And of course, we're also assuming that there won't be a better double tap gunner available for the Falcon.

40 minutes ago, Firespray-32 said:

Context.

In this case the context was teaching a new player the game with Quad TLT.

Or a fat turret, which is what the topic is about anyway. Just mention that because you‘re interested in the context...

We had a new guy, he learnt the game with quad tlt, and went on to place third at the next tournament.

Do you disagree that turreted ships are easier in general? Or do you disagree with the suggestion that all the parts except the core mechanic (arcs) can and maybe should be learned before that most difficult part is tackled?

6 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Talented players will be able to leverage the additional damage potential of the other Gunner upgrades and benefit more from it than they will Luke's insurance.

I think that this is a good point, that there may be potentially more that players can leverage from other upgrades. That said, one of my concerns is that the falcon still has two slots available.

It's not unlikely that we'll see other strong options there as well. Now, it's true that they might cost the combinations into oblivion, which is still poor design, imo, though they certainly have the tools to keep the competitive game balanced.

I think that the first reveal of the cost of a ship like the Falcon will be key; however, I wish they'd reveal costs/app before the official release. Those poor gencon folks are going to have all the tools to play the game except the one that they need to actually play a balanced game with their stuff.

1 minute ago, AlexW said:

I think that this is a good point, that there may be potentially more that players can leverage from other upgrades. That said, one of my concerns is that the falcon still has two slots available.

It's not unlikely that we'll see other strong options there as well. Now, it's true that they might cost the combinations into oblivion, which is still poor design, imo, though they certainly have the tools to keep the competitive game balanced.

I think that the first reveal of the cost of a ship like the Falcon will be key; however, I wish they'd reveal costs/app before the official release. Those poor gencon folks are going to have all the tools to play the game except the one that they need to actually play a balanced game with their stuff.

There's still 2.5 months to go before GenCon. Give them time.

Just now, thespaceinvader said:

There's still 2.5 months to go before GenCon. Give them time.

They've said the app won't be released until Sept.

17 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

You can disagree all you want fickle, you're still wrong. Myopically limiting the discussion to one ship or faction doesn't help your case either, because Luke the Upgrade doesn't exist in a vacuum.

Veteran Turret Gunner, Veteran Tail Gunner and Han Solo all allow for bonus attacks, which Luke does not. In terms of sheer damage output, their upside is potentially double that of Luke, or as near as. Bossk allows for a bonus attack if you missed the first - insurance against whiffing, which puts his usefulness about on par with Luke.

Luke's major benefit - using a force token to rotate arc - will only come into play if you're not capable of getting a target in arc in the first place, which most skilled players should be able to manage on a consistent enough basis. At which point Luke becomes little more than a passive modifier, or a defense against blocking, stress, ion or other counterplay. His damage output however will never increase. Talented players will be able to leverage the additional damage potential of the other Gunner upgrades and benefit more from it than they will Luke's insurance.

Oh, I'm talking in a vacuum but vet turret gunner always allows bonus attack

Uh-huh

You DO know how vet turret gunner works, right? You need two opponents, one in each firing arc. 1v1 it is already rendered utterly worthless. Furthermore, the yt isn't a hwk, shadow caster or Y. Your two opponents have to be on opposite sides of you

If youve ever glanced at an SF you know that such a state doesn't happen every turn...or every game...or sometimes every five games...

There is no "talented player" nonsense, this is NOR easy to pull off let alone against a player of "equal skill". Believing the opposite to be the case is what thinking in a vacuum looks like a

Meanwhole Luke ALWAYS does something significant every round regardless of skill level. He also invalidates your opponent's efforts to avoid your shots or greatly increasing your ability to avoid blocks and arcs by affording you the ability to not care about your arc facing

Luke works this way objectively. There is no way to stop him short of landing the falcon on a rock (even then he still rotates) regardless of any further context

Meanwhile, experience with SF clearly illustrate how rarely double arc double tap gets set up, used, and accomplishes anything significant

All this just by glancing at how it interacts with the opponent and realizing the it providing extra attacks is FAR from a done deal

3 minutes ago, AlexW said:

They've said the app won't be released until Sept.

They've also said the release date of the game is September 13th. But GenCon people are getting it early.

I really, REALLY hope they're not intending to launch the app cold on 13 September. If it falls over on day 0, which seems likely without a large scale public beta/load test, that would look SO bad.

4 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Meanwhole Luke ALWAYS does something significant every round regardless of skill level.

Even though that significant something might be turning one focus into a hit - at a price point that does hopefully not justify this single mod.

5 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Even though that significant something might be turning one focus into a hit - at a price point that does hopefully not justify this single mod.

it's never that simple

as an opponent facing down gunner luke, you're back to a 1.0 turret mentality in that you now have to account for every possible position the yt could be (post boost) while it still effortlessly gets shots against you. Against a rotate mobile arc, you can far better predict where you could go that would be safe for your squad, or where you could go to threaten the falcon while suffering no retaliation in return if it chooses to run away or tank up

the sheer range of options gunner Luke opens up for the yt is always relevant beyond the forcus, that mod is just sweet gravy that makes the upgrade even better than it already has a right to be

a so called "skilled player" will take far greater advantage of that than a super-situational double tap against a very obliging opponent

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

Even though that significant something might be turning one focus into a hit - at a price point that does hopefully not justify this single mod.

That price point would have to be significantly higher than let's say Veteran Turret Gunner for it not to be justified. In X-wing 1.0, concentrating your firepower was key to victory, and I see little changed in 2.0 in regard to that, apart from half points on everything. As such, one attack with a mod (Luke gunner) will often be preferable to 2 attacks with no mods against different targets (Veteran Turret Gunner).

