3 minutes ago, nexttwelveexits said:

This.

If Fat Han/Gunner Luke is a really good list, but you can beat it with good flying and there are also some list archetypes it will struggle against, then the game's in a good place.

If it's so strong that every other list must take seismics specifically to counter Han or die a fiery death, then something will need to change (and, good news, the devs have actually given themselves multiple means to make adjustments in 2.0).

And the interesting part is they can target the combo of Han+Luke (make luke super expensive for Han only) if need be. So the card could still be reasonably selected for the YT-2400 (which -- I do wonder, is going to be scary in its own way?)

The meta will be driven by what people figure out ships can do relative to points. To over-simplify, the are 3 factors: game components, players, & points.

If even a pre-fix 1.0 T-65 cost 10pts...people would run X swarms and it would be OP.

FFG now have a built in method to adjust one of those factors. I see lots of things in 2.0 reveals that illustrate the devs are paying attention. This gives me hope that they will apply this method well.

A rebellion is built on hope!

13 minutes ago, Gallanteer said:

I can almost guarantee that even though the kits will be available at GenCon, the new App to build squads won't come out till the official launch. You can try the game and new cards but only with the prebuilt build cards and the threat level thingy. Therefore you won't be able to get ahead of everyone else.

....and therefore no Meta.

I would find it difficult to believe the app won't have a soft release for Gencon. The app is going to have to work properly right out of the gate on the official release and that's going to be difficult to do without letting people play around with it before the official release to work out any potential issues.

6 minutes ago, Glucose98 said:

And the interesting part is they can target the combo of Han+Luke (make luke super expensive for Han only) if need be. So the card could still be reasonably selected for the YT-2400 (which -- I do wonder, is going to be scary in its own way?)

I can easily envision a meta in which Dash wins the 1v1 fat turret matchup against Han by virtue of sheer dice, but Han is much stronger against aces, and both struggle against dedicated jousters and ordnance carriers while being better-than-average against swarms and mini-swarms.

That's definitely super optimistic hopeful thinking on my part but that's the kind of thing I hope shakes out, that there are at least 3-4 list archetypes and each has weaknesses that aren't easily covered up and each archetype has more than one viable list.

29 minutes ago, nexttwelveexits said:

This.

If Fat Han/Gunner Luke is a really good list, but you can beat it with good flying and there are also some list archetypes it will struggle against, then the game's in a good place.

If it's so strong that every other list must take seismics specifically to counter Han or die a fiery death, then something will need to change (and, good news, the devs have actually given themselves multiple means to make adjustments in 2.0).

I see your logic.

But it is baseless in the argument.

Either FFG destroys the cancer of 360 turrets or they don't.

Let's hope they did, but it seems they didn't = STUPID!!!!!!!

16 minutes ago, miguelj said:

I would find it difficult to believe the app won't have a soft release for Gencon. The app is going to have to work properly right out of the gate on the official release and that's going to be difficult to do without letting people play around with it before the official release to work out any potential issues.

That's what an IT QA and testing team is for.

10 minutes ago, Gallanteer said:

That's what an IT QA and testing team is for.

There's only so much IT testing and QA can do when you're talking about an app with mass scale use, even the relatively small mass scales of x-wing. In particular, they'll need to do some heavy load testing to make sure it can keep up with the demands of the whole play community using it at once, and they'll want to do it before the official release date.

If they don't there's a very good chance of it falling over on release day and that would look SO dang bad.

Given other game + app thingies, I'd expect the app no more than 2 weeks early. Then it might see a significant update for the actual release.

So much will be known/leaked by then that I'd imagine what people suppose the meta will be, will kick in almost straight away.

I know there's been some concern over the Luke gunner ability, but there's still an easy counter - come at the ship from two angles. Luke can only turn to face one, but with a swarm you basically negate any advantage Luke may offer. He only excels vs high priced aces - keeping his guns on the important targets. I don't see how he's so incredibly powerful, or at least as powerful as the reactionary vitriol his card has been indicating.

As far as the new meta goes, I look forward to there not being one. I feel this new version of the game opens doors for every ship to be viable - that seems to be the point of the 2.0 reboot. I want to fly Interceptors again! And X-Wings! And A-Wings! And now there's a reason to buy more than one TIE Advanced Prototype - I'm looking forward to seeing how they play in a group. There's SO much to explore. It's an exciting time for us as players.

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

popular can be ignored, imo

there will always be a "best". It is unavoidable...it is your DESTINY

but as long as "best" isn't "torp scouts" or "miranda" level of utter curbstomping dominance, we're going to be aokay. The gap between what's best and what's good should be as narrow as possible, and so long as it is not insurmountable then the game will be perfectly fine

Yeah. Basically so long as those best lists don't require skill bordering on clairvoyance to beat but barely a pulse to operate, we will be fine.

