Hypothetical: Dash Rendar crew becomes a Gunner Slot. (Ignore terrain in the combat phase, no double tap, no mods)

Which is better- Han with Dash, or Outer Rim Smuggler with Luke? (since Luke is supposed to be abusive on low PS pilots)

Luke is abusive on high ps pilot as it frees action for repositioning

Gunner Luke Dash is basically death to anyone who moves before Dash

1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

Luke is abusive on high ps pilot as it frees action for repositioning

Gunner Luke Dash is basically death to anyone who moves before Dash

But that's on the high PS, not on luke. Which is why my comparison has luke on a low PS ship, and are controlling for the other abusive element- Milinium Falcon Han Solo near/on rocks with white boost.

5 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

But that's on the high PS, not on luke. Which is why my comparison has luke on a low PS ship, and are controlling for the other abusive element- Milinium Falcon Han Solo near/on rocks with white boost.

No, it's on the high ps AND Luke

If dash has to waste action on rotate, he ain't rolling

If he doesn't, then he can effortlessly dodge while also getting all the shots he wants

Luke gunner, and the 1.0 turrets it is exactly like, favors high I pilots for this exact reason

1.0 boost/roll turrets were the best high pa arcdodgers BAR NONE because they could move however and still have shots

Just now, ficklegreendice said:

No, it's on the high ps AND Luke

If dash has to waste action on rotate, he ain't rolling

If he doesn't, then he can effortlessly dodge while also getting all the shots he wants

Luke gunner, and the 1.0 turrets it is exactly like, favors high I pilots for this exact reason

1.0 boost/roll turrets were the best high pa arcdodgers BAR NONE because they could move however and still have shots

Which is why ship based prices are a thing- you can have luke cost more on high PS ships than low PS ships, in addition to the PS6 superpilot tax.

By the way, in case you missed it, I was talking about a hypothetical gunner dash, not gunner han on dash. I do not believe the 2400 will have a gunner slot.

We better hope that dash doesn't get a gunner slot

We know from experience how dumb dash was and how idiotic it'd be if he could also shoot range 1

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

We better hope that dash doesn't get a gunner slot

We know from experience how dumb dash was and how idiotic it'd be if he could also shoot range 1

We all know how much you hate turrets, but seriously, if two ship stuff becomes big, Defenders will poop all over them. No way single attacks will do the damage required to take down a Defender over the course of a game.

7 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

We all know how much you hate turrets, but seriously, if two ship stuff becomes big, Defenders will poop all over them. No way single attacks will do the damage required to take down a Defender over the course of a game.

Great!

Now we're stuck playing matchup wing when we should be focusing on manuevering

Exactly the opposite of what the developers stated as their intended goal ?

I don't understand why people believe "**** mechanic okay because it won't be hypercompetitive maybe if you play its counters!!!"

It's a **** mechanic that contradicts the game's stated focus, the whole reason for 2.0 in the first place.

Currently spoiled gunner Luke should not exist in Xwing 2.0. Period.

3 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Great!

Now we're stuck playing matchup wing when we should be focusing on manuevering

Exactly the opposite of what the developers stated as their intended goal ?

It's not a solution, it's Mutually Assured Destruction.

1 minute ago, Biophysical said:

It's not a solution, it's Mutually Assured Destruction.

A kind of "Negative Feedback" that has nothing to do with Salt.

20 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

It's a **** mechanic that contradicts the game's stated focus, the whole reason for 2.0 in the first place.

They stated that wanted there to be more focus on good flying. Not that there will be a 100% emphasis on it.

I agree that it kinda seems out of place and that it is a contradictory to the change of focus stated. but as others have pointed out, this game is built on establishing rules and then creating upgrades and abilities that break those rules. that's what this is. Doubt it will be meta defining, doubt it will be game breaking. the only fear that I have, is that it wont be the only exception of it's kind to the new turret design. I trust/hope it will be. Time will tell.

exceptions to rules should only push at boundaries, and still be limited by other mechanics

for (several) examples:

2.0 advanced sensors remove the consequence of being blocked ito getting an action, but they do not protect from stress nor do they allow multiple actions any longer (one use, limit one action per activation). It is an incomplete exception with built-in counters.

2.0 Elusive is action independent defensive modifiers, but it can only be used once before you have to recharge it by fully executing a red manuever

Afterburners is action independent repositioning that ignores stress...but it's also only after fully executing a maneuver of a certain speed, and is limited to two charges.

2.0 predator is action independent modification, but only in the very narrow (and forward-locked) bullseye arc. It is a minor exception with built-in counters.

Palpatine is action independent modification that you can stack. Shock! Oh wait, it's been hypernerfed down to just a focus --> evade/hit, so you can't actually stack it with focus like you could in 1.0.

The TIE interceptor can arc-dodge as before, but it is still susceptible to stress/blocking/obstacles etc, it still has a firing arc to worry about, AND it can't token stack for diddly anymore (also no thrusters).

