I'm looking for some guidance from a wide pool of Rogue Trader players on a matter that concerns me.

I've never enjoyed RT as much as Dark Heresy. Whilst I was, for a long time, unable to pin down exactly why, one phrase seemed to resound in my skull. Rogue Trader: you're doing it wrong .

With the recent struggle to secure ourselves a wrecked cruiser upon which to construct a mighty warship, I haven't had a lot of time for self-indulgent introspection, in character, but I do tend to feel a bit superfluous in battle. I dispense peptalks like some sort of +10 Stat Check vending machine. I strike heroic poses and charge gamely into close combat (and, had the dice not hated me last game, that plasma pistol of mine would have put some serious hurt on the enemy).

Ultimately, though, I feel like it wouldn't make a massive difference if I wasn't there at all. And I feel like I have somehow missed an important core of being a Rogue Trader. If I was a huge, bombastic Lord-Captain with an ego my ship's Geller Field struggled to encompass, I wouldn't care whether I was useful or not. Maybe attempting to create fairness and equality for the crew, aside from being a tad radical in the 40k universe, was an inherently bad idea.

But aside from my suspicion that I've created a RT doomed to angst and failure, I think my core problem with Rogue Trader is this: what is it all for?

In DH, my lowly (and less lowly) acolytes have many things they aspire to, climbing various career ladders and saving up to buy new armour or weaponry. What does my RT aspire to? A cruiser? A swimming pool? A harem to go around the edge of said pool? At the heart of it, I started the game right at the top, and there is nowhere left for me to climb.

As I've already stated, I think I'm missing the point of this whole system (from a RT perspective, anyway. The other classes seem more functional and have a clearer progression to my eye), so if anyone could enlighten me, I would be extremely appreciative!

You started at the top? Well there is a top and there the top. Ever climbed a hill? Everytime you get to the top you discover that there is another top on that hill and that what you thought was the top isn't. So you are a Rogue Trader. Outside the Empire you are the word of the Emperor. And amongst your peers you are probably just an upstart. Youknow they got warrants to, plus a fleet of ships, a couple of planets to rule over and there are gbooks written abouttheir exploits.

And once you return to the Empire what are you then? A man with a Cruiser and a little bit of money. Well there are millions of Governors that are at least as important as you are. So You have reached the top you say? Not by a long shot. The motto of the game is Ambitions has no Bounds. You are not ambitious enough yet.

What's it all for?

Basically, engage that mostly useless, wobbly part of your brain that likes drug abuse, sex, shiny things and is a loud annoying attention ***** thats so obnoxious no one can ignore your presence, then throw away most of the sensible bits- the sensible things are looked after by seneshals, navigators and voidsmen.

You just sort of wiggle the finger at the direction of what you want done roughly and they come up with a way that might not get everyone killed.

In many ways RT is the hardest 40k RPG to get to grips with. Which to me makes it the most interesting. I personally think that the 3 games provide a tiered hierarchy of roleplaying complexity:

- Deathwatch will likely be (despite FFGs best efforts to add nuance) primarily a combat orientated game, making it the easist to run and play.

- Dark Heresy has more opportunities for interaction and investigation, providing a good balance between these factors and combat

- Rogue Trader is a hard-to-get- to-grips-with, hard-to-get-your-head-around "sandbox" game (in the same sense that Grand Theft Auto is a sandbox game) that presents players with an open universe and asks them what they want to do next.

The former two games beneft from having a "mission." The Inquisitor tells the Deathwatch Marines or Acolytes which xeno/heretic they're going to burn this week, and off they go, flamers in hand. RT has no such crutch, leaving many people (apparently) wondering how they're going to run it. Personally, this freedom feels exciting to me!

RT games should end up being high level "political" interaction games that feel like the equivalent of Frank Herebert's "Dune." Players should decide the fates of entire worlds. They should conquer whole subsectors. And the GM needs to let the acheive thi, striking a difficult balance between freedom and action, imposing realisitc and characterful contraints and challenges upon the players without restricting entertainment value.

