1 hour ago, player44455 said:

This is also my biggest worry so far for 2.0. The low-health aces seem to have taken a big hit with their reduced token stacking abilities, removed Autothursters and nerfed evade action.

All these changes are quite understandable and justified, because in 1.0 some of these top-efficient aces had also excellent jousting values, besides having great arc-dodging capabilities.

However they will need to be signifficantly cheaper in 2.0 to make them a competitive choice over a Defender..

But we have not seen everything yet, and a solid 1 or 2 upgrades (such as the 1.0 Autothrusters) could bring them back in force..

The whole point if 2.0 is to not need hard counter upgrades like 1.0 Autotrhusters to make ships playable... at least that is what I thought....

I feel like I won't convince a bunch of you that Luke gunner is bad game design and has no purpose in the game but to break it. you guys all really seem to want him in the game for some reason (a crutch for weak players and useless for strong players or some such thing like that clearly admits that if he was costed to be good for everyone he would break the game). I think I will bow out of this, sorry @ficklegreendice i just do not have the stamina.

Eh, what can we do?

Worst thing happens is we suffer for God knows how long under yet another fat Han until ffg nerfs it into worthlessness

The only really sad thing here is that some don't see the rather blatant design error that gunner Luke explicitly presents to 2.0, or that they could find it at all similar to the mobile arc rotate action

And that some believe it'll be okay because we can introduce counter upgrades, as if we hadn't already seen where that led 1.0

It's a rather startling unwillingness to employ basic reading comprehension and pattern recognition, as well as a lack of appreciation for the work ffg put into the 2.0 mobile arcs

I'm not saying the detractors don't have it, but they're not utilizing it because "eh it'll be fine, despite having no reason to exist"

All disappointing, but fortunately we're not dealing with anything more than a game

10 minutes ago, El Scorcho said:

If most people agree that undercosted Gunner Luke would be OP but that he can also potentially be so expensive that he is trash, wouldn't that mean that there is likely a price point where Gunner Luke is balanced?

Not necessarily. Wargames like x-wing have complicated relations between various element, it isn't just a straight power curve. It could be "fair" but still exert a warping effect on how people play the game (the actual definition of meta). I am not convinced it is/will, but that is what people like FGD are complaining about more than whether or not the card is balanced power-wise

13 minutes ago, Icelom said:

I feel like I won't convince a bunch of you that Luke gunner is bad game design and has no purpose in the game but to break it. you guys all really seem to want him in the game for some reason

No, they would just like you guys to stop moaning about it at EVERY SINGLE OPPORTUNITY. It has been hashed to death at this point, talk about something else related to the game and wait and see what develops.

4 minutes ago, Forgottenlore said:

No, they would just like you guys to stop moaning about it at EVERY SINGLE OPPORTUNITY. It has been hashed to death at this point, talk about something else related to the game and wait and see what develops.

I mean I literally said I am going to stop moaning about it in this thread and your response is to moan about me....

while you started a brand new thread to moan about people who are concerned about it.... really man?

12 minutes ago, Forgottenlore said:

Not necessarily. Wargames like x-wing have complicated relations between various element, it isn't just a straight power curve. It could be "fair" but still exert a warping effect on how people play the game (the actual definition of meta). I am not convinced it is/will, but that is what people like FGD are complaining about more than whether or not the card is balanced power-wise

I guess I just don't follow the logic that something can be overcosted and still be meta warping. If tlt had been 12 pts it would not have had a negative impact on the meta since it would not be played ever. That's an extreme example but if Gunner Luke is costed in a way that is balanced it wouldn't be strong enough to warp the meta but also not be a bad pick at the same time.

I would rather not have this upgrade exist at all but it seems that it's going to in some form. I do think it can be balanced cost wise, however.

15 minutes ago, Icelom said:

while you started a brand new thread to moan about people who are concerned about it.... really man?

Huh? The last thread I started was almost 3 weeks ago?

edit, Oh, I know what happened. You confused me with Rakydos because we have the same avatar pic. Easy mistake. Gets really confusing when there are 3 of us with that pic having an argument, totally looks like I am schizophrenic.

3 minutes ago, El Scorcho said:

I guess I just don't follow the logic that something can be overcosted and still be meta warping. If tlt had been 12 pts it would not have had a negative impact on the meta since it would not be played ever. That's an extreme example but if Gunner Luke is costed in a way that is balanced it wouldn't be strong enough to warp the meta but also not be a bad pick at the same time.

I would rather not have this upgrade exist at all but it seems that it's going to in some form. I do think it can be balanced cost wise, however.

The point I was making was that the sweet spot where it is "balanced" point wise could still negatively impact the game. Obviously if it costs 87 points it won't have any effect at all, and equally obviously, if it costs 1 point it will effect the meta, but that does not necessarily mean there is a point where it works because the point where it is "balanced" and the point where it does not unhealthily impact the meta may not overlap.