The TIE defender can stack focus + evade, but only if it still focusing on its maneuvering by completing a very specific condition and is still limited by the nerfed evade mechanics of 2.0. Again, minor exception with built-in counters

Vader and Dengar crews are "guaranteed" damage (big no-nos according to the developers), but just having a green token (product of taking an action that any ship can take) will allow you to avoid their effects.

Bombs also do guaranteed damage, but they are now knocked down to the system phase so everyone has a chance to maneuver around them

etc. etc. etc

...gunner luke completely ***** the 2.0 bed. It completely invalidates counter-play to mobile-arcs by making arc-dodging impossible. Any chance you have at blocking the turret is rendered nearly moot given how difficult it is to block a ship that never has to face towards you, AND it won't stop gunner Luke from rotating. Actually, there is literally nothing you can do to stop gunner luke from rotating that arc as (currently spoiled) it isn't even a free action nor does it have any stipulation such as fully executing a maneuver, not overlapping etc.

Other upgrades/abilities may slightly bend some of the changes in 2.0, but they're always still limited by the stated design philsophy (all defensive stacking is weaker thanks to evade and reinforce nerfs, action-independent mods like FCS and predator were hard nerfed, sensors cannot be abused because it's capped at one action per activation, action independent defensive modifiers are hard-capped by charge and other limitations such as weapon disabled etc.). Gunner luke has no such pretense. It is a 1.0 mechanic ported straight into an edition that doesn't deserve to suffer its presence.

if it had ANY of the 2.0 limitations (such as charge or even non-regenerating force, or disallowed on overlap of obstacle/ship, or if took place during a different phase) it would've been perfect. It does not.

it honestly baffles me. They had so many ways to make gunner Luke not a complete affront to their own stated design philosophy.

So yeah, it's not just that it's a hard and abject contradiction to the designer's own mission statement, but it's also completely unhinged with no built-in limitations that could allow your opponent to counteract it. Hope you like rolling dice, because that's your only recourse.

4 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

exceptions to rules should only push at boundaries

2.0 advanced sensors remove the consequence of being blocked ito getting an action, but they do not protect from stress nor do they allow multiple actions any longer. It is an incomplete exception with built-in counters.

2.0 predator is action independent modification, but only in the very narrow bullseye arc. It is a minor exception with built-in counters.

The TIE interceptor can arc-dodge as before, but it is still susceptible to stress/blocking/obstacles etc and it still has a firing arc to worry about.

The TIE defender can stack focus + evade, but only if it still focusing on its maneuvering by completing a very specific condition and is still limited by the nerfed evade mechanics of 2.0. Again, minor exception with built-in counters

What about Vader using the force to do more actions? What's that counter? I'm not aware of one but I sure could have missed it. or if something can stop Him that we know of or I haven't realized. What stops or counters Palpatine from modding dice? Having force abilities be unstoppable may be a theme.

5 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

...gunner luke completely ***** the 2.0 bed by allowing zero ability to ever arc-dodge the turret he's on.

there is literally nothing you can do to stop gunner luke from rotating that arc as (currently spoiled)

nothing that we know of. We haven't see it all. You don't know there is nothing or no way to shut it down.

7 minutes ago, PanchoX1 said:

What about Vader using the force to do more actions? What's that counter? I'm not aware of one but I sure could have missed it. or if something can stop Him that we know of or I haven't realized. What stops or counters Palpatine from modding dice? Having force abilities be unstoppable may be a theme.

nothing that we know of. We haven't see it all. You don't know there is nothing or no way to shut it down.

here you go

literally anything that stops a normal action stops Vader's ability (he has to do an action to trigger it)

counters through the nose there

palp has no "counter", but palp also got kicked so hard in the teeth that he's acceptable in 2.0. he no longer allows you to stack defenses beyond the norm (like soontir + evade + thrusters + palp = 3/4 guaranteed evades guaranteed, now it's just evade + Forcus = 2 guaranteed evades max if you roll a focus). He got nerfed into 2.0 standard, and just giving a ship a single Forcus isn't stopping you from outmaneuvering the modified ship or doing damage to it any more than normal tokens would

also, if the base mechanics of the game do not allow you to counter gunner luke, then we're back to taking specific upgrades to counter gunner luke

and we're back to matchup-wing, the antithesis of what the designer's want

it's not good enough to go "oh just hamstring yourself into taking this upgrade if you want to beat this upgrade", it's actually less than sound game design that emphasizes list building and match-ups over actually playing the game.

edit: btw, if anyone says that Vader has no counter because coordinate (which is untrue because you still can't do actions when stressed), let me say immediately that I am perfectly okay with coordinating mobile arc rotations

this is because the mobile arc player has to track the positioning of two ships, which gives your opponent two things to play around rather than one unstoppable Luke

10 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

here you go

I'm at work and the image is blocked. I'll have to check it out later but thanks for the reference. Looking forward to reading more into how Vader actually works.

12 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

palp has no "counter", but palp also got kicked so hard in the teeth that he's acceptable in 2.0.

a lot of folks feel that the psudeo 360 turret ship Luke creates on the new falcon is also weaker. and therefore acceptable.