RT is a tough tough game, but of all the 40k RPG games, it's the one that intrigues me the most...

Sister Callidia said:

Sister, you are quite right. Though what ambition I do have threatens to see me spilled out into the vacuum of space, given my Explorator is intent on building my pool on the outside of the ship. But that is another matter entirely.

MKX said:

Ah, more sage advice. I shall certainly follow that when it comes to carrying out revenge on those who have wronged me. Best to leave the minor details to the little people and worry about the really important things yourself. Like what to wear, and how best you should be lit whilst avenging yourself.

Lightbringer said:

I think this is the crux of the matter. We have thus far been following rails to some extent, getting the initial plot arc out of the way, but from what the GM has said, and what I personally have in mind, I hope our game will blossom once the business at hand is taken care of.

Perhaps the Rogue Trader's role can be one of origination, coming up with the ridiculously lofty ambitions the rest of the group can then have fun planning and realising. I think I'll take that forward and see what can be done with it. Timely indeed, as our next game is tonight!

Now, see, I think this is an interesting manifestation of the vision problem. We live our lives, and the highest thing in the real world we can think to aspire to is the life and possessions of a billionaire. Once you get there, what else is there to do but look inward or turn to the pointless grind of the Great Game of politics. Going into politics is pretty much the admission of failure of vision: you cannot see what else you might actually achieve or create, so you devote yourself to meddling and shuffling what exists around on the squares of the board.

A Rogue Trader starts at what you in your real life see as the top. But in the 40K universe, that's peanuts. So you have a fleet, a fortune. But there is a vast expanse of higher points on the ladder beyond that. You are one small speck in comparison to those who own worlds, or those who have forged new sectors, or those who have led crusades of billions. The billionaire of a world and fleet in 40K is roughly the guy who owns a fair sized fishing boat in a small coast town of the real world - or the shipping magnate of 400 years ago, when there were still dangers in the seas and places to be discovered.

Which gets us to the other difference between 40K and the real world; the frontier, the unknown. We don't have one left that you can just sail to. No edges on the maps we can get to today.

There are billionaires in the real world who are interested in building out orbital life capacity. They get it, they haven't lost their way. They see that they have only dipped their toes in the water of what is possible. But they are what, 1% of all the billionaires, if that? If it's hard for them to see, how hard is it for the rest of us?

We say we game to escape. For most of us, that is a lie, because we cannot see the chains we live within. So we paint the walls of the box a different color and call it imagination.

Reason said:

Oh no...Richard Branson's a Rogue Trader! Have you travelled on any of his trains recently?! The Imperium is doomed!

Interesting stuff, Reason! I agree being a Rogue Trader is pretty smallfry in the grand scheme of the Imperium, or even beyond, but I'm not sure I'd go all the way with you on a lack of ability to see beyond material wealth as the pinnacle of success.

In character, if anything, my RT came into his heritage wondering what the point of it all was, looking for some deeper meaning (looking inward, I suppose!) and the first thing he said to his crew was that he wanted to do something important with the opportunity he'd been given. Initially, it has to be about the accumulation of wealth, because there are things that need to be done (in our game, at least) that require more resources than even a RT begins with. But beyond that...

Beyond that is a universe of opportunity, xenos and the warp. The Imperium is certainly in need of some vision, though perhaps fixing it is less a grand ambition and more a delusion... But you know, what you said has spun me off in an interesting direction (and, indeed, reminded me of that initial speech to the crew...).

And to speak from a less self-centred perspective (lest I sound like the egomaniac my captain is not), I guess people's envisioning of "escape" varies. For some, escape is watching a soap opera that closely mirrors their own life, only with more drama. For others, it's experiencing other people's universes, reading books or playing computer games. Others still want to create their own stories, through roleplay or writing.

I'm not sure I would call any of those escapes a lie, even if some may be of a grander scale than others. Isn't it all subjective?

When reading this thread, my first thought was to point towards the "Motivation" row of the origin path. Whenever I feel a bit lost about what to do with my borderline lunatic RT character, I remember that his motivation, at its core, is renown. He wants people to know who he is, and he's not shy about letting them know.