And again, I am just trying to explain the different sides to people here, because some of the people here are starting to talk past each other and are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

1 minute ago, Forgottenlore said:

And again, I am just trying to explain the different sides to people here, because some of the people here are starting to talk past each other and are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Fair enough, I guess maybe "fair" shouldn't be the goal then? If there was a price that didn't warp the meta and wasn't unplayable if that exists?

Sorry if I came off as argumentative, that was not my intent.

18 minutes ago, Forgottenlore said:

Huh? The last thread I started was almost 3 weeks ago?

edit, Oh, I know what happened. You confused me with Rakydos because we have the same avatar pic. Easy mistake. Gets really confusing when there are 3 of us with that pic having an argument, totally looks like I am schizophrenic.

Sorry about that.

3 minutes ago, Icelom said:

Sorry about that.

No worries. I once read a post and went “when the heck did I type that?”

If it ends up being broken and impossible to balance, there's also nothing limiting them from an errata. They've said they don't want to do it, but it's not like the tool is being taken completely out of the kit.

I'm still amazed by the number of people that will defend literally any card that exists. TLT, Palp, Freaking Whisper 1.0! Somebody will claim that anyone that complains about a card is just a whinging nerfherder. It's crazy. Designers make mistakes sometimes. Somebody has to point them out.

Miranda could still win events with a 12 point TLT. It's a good example of a card that just cannot be priced correctly. It's too consistent against too many things.

The issue with Luke is not whether he will dominate the meta. It is just so glaringly obvious that by adding "action" or changing the timing window, you get a card that does not utterly deemphasize dials and maneuvering.

Half the forums seemed to think X7 Defenders were fine before the Nerf. They weren't for some of the exact same reasons that Luke is a bad idea.

So, I was not around for "fat Han" meta.

Half points was not around during that time right? Fat Han was the cause of the half point rule right?

So, Luke crew is pretty good, and hopefully is expensive in points, but I am not sure if "Fat Han" meta will be back. Especially with likely changes to 3po and R2 crew, etc. AND half points on the Falcon.

_________________

I think the issue would be more with generics taking it, thus negating higher PS arc dodge.

However, everytime you get a kill by either rotating for the shot with Luke, or spending his force token, you should be required to yell, "I GOT ONE."

And just like Uno, if you do not call, and your opponent calls you on it, you must draw 4 damage cards and assign them to the ship Luke is on.

This has been an amusing week. Look closely at the spoiled cards. You all have eyes, but do not see.

So I played a proxy game of 2.0 with the BOLS lists. I ran the rebs.

Dutch got a shot off with the turret every single turn, even the turn when he had 3 unrepaired Crits.

Seriously, flying in a big circle OP.

Of course he didn't hit anything, since they were mostly unmodified shots for various reasons but the turn he hauled a red turn with a damaged thrusters and sensor array and ionized Vader with naked dice was glorious (Vader had spent his force and tokens avoiding Wedge and Luke - things were bad for the Empire)

this post doesn't have anything to do with a realistic assessment of whether gunner Luke is a real issue but then again neither does this *ten page thread of chicken little*

tldr Luke is either a free rotate at I7 or a soft focus. Both of these have a market price. Neither are fat Han without a bunch of survivability mods we haven't seen. So eh? Not terrible?

I have to throw my hat into the "Luke is terrible design" ring. There is zero reason for him to exist in his current state, as he single handedly reverses all of the work they did in converting all of the pwts into mobile arcs. Forget Han, put him on Dash and make Interceptors obsolete on day 1. You can still just putz around the map, doing whatever maneuver you like, and just kill whatever you feel like, because you don't have an arc to worry about. GG FFG.

1 hour ago, HolySorcerer said:

I have to throw my hat into the "Luke is terrible design" ring. There is zero reason for him to exist in his current state, as he single handedly reverses all of the work they did in converting all of the pwts into mobile arcs. Forget Han, put him on Dash and make Interceptors obsolete on day 1. You can still just putz around the map, doing whatever maneuver you like, and just kill whatever you feel like, because you don't have an arc to worry about. GG FFG.

I'm betting you any small ship expansion Dash won't have a Gunner slot.

2 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

There is zero reason for him to exist in his current state, as he single handedly reverses all of the work they did in converting all of the pwts into mobile arcs.

My only other thought on this part of it all is whether they found that the mobile arc mechanic actually gives fat turrets too much of a hit to be viable in 2nd Edition. In which case this is a more limited and controllable way of keeping the archetype alive.

16 hours ago, wurms said:

The card , OP or not, is bad for the game. Period. He could cost 1pt or 50pts, doesnt matter. The card should not be in the game.