24 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Or a fat turret, which is what the topic is about anyway. Just mention that because you‘re interested in the context...

We had a new guy, he learnt the game with quad tlt, and went on to place third at the next tournament.

With Quad TLT?

I think anything that strips X-Wing of its core mechanic is bad. The old 360 turrets, which ignored maneuvering almost entirely. The original TIE phantom which only needed to dial a hard-1 then decided where to go based on where you'd gone. The Palp Aces lists that could just tank any shots you got on them on the rare turns they failed to post-maneuver reposition away. The most wildly unpopular lists in X-Wing history have always been the ones that strip away X-Wing's core maneuver dial mechanic.

Quote

Or do you disagree with the suggestion that all the parts except the core mechanic (arcs) can and maybe should be learned before that most difficult part is tackled?

If you want to teach X-Wing do what the Core Set does: strip away the range bonuses, obstacles, pilot abilities, et cetera, until later. Put some generic X-wings against some generic TIEs. That's much more representative of X-wing's core design than Quad TLT or the original PWTs. 360 turret vs 360 turret is pretty much just Ludo.

27 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

They've also said the release date of the game is September 13th. But GenCon people are getting it early.

I really, REALLY hope they're not intending to launch the app cold on 13 September. If it falls over on day 0, which seems likely without a large scale public beta/load test, that would look SO bad.

Right now, it looks like that is the case. I don't know how they make a free app and just release it for people at Gencon.

14 minutes ago, Firespray-32 said:

With Quad TLT?

Yes

14 minutes ago, Firespray-32 said:

I think anything that strips X-Wing of its core mechanic is bad. The old 360 turrets, which ignored maneuvering almost entirely. The original TIE phantom which only needed to dial a hard-1 then decided where to go based on where you'd gone. The Palp Aces lists that could just tank any shots you got on them on the rare turns they failed to post-maneuver reposition away. The most wildly unpopular lists in X-Wing history have always been the ones that strip away X-Wing's core maneuver dial mechanic.

And I 100% agree! I said so repeatedly, and I demonstrated it for years with the squads I was flying.

15 minutes ago, Firespray-32 said:

If you want to teach X-Wing do what the Core Set does: strip away the range bonuses, obstacles, pilot abilities, et cetera, until later. Put some generic X-wings against some generic TIEs. That's much more representative of X-wing's core design than Quad TLT or the original PWTs. 360 turret vs 360 turret is pretty much just Ludo.

And later it is pretty useful to put a turret on the table and learn all the other important stuff.

And then comes the actual learning of maneuvering. It is not useful to tackle that before the other components are understood.

19 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

That price point would have to be significantly higher than let's say Veteran Turret Gunner for it not to be justified.

Yes, which is what I‘m expecting. Either initially or after GunnerLuke really was as horribly gamedestroying as people here are afraid of. FFG can adjust and the problem is solved. Ideally they adjust to a point where he is just barely worth it.

having thought about it, gunner luke is acceptable in one context

that is the 3 die primary, 2 die mobile arc (so hwk, lancer is scum only)

in this case, being forced into your mobile arc still imposes a penalty of -1 red die. That is acceptable, as it represents an actual consequence to failing to catch your opponent in your arc. And really, that's all I ask for.

so if gunner Luke came with a "don't get cocky" clause that limited your attack to 2 dice, he'd be pretty well designed

48 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

I really, REALLY hope they're not intending to launch the app cold on 13 September. If it falls over on day 0, which seems likely without a large scale public beta/load test, that would look SO bad.

If it's offline, and just downloads everything onto your device, there's no particular reason heavy load would be an issue; the app will just be distributed by google/apple's existing infrastructure.

8 minutes ago, svelok said:

If it's offline, and just downloads everything onto your device, there's no particular reason heavy load would be an issue; the app will just be distributed by google/apple's existing infrastructure.

Stop saying heavy load it's killing me not to make the obvious jokes.

2 minutes ago, Hobojebus said:

Stop saying heavy load it's killing me not to make the obvious jokes.

gunner luke is a heavy load

53 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

gunner luke is a heavy load

I think you’re all in a froth for nothing. I don’t think Luke works on the pwt ships. Look at the symbol on the Luke’s card and the pw symbol on the falcon.

He’s still there, but no fat Han.

2 minutes ago, player3314088 said:

I think you’re all in a froth for nothing. I don’t think Luke works on the pwt ships. Look at the symbol on the Luke’s card and the pw symbol on the falcon.

He’s still there, but no fat Han.

You're arguing that Luke isn't a 180-degree turret?

2 minutes ago, Glucose98 said:

You're arguing that Luke isn't a 180-degree turret?

He does have the single mobile arc symbol. Hm...

Falcon has a double, right?

Haha, inbefore „why can‘t I put Luke on the Falcon?!?!“

Pretty sure the single nub indicator is to account for all ship types, both single and double mobile arcs

Otherwise, why would Han specify not being able to shoot out of the same mobile arc indicator?

It's far easier to just have 1 indicator printed on cards than having to constantly specify 1 (Y, hwk, vcx) and/or 2 (yts, k)

No deeply held opinion per se, just pointing it out.

If you can’t put Luke Gunner on a Falcon, i will stop playing. But that’s not something FFG would do, period.

It’s a combo that is just so known from the movies, nobody would dare to make this impossible.

I am normally all for balance > anything else, but in this case... Luke is literally in the Falcon in the first ever SW movie, gunning down TIEs, so nobody can tell me this combo is not working in the game.