RT's on the other hand, have only one possible motivation. Something, I think, that was a savvy move on the part of FFG to point out an encapsulate what a RT ought to be. First and foremost, prestige. It's always prestige. While wealth, power, and freedom may enter into the equation in some small amounts, what every Rogue Trader REALLY wants is to forge a legacy.

At that point, the characters branch. The vast majority of Rogue Traders want there legacy to be a thing of power, wealth, influence, and so forth. But it doesn't have to be. It sounds to me like you have a really quinte interesting character who is, at heart, an altruist. Perhaps he wants his legacy to be one of service, or mercy, or justice. Such a character would be more concerned with finding problems to solve or causes to champion than worlds to plunder or trade routes to exploit.

For the most part, the Rogue Trader, as the leader, needs to be the driving force of the group. It's not always up to you to get things done, but you are the one, at the end of the day, who decides what you're doing next. I see a really interesting campaign in the works where your conviction and desire to make a difference fly in the face of sense and mercantile opportunity.

Your character said he wanted to make a difference? Get out there and make one.

Rogue Trader is indeed, the Sandbox.

You can either build sand castles or tear down the other kids sand castles. Or you can get the other other kid to tear down the other kid's sand castle. Every RPG my group runs, even despite the GM's, has at this point.. learned to expect "Freeform" rpg sessions. They are put into the world.. few objectives in hand.. and told "Go".

IMO, this is the pinnacle of advanced RPG groups. It's the next step beyond the linear directions of pre-generated adventures. Creating content on the fly is definetly reserved for experienced GM's, but something everyone should aspire too... changing things as natural to accomodate certain player playstyles.. but adherering to the philosphy of a living breathing world where anything can happen. Rogue Trader gives you the option to explore, destroy, fail, win, be forgotten or be remembered. Other factions are always on the move in the RT galaxy... not just the PC's. It's a lot to fathome and plan out... (IE my RT files are about 100+ pages of content now..) but far more rewarding.

RT is "funner" when the GM puts more time into it, than required for Dark Heresy or other linear adventures.

Sandbox campaigns can be fantastic (I've been enjoying them since I bought and ran Twilight 2000 when it first came out), but I like to give a bit of a thread to underpin the sheer free roaming random nature of the game. I also like to prep people, places, and plots that the pcs can follow as they choose.

If there's absolutely no underlying plot, other than the pc's own goals, often that quickly becomes a long round of repetition. Also simply accumulating wealth isn't enough for our group.

Our RT campaign features a complex linking mystery involving a group known as the Inevitable Accord, which was founded by the RT's predecessor, and which it seems was dedicated to finding the Old Ones, and defeating the stirring C'tan. So far the Accord is quite murky and has really just featured as a mystery to investigate on the side, while building the dynasty's fortunes again.

I do think RT takes a lot of work from a dedicated GM. It's not a beginners game concept wise. I still sometimes get stumped as to how to write up some adventures. I don't think the samples so far have been a lot of help on that front, tending to be dungeons that assume (rather implausibly imo) that RTs risk their own skins at every single possible opportunity.

Although, when I started reading this thread, I had no doubts about the purpose of RT games and how awesome the game is, at the end of it now I feel like I've gained some real insights as to how the game is to function.

I once heard author Tracy Hickman say, in reference to rpgs, that they are not about getting old and getting lots of stuff. That's what life is about.

Even thought I though I had a clue as to what RT was about, I think, until I read this thread, that I had the wrong idea. I was still wondering exactly what to do, seeing as we already had all of the stuff we needed. I had forgotten that acquisition of such goods is not the point of the game. It's having fun. And, when you're a mighty Rogue Trader, having fun means a lot more than it does for a level 3 Warrior with a +2 Broadsword.