FFG can not only update the costs but also the available upgrades per ship. Metas will become unstable or at least more tempramental anyway. Imagine if they suddenly decide that the Falcon is no longer allowed to have Luke as a gunner but allow other gunners or in fact deny it any gunner (extreme unthemaric example I know). They could easily do that now via the app.

I don't think that's a bad thing BTW. But metas as they are now may become less influencial in the way people put their squads together and, because of it, can only help stimulate creativity.

This fear of a return if Fat Han with Luke gunner is groundless. What was it about Fat Han that was miserable? The ability to Boost and/or BR away to avoid most shots, have C-3PO to avoid one good shot, and the ability to fire modded dice 360.

With new set up you can either Boost or BR, but then can't modify your attacks. Oh, you can if Han is near an obstacle, but only 1 die and only if at R1. If you know Han is wanting to be near obstacles, it's going to be easy to predict him. It's not going to be possible to be near obstacles every time. To think he's going to be unpredictable with modded dice is silly.

Han is still just shooting 3 red dice and probably unmodified half the time. That's not so bad. There are pilots like Iden in Tie that can block all damage from one attack. Even a Tie Fighter has a good chance of not being one shot from Han if he takes a Focus or Evade.

Han is also easy to block. Stick one Tie Fighter out in front and you can have an easy time blocking him each round. Once you do it, it's pretty easy to get to a spot that the big base will hit. Even Tie Fighters can knock Han down fast when they know where he will be and with no green tokens.

The new Han won't be able to avoid your firing arcs like before and he can't avoid your damage like before. Sure, he will always have a shot, but so will you.

2 hours ago, Gallanteer said:

I can almost guarantee that even though the kits will be available at GenCon, the new App to build squads won't come out till the official launch. You can try the game and new cards but only with the prebuilt build cards and the threat level thingy. Therefore you won't be able to get ahead of everyone else.

....and therefore no Meta.

I doubt they won't have at least a beta version of the app ready for Gencon release. Not doing so would piss off a lot of people and make very few (if any) happy, so I don't think it's a smart thing for FFG to do.

As a side-note it's also unlikely that FFG wold want to tweak stuff too often, unless a really large problem is noticed. If you make the meta too unstable, it might drive many invested players away.

24 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

I doubt they won't have at least a beta version of the app ready for Gencon release. Not doing so would piss off a lot of people and make very few (if any) happy, so I don't think it's a smart thing for FFG to do.

As a side-note it's also unlikely that FFG wold want to tweak stuff too often, unless a really large problem is noticed. If you make the meta too unstable, it might drive many invested players away.

In reality, I would expect changes to occur at the same pace as the erratas used to appear. But initially it may be more frequent.

How can Farmboy Han ever hope to stand up to the might of GUNBOAT? The Falcon’s hull is just aching for exposed damage cards. GUNBOAT, Bombers, Stele, Vader; that flying pancake is breakfast for them all.

4 hours ago, RedHotDice said:

The Meta in 2.0 is clear:

Fat Han+Luke(crew) will dominate, set dial to 3 turn and profit.

Sorry for being unclear:

set dial to 3 left-turn circling that center rock (to use Han's free reroll), boost to get out of arc (if necessary), use Luke(crew) to adjust mobile arc such that you have arc one the enemy and the enemy do not, fire (again use Han's free reroll as U are circling/hugging a rock at R1), rinse repeat until all enemy ships are dead, and then you win.

I think Luke(crew) will get an errata even before the 2.0 is released. This game is turning into modern computer games, who have a 1GB day one patch.. haha

2 minutes ago, GrimmyV said:

How can Farmboy Han ever hope to stand up to the might of GUNBOAT? The Falcon’s hull is just aching for exposed damage cards. GUNBOAT, Bombers, Stele, Vader; that flying pancake is breakfast for them all.

I can see a number of generic Tie Advanced punching through those shields and critical hitting the heck out of it.

1 minute ago, RedHotDice said:

Sorry for being unclear:

set dial to 3 left-turn circling that center rock (to use Han's free reroll), boost to get out of arc (if necessary), use Luke(crew) to adjust mobile arc such that you have arc one the enemy and the enemy do not, fire (again use Han's free reroll as U are circling/hugging a rock at R1), rinse repeat until all enemy ships are dead, and then you win.

Ha! Just stick a Tie Fighter in front of Han and he gets no actions! Then, all your ships get to fire at R1 because you knew he would be there. 1 adjusted evade die would not stand up to sustained fire.