This ^^

That ability (PWT) has been in the game for an age. It was problematic not purely because it existed, but it existed “at no cost”.

2.0 adds cost;

1. Arcs are not 360. So even if you can freely rotate an Arc your options of target are not unlimited.

2. It ‘costs’ resource to change Arc. Be that an Action, or a Force token (in Luke’s case). That’s an opportunity cost because you could be do something else. It also adds a decision burden on the player. (Do I save my force token to modify dice? Or rotate Arc?)

3. It costs a crew slot. To do something you could previously take for granted. Again this is an opportunity cost and a decision burden during Turn 0.

4. It has a point cost. This has consequences for your entire list (not just one specific ship).

5. It has inherent vulnerabilities - for example to Stress effects.

Ands it point 5 where I think Luke fits above all. He mitigates a turret ship, like the Falcon, succumbing to a high stress meta.

In one of the 2.0 videos, one of the developers (Alex?) was talking about how the app creates a lot of opportunities for Organised Play to change events and the way we play.

Now this could mean two functions on the app, picture this:

Main screen with the X wing logo, looking magnificent, the latest version number proudly displayed in the corner and then user is presented with two buttons:
Squad Builder
Organised Play

Squad Builder has every ship and upgrade, with the current mod slots and points of the current version.

Organised Play leads you to a second screen with the following tabs:

Quarterly Kit
Store Championship
Regional
National
SOS
European
Worlds

You select one and the squad builder opens as normal, EXCEPT it has the cards, points and upgrade slots currently applicable for that set of events. This allows OP to remove a card from the squad builder should it be massively problematic or adjust its points value for that set.

For example, Luke Gunner becomes massively popular (OP can see this via the amount of Luke Gunners being used in events or maybe marked in the app as "used" or something, I dunno) during the Store Championship series and decides to pull the trigger, removing the card from Regional Circulation. You can't build a Regional list with that card anymore.

No errata or FAQ required. Just a simple message to flash up as you select the level of event you are attending, notifying you of the current changes.

Done.

13 minutes ago, Viktus106 said:

In one of the 2.0 videos, one of the developers (Alex?) was talking about how the app creates a lot of opportunities for Organised Play to change events and the way we play.

Now this could mean two functions on the app, picture this:

Main screen with the X wing logo, looking magnificent, the latest version number proudly displayed in the corner and then user is presented with two buttons:
Squad Builder
Organised Play

Squad Builder has every ship and upgrade, with the current mod slots and points of the current version.

Organised Play leads you to a second screen with the following tabs:

Quarterly Kit
Store Championship
Regional
National
SOS
European
Worlds

You select one and the squad builder opens as normal, EXCEPT it has the cards, points and upgrade slots currently applicable for that set of events. This allows OP to remove a card from the squad builder should it be massively problematic or adjust its points value for that set.

For example, Luke Gunner becomes massively popular (OP can see this via the amount of Luke Gunners being used in events or maybe marked in the app as "used" or something, I dunno) during the Store Championship series and decides to pull the trigger, removing the card from Regional Circulation. You can't build a Regional list with that card anymore.

No errata or FAQ required. Just a simple message to flash up as you select the level of event you are attending, notifying you of the current changes.

Done.

Exactly this.

The down side is that players will lobby aggressively to bump off cards that they struggle against.

How that effects the game we will have to wait and see.

Whats encouraging is that we may see thematic formats come out. So you open the app and you see:

Dog fighting (no large based ships)

Heavy assault (only medium & large based ships)

“insert podcast name here” invitational (no force users)

etc etc

Player and community made formats for your store or easily accessible to copy and play at home. A nice option would be the ability to ‘like’ formats you’ve played. Enjoyed the last game of “no Luke Gunner, Leave your Falcon in the box” format? Award it 5 stars.

And that means we can have a huge range of upgrades suitable for a range of formats. Customisable for the community and by the community. And for *that* reason the card board needs to be in the box.

8 hours ago, Forgottenlore said:

edit, Oh, I know what happened. You confused me with Rakydos because we have the same avatar pic. Easy mistake. Gets really confusing when there are 3 of us with that pic having an argument, totally looks like I am schizophrenic.

@ficklegreendice and I have had the same issue. Of course, I actually do talk rubbish then forget what I've posted, so it's more of a problem in my case.

10 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

completely disregarding the 2.0 mission statement

Well for me Luke Gunner not only disregards the 2.0 mission statement, but it reinforces it! Here is what I mean. ONLY f@cking Luke Skywalker, Jedi Hero of Legends can bring something quite similar to 1.0 PWT...
And he is just one unique upgrade card for a very specific and limited slot.
If it was a free 'action' it would have been perfect imo, but still it doesn't seem that broken or meta defining to me...
Anyway we only have to wait and see.