In my groups sessions, we've found the most fun when characters are working after their own agenda's. Our first two sessions were completely devoid of this. The characters did what they were supposed to, went to the right locations, found the right information, and generally followed the path of least resistance. In our third session, however, one character finally did something outrageous that set the ball in motion. When faced with a problem, he went with the absurd solution that everyone had joked about, but had quickly set aside as 'too far'. At that moment, the game left linear play and entered sandbox mode.

They stopped worrying about 'getting old' (following a linear story line) and 'getting lots of stuff' (not taking risks), and went after what they wanted to do, and what would provide the most fun for them.

Rogue Trader, in my opinion, is about having fun. When you're already at the power of a Rogue Trader, 'fun' has a lot more options.

Adam France said:

This is probably the only real criticism I have with Rogue Trader so far. It's rather difficult to create an endeavour that 'clicks'; I'd really love to see a sourcebook that expands on endeavours, giving us some more material to work with than what are basically D&D dungeons.

I love the lack Of raison d'etre. It has really been a boon for our group where we are charting a cluster of 70 odd systems that have been hard to reach. All using a randomly generated map and the system generator in the GM's pack. So far we have:

Found a pirate warehouse on a moon (after the pirates scarpered, where have they gone to though...)

Found a desert death world with lots of (deadly) xeno indigen life forms

Found another jungle death world with more deadly critters and hostile very feral humans (1 trashed lighter, 12 armsmen eaten as deserts and a explorator who very glad to be still alive)

A Daemonic intrusion on a ship after a risky journey through a dodgy warp channel (Plasma guns are still smoking...plus all the crew are **** scared)

Discovery of a warp empire of humans that have been lost since the age of strife. Problems include:

Most of the population an indeed the oligarchs love the arrival of the rogue trader, but the supreme leader (who lives in a underwater prison- dont ask..) and a religious leader who leads the descendants of a missionaria galactica outfit from before the age of apostasy have taken a disliking to the dynasty. After a great deal of politiking and underhand dealing we got ourselves some trade ararngements in exchange for possible imperial compliance (The Seneshal was on top form for this one. We only had to kill one person...macrocannons were NOT a option: we randomly rolled for the size of their flotilla.... and it was best to keep the situation sweet)

A Ork Held world - lots of Blood axes who are actually just minding their own buisness...thats going to change soon.

A Ruined Xeno held world - (Melta gun wielding tusked warrior rabbits...) whose automated weapon systems still bedevil some of the other uninhabited planets.

After which we found another channel out of the sub sector (they dont have any navigators so they can only do calculated jumps-hence why they are cut off) and promptly found a ruined planet with a ruined Hive city. With inhabited humans. We are currently investigating the ruins to find out what its about. Cue more more role playing games and the odd game of necromunda as our plucky dynasty armsmen hold off endless waves of very annoyed hive gangers.

In about two months time after we have finished exploring we will go back to footfall or port wander and...

A) Bring personnel to bring subsector into the Imperiums fold

Astropaths + Attendants
Missionaries + Flock (to oust the cardinal)
Mechanicum Priests + Multi Task Servitors

Arbites + Administratum

B) Gain favourable trading rights by providing

Weapons: Stubguns , Autoguns, Heavy Plasma guns

Starship Replacement parts

Establish pacts with imperial Mercantile Houses

C) Gain favour with the Oligarchs

Install- Favourable Governor

Bribe Blood Axes (stasis container with lots of teef) OR Drive Orks from planet

Eliminate Xeno weapons from Xeno ruins.

D) Explore and loot MSFT 7

Get a specialised explorator team to search ruins.
Workforce to asset strip the planet (New colonists if empty?)

PURCHASE

TRANSPORT VESSEL
ANTI PLANT MISSLES FOR GUNCUTTERS
ANTI GRAVITY PLATFORM FOR TROOP INSERTION

And this is it SO far . And we have only explored 16 odd systems.

The point is that the story will SUGGEST itself to you as you go along. What FFG could do to help though is lots of random generation charts. Lots and lost. The more sandbox the better. At the moment Im using the old Games Workshop rules for Judge Dredd Citi Blok to randomly generate the area in the ruined hive sity we are trying to investigate.