Or ionized him and he can't do the 3 hard turn.

Or use seismic charges to blow up the asteroid! He can't use it then.

Or blast him with ordnance because he sure as heck is being predictable.

Without C-3PO and/or R2-D2 he has no defense against your attacks.

With only 1 die adjustment his attacks aren't going to be worth that much.

2 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Ha! Just stick a Tie Fighter in front of Han and he gets no actions! Then, all your ships get to fire at R1 because you knew he would be there. 1 adjusted evade die would not stand up to sustained fire.

Or ionized him and he can't do the 3 hard turn.

Or use seismic charges to blow up the asteroid! He can't use it then.

Or blast him with ordnance because he sure as heck is being predictable.

Without C-3PO and/or R2-D2 he has no defense against your attacks.

With only 1 die adjustment his attacks aren't going to be worth that much.

I totally get where you are comming from, but the problem is a TIE swarm dies to so many other lists.. I does not matter there is a good counter if that list is not viable.. Han+Luke SKEWS the meta.

All these counter Han strategies are textbook examples of "easier said than done"

He's just as difficult to get in arc as ever, he's more resilenet to multiple attacks thanks to new title and who knows what else, and he now needs 3 ions to ionize plus you need to roll in excess of 1 uncanceled damage to start ionizing him with cannons/turrets

Seismic charges without launch will take several turns to set up, and also leave you without attacks as you need to point your **** at rocks

Whatever the final state he shows up in, he's still currently WAY too close to his old self for comfort in a version where THEY FIXED 1.0 TURRETS and where we no longer have 1.0 autothrusters

It is objectively bad game design that actively contradicts all the effort the designers put into 2.0 and into making the falcon a mobile arc in the first place

16 minutes ago, GrimmyV said:

How can Farmboy Han ever hope to stand up to the might of GUNBOAT? The Falcon’s hull is just aching for exposed damage cards. GUNBOAT, Bombers, Stele, Vader; that flying pancake is breakfast for them all.

And don't forget the new concussion missiles, which turn old damage faceup too.

On May 21, 2018 at 10:27 AM, clanofwolves said:

I see your logic.

But it is baseless in the argument.

Either FFG destroys the cancer of 360 turrets or they don't.

Let's hope they did, but it seems they didn't = STUPID!!!!!!!

Or there are those that want Han and Luke to have a unique playstyle together that is powerful, and FFG have fulfilled that need. Call it easy level for kids, but I have no problem with it in such a limited, and playable, manner. Forego your mods for a swingy, probably expensive, turret. Cool! Choice is what the game is built on.

To pretend that the turret is as 360 and modifiable as before is disengenuous. It is now a choice.

Honestly, after watching some of the demo games and the utter inability for the TIEs to cause meaningful damage to Luke, I'm way more afraid of standard TIEs vs. Han and Luke in their own ships than the two of them together...

17 minutes ago, RedHotDice said:

I totally get where you are comming from, but the problem is a TIE swarm dies to so many other lists.. I does not matter there is a good counter if that list is not viable.. Han+Luke SKEWS the meta.

How can you say that? The game isn't even out yet? Also, doesn't have to be a swarm, but just include a few Ties.

Well the predictions I used (Int 6 or bust vs Swarms) is based upon early 1st edition meta and what tools are used. Now of course the flexible point model does come into consideration and even with a 200 point limit I can still see many pilot/upgrades/ships where a 1 point difference could mean a ship is either way above the power curve or buried 6 feet under it.

However there are some things from first edition that can prove just as effective in predicting power in second edition. Example the Pilot Skill smile curve. Being the bet pilot skills are 0,1 and 9,10,11, 7 is the lowest initiative since VI can bump it up to 9 2 is not as good as 1 in blocking and 3 is when they start becoming ineffective as blockers so the worst was 4-6.

So the furthest to the ends you get the most power. The same will be for initiative even if they reduced the scale. So the most powerful initiative will be either 1 or 6 with the worst being 3 and 4 initiative. Blocking and action control will still be a thing even though PTL has been replaced by linked actions. IMHO pricing upon initiative increase should be no increase from Initiative 1 to 3 unless there is a really powerful pilot ability (i.e. Biggs). From 1 to 4 should be the cost of an upgrade. From 1 to 5 should be the cost of the cheapest ship (i.e. Academy pilot). For Int 6 it should cost double the amount of the Int 1 pilot. (Soonter Fel should cost 2 Alpha Squadrons). That will keep the middle initiative values on par with the lower initiative since you need to field them in multiples and the higher initiative since taking them will be reducing your squadron size by at least a ship.

So yeah initial meta depending on point pricing will be either Swarms, or Int 6 or Bust.