive play and have declared their intent beforehand. Big difference.

You must see the contradiction there, really.
1. Instead of making game component A too powerful, disruptive and expensive, we think it's better for the game to make it less powerful, less disruptive, and less expensive.
2. For game component B, we have chosen to make it so much powerful and disruptive. But no problem, we will compensate it by making it very expensive, or banning it.

It's like saying that if the TIE Phantom was first released today, they would gladly make it super powerful and disruptive (you know, to better reflect the lore). But no problem, we can always make it super expensive or banning it.
Doesn't that contradict point 1? How is that any good for the game?

6 hours ago, Azrapse said:

Correct. I have updated my post to reflect that.
So that makes Bistan a bit harder to trigger, since you need to have got a focus token left after your first attack, and still you need to attack a different ship.

For Flying well you mean Flying predictably? Because if your arc is pointing to the sides and I am behind you, I know you will try to turn to get me in arc, so that gives me information about what your maneuver is going to be. If I misjudge you and you keep flying straight, I am at least compensated by the fact that you had to spend your action on rotating the turret, so you will have no mods. Or perhaps you will not even get to attack at all.
If you arc was pointing backwards and I was behind, I know that you will fly straight or bank, too keep me in arc, so I can plan ahead to out of your arc and make you spend your action at rotating it.
Compare that with the situation where you had Luke instead.
In that case, regardless of where you are pointing at, I have no idea where you are going to move. Regardless of what I do, you will move as you wish, do a modding action (or repositioning), then either rotate your turret for free and modify your attack with your modding action, or keep your turret were it is and double modify your attack with your modding action + the Force token.

You are right on me forgetting about Ezra.
He is an improvement over Veteran and Bistan if only for the Force token he provides. However, it requires you to attack a different ship* (that is always worse idea than focusing fire on the same) and be stressed, that makes you even more predictable next round.

*A different ship because I am talking here about high initiative primary turret ships, that have no printed primary frontal arc, and so Ezra necessarily needs to attack form the opposite turret arc.

Predictably? your gun is pointing out both sides, plenty of options to trick your opponent. If they do manage to skip your arc, well set up your now dangerous as dash wingman to get them if they do, cause now they dont have one threat and a ignorable buddy to worry about, but 2 ships they have to worry about taking them apart.

ezra stressed is only a requirement for the reroll.

5 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

Doesn't that contradict point 1? How is that any good for the game?

It does not because you do not provide all underlying assumptions. If you would then you could realize that it is not contradicting.

Component A ... given that we keep it viable for competitive play

Component B ... given that we fully intend to make it nonviable for competitive play

10 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

You must see the contradiction there, really.
1. Instead of making game component A too powerful, disruptive and expensive, we think it's better for the game to make it less powerful, less disruptive, and less expensive.
2. For game component B, we have chosen to make it so much powerful and disruptive. But no problem, we will compensate it by making it very expensive, or banning it.

It's like saying that if the TIE Phantom was first released today, they would gladly make it super powerful and disruptive (you know, to better reflect the lore). But no problem, we can always make it super expensive or banning it.
Doesn't that contradict point 1?

No contradiction, only apples and oranges.

Game Component A is a model. If it's banned from tounamants, that model will never see tabletime and there was no point to convert it from 1st ed.

Game Component B us an upgrade card that shares a name with a pilot. If they make that upgrade uncompetitive, and you want to play the character on that upgrade card, just use his pilot card instead.

1 hour ago, Otacon said:

This is exactly the aspect that makes it so strong for competitive. Unless he's truly overcosted, and I'm not convinced yet even 30 is enough, easy + strong = tournament-no-brainer. It's always been this way, in X-wing and every other game out there.

That's the point. He WILL be over-costed, and they'll up the cost until that's true if they low ball it at first because the card is designed to be over costed in competitive formats.

However,

For the intended use case (casual and new players) that won't matter, because your group can recost him to wherever you agree he should be, and when you're a new player who has no idea how to maneuver well being able to get any shots at all is worth any price.

If they do it right Luke will be only slightly over costed, and figuring out that he isn't worth it will be a sort of right of passage.

45 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

But isn't that exactly, exactly, the opposite argument the devs gave about the TIE Phantom in the AMA?
The TIE Phantom was so powerful and threw so many dice that they had to overprice it. But it was so broken that even overpricing it, it still twisted the meta. It wasn't uncommon at some point to see Whisper+Echo squads with huge initiative bids because they were that broken.
In that AMA, the devs said that since that didn't solve the issue, instead they opted for making the TIE Phantom less overpowered, allowing them to make it also cheaper.

Then they immediately create Gunner Luke, overpowered, but it's okay because we can just make it overpriced.

No, the phantom answer was saying that at a correct cost for a 4 die primary phantom, you had to build your list around the phantom or leave it in the box because it crowded everything else out of your list. By lowering the primary attack to 3 dice they could make it cheaper by enough that it didn't have to be the centerpiece to see play. And they think that having it be one of many options for any list that wants an tricked out ace, a crew carrier, or a generic flaker is better for the meta than tehre existing a "Whisper and filler" list archetype and no other use for the phantom.

With gunner Luke the answer is that they're intentionally designing the card to not see much play in competitive because they are deliberately over pricing it, but still want to include it because it does something useful in other formats they want to support. Notably it's training wheels for new players so they have a recourse when their inability to fly worth a **** might otehrwise frustrate them to the point of quitting, and it's an iconic character from the lore usable in scenarios where balance can come from things otehr than points.

18 minutes ago, Turtlewing said:

That's the point. He WILL be over-costed, and they'll up the cost until that's true if they low ball it at first because the card is designed to be over costed in competitive formats.

However,

For the intended use case (casual and new players) that won't matter, because your group can recost him to wherever you agree he should be, and when you're a new player who has no idea how to maneuver well being able to get any shots at all is worth any price.

If they do it right Luke will be only slightly over costed, and figuring out that he isn't worth it will be a sort of right of passage.

Yes, there's a safety valve. They should still be trying to avoid needing to use it, especially in the first wave of the redesign. People make mistakes, that's why they have these systems in place for 2nd edition, but given the way in which this card breaks the rules it seem like a pretty clear miss. But hey, best case we'll end up being the ones that were wrong about Luke. I'd be pleasantly surprised, but still surprised.

Card should have never been designed. But now that it has, it just needs to be costed appropriately. If that’s costing it out of competition...