15 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

also, if the base mechanics of the game do not allow you to counter gunner luke, then we're back to taking specific upgrades to counter gunner luke

and we're back to matchup-wing, the antithesis of what the designer's want

it's not good enough to go "oh just hamstring yourself into taking this upgrade if you want to beat this upgrade", it's actually less than sound game design that emphasizes list building and match-ups over actually playing the game.

If Luke were the only possible upgrade on the Falcon which was the only possible ship you'd play against, I'd agree 100%. But with the amount of viable ships and combos and upgrades and configurations 2ndE promises to bring, and considering we have no idea of his pricing, I go back to the above, he's acceptable. I don't necessarily like him being in the game in this iteration. but it's acceptable.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion!

How's about this question for all the Luke fans or apologists or whatever:

Would you agree that Luke would be a better design if he rotated the arc during the system phase?

Yes, he would have to be cheaper...

10 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

edit: btw, if anyone says that Vader has no counter because coordinate (which is untrue because you still can't do actions when stressed), let me say immediately that I am perfectly okay with coordinating mobile arc rotations

this is because the mobile arc player has to track the positioning of two ships, which gives your opponent two things to play around rather than one unstoppable Luke

This is 'I build a squad around synergy between two ships' - yes, I have no problem with this. If Fenn Rau had 'just' been PS9 with co-ordinate, I don't think anyone would have complained about him (much ).

Luke should, hopefully, be expensive such that you can counter him with "I get more stuff". But, yes. I'm not saying he's invincible, and nor is @ficklegreendice. 1.0 turrets are beatable with generics and swarms and aces and anything else, with dice and luck and tactics on your side.

The point is, if you want a game where manoeuvring wins you the day, creating a ship with absolutely no blind spot just seems like the wrong choice at a basic level.

Yes, there are initiative 6 arc dodgers. But even then, Wedge and Vader only get Barrel Roll, Rau only gets boost or barrel roll, and whilst Fel can boost and barrel roll but needs to line up a fiddly boresight, not just get a shot, in order to have any tokens.

Points values can be changed, so if it's too good, the points will spiral up until it isn't. But the nature of 'ignore the rules' mechanics is that they tend to cliff-edge in their attractiveness and switch rapidly from broken to unusable without ever really hitting 'just right'

Still. Whatever Gunner Luke does, we're not going to change it now. And with the point of the App, etc, FFG doesn't want to have cards not saying what's printed on them so it is going to be very unlikely to change it at all.

We'll just have to see how it goes.

Why don't you guys let the second edition come out and see it on the table before you get all worked up? Especially you, @ficklegreendice

I still remember the blue coreset in x-wing, where the outcry of having to buy a new damage deck had FFG double-back on that statement in about a day. The old core set damage deck was tournament legal ever since

Pipe dream, sure, but this kind of nonsense really deserves far more outcry than the far improved Blue core damage deck

15 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Why don't you guys let the second edition come out and see it on the table before you get all worked up? Especially you, @ficklegreendice

because it does not matter what the second edition brings, gunner luke as currently spoiled is unacceptable in any context

Yeah i remember that, and everyone said it'd never happen but i never did have to buy the tfa core set

1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

because it does not matter what the second edition brings, gunner luke as currently spoiled is unacceptable in any context

Unacceptable? I get being disappointed in the design if you don't agree with it, but...I just don't get why anyone cares that much.

1 minute ago, gennataos said:

Unacceptable? I get being disappointed in the design if you don't agree with it, but...I just don't get why anyone cares that much.

it lends credence to all the "2.0 is a cashgrab/pointless" arguments by showing a clear of example of FFG missing the mark by a massive margin before the game has even been released

2.0 is supposed to be a marked improvement on 1.0, and it extensively tackles just about all the problems of that version. But Gunner Luke is just 1.0 turrets again. This is not a good sign.

I remember a thread like this from a long time ago....

I think it was about Kylo Ren going through shields on a 360 degree arc, which would obviously kill XWing totally and forever.

This thread was really big months before Kylo actually got published... and then... nothing happened.

Don't you guys think you're quite a bit overreacting right now?

Luke is going to be a good card probably... which is okay, as long as FFG adjusts the costs (online!). But hey... isn't Luke the most important Star Wars character ever? Why wouldn't he be good then?

Didn't fickle come up with the Kylo Ren Thread back then? Just wondering.... ?

1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

it lends credence to all the "2.0 is a cashgrab/pointless" arguments by showing a clear of example of FFG missing the mark by a massive margin before the game has even been released

2.0 is supposed to be a marked improvement on 1.0, and it extensively tackles just about all the problems of that version. But Gunner Luke is just 1.0 turrets again. This is not a good sign.

It's one crew card that can be placed on one ship on a new version of a game that hasn't even hit the table yet.

Don't you think this line of thinking is a little hyperbolic and doesn't really drive any sort of conversation? The card is a concern, yeah, it's been identified. To suggest that the entire second edition is a cash grab or points to the entire thing already going downhill before release is pretty silly. It's this kind of talk which makes these forums pretty crappy in the first place. There's very little conversation about strategy or tactics...it's primarily an echo chamber of complaints and defenses against those complaints.

tl;dr - I don't know what you think you're accomplishing.