So a million threads about force mechanics, turrets, gunner crews etc. And we don't know any costs yet so for all we know naked Han is 190 points and can't even fit Luke gunner on there. And I know that game play should be greater than fluff but...

If the Meta is dominated by the best pilots from the original movies. I would be okay with that because they should be the best pilots.

Disclaimer. (I may change my mind in 10 months but for now this is my opinion.)

Sorry, but this is a dumb opinion

It's a game, and a well balanced game should not be dominated by anything. You will always have a "best" something, and it'd be lovely if the "best" were iconic star wars stuff, but if the gulf is so unassailably wide then we've been ****** beyond repair

The only way this is at all preferable is in comparison to 1.0. But that's like comparing movies to the Star Wars prequels, it ain't much of a standard.

and if Han + gunner Luke is any good, you will never see Fel on the table. Probably won't even see X-wing Luke or an outbid Vader since they're so trivial to arc-dodge with a 1.0 turret that can boost

FGD, I get your salty, but pull it back a notch dude. You can't go calling someone's opinion dumb. Most of us came to this game for the Star Wars parts of it and wanting the game to feel more swarzy isn't a crime. Take a break man, you're starting to sound like Paragoomba.

32 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Sorry, but this is a dumb opinion

It's a game, and a well balanced game should not be dominated by anything. You will always have a "best" something, and it'd be lovely if the "best" were iconic star wars stuff, but if the gulf is so unassailably wide then we've been ****** beyond repair

The only way this is at all preferable is in comparison to 1.0. But that's like comparing movies to the Star Wars prequels, it ain't much of a standard.

and if Han + gunner Luke is any good, you will never see Fel on the table. Probably won't even see X-wing Luke or an outbid Vader since they're so trivial to arc-dodge with a 1.0 turret that can boost

But Ficklegreen dice is right! We are now all shelling out BIG money to get a new version of the game and for those of us with a large collection this is a bitter pill to swallow, but I can accept this IF the game we get is WASTLY IMPROVED!

If turrets return then we are back to 1.0 and this ha just been one big money grab!

Wasn't there a time when Han dominated the game? IIRC people weren't happy.

Same for the recent dominance of a rather fluffy Star Wars Rebels squad.

Variable points costs and upgrade slots can fix these problems. Can we just wait till we get the app to freak out? the Luke Gunner is a valid concern, but one that does have an answer in the app.

9 minutes ago, RedHotDice said:

But Ficklegreen dice is right! We are now all shelling out BIG money to get a new version of the game and for those of us with a large collection this is a bitter pill to swallow, but I can accept this IF the game we get is WASTLY IMPROVED!

Yeah, harsh, but right.

If this was all anyone wanted, FFG could have made 4 new OP versions of these pilots and not put the game into limbo for the rest of us for 2+ years as stuff gets re-released.

I would like to actually see these guys at a big tourney without it being a joke list, but any stuff “dominating” the meta is bad. Popular and doing well is one thing; domination is another.

We still don’t have all information. There may be a force upgrade that drains force points from the enemy. Or modifications that make interceptors more survivable.

We’ll know for sure when all cards are revealed. Until then, it is still speculation.

Specific counters are not good game design, turns the game into matchup wing which is direct contrast to designers intention

Specific interceptors durability mods are also a bad idea. We already know about autothrusters

It's like we've all forgotten the game we're still playing

I know I'm coming across as harsh and I do apologize for that, but literally no good can come from gunner Luke. nerfing him into obsolescence is the only thing that has been offered in his defense

Luke (xwing)/Vader/Soontir will not warp the game to anyway near that extent. They can be outplayed, can't effortlessly token (soonts) or boost/roll (Vader and Luke). And, according to the designers, they will pay premium for high initiative and/or Force . They can be top tier without screwing all your manuevering-dependent ships over

34 minutes ago, Jehan Menasis said:

Or modifications that make interceptors more survivable.

Oh no, that will be a repeat of x-wing 1'st edition history..

22 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

I know I'm coming across as harsh and I do apologize for that, but literally no good can come from gunner Luke. nerfing him into obsolescence is the only thing that has been offered in his defense

I don't understand the designers made Luke crew card like this, I though they finally got it. Like e.g. with Sabine, or R2-D2 where they limit those abilities we know are difficult to handle with a limited set of charges/uses. This is good game design. It is ok to allow a super-rule-breaking ability, as long as you can only perform it once or twice.

Why?

1. A super-rule-breaking ability opens up a new design-space and that is interesting and fun.

2. For the user of Luke(crew) it promotes choice = where and when should I use it because I can only use it 1-2 times, which is at the core of any good game. Helps soften the blow if you made a bad decision setting your mobile-arc.

3. For the opponent going up against Luke(crew) it refraines from becoming a negative player experience because it can only be used 1-2 times, which you might provoke with a ship you can accept to loose, for then only to sweep in with Soontir once Luke has been used.


Luke(crew) should not have had a regenerating force ability, but instead a limited amount 1-2 force-charges - and this is not something that can be fixed by cost. I have another thread on that subject.

I'm severely bummed out by the unboxing, and at present I'm going to defer buying into 2nd Ed until 2019.

Hopes that this was a decisive break from the garbage of 1st Ed have been quite literally Dashed.

8 minutes ago, Sciencius said:

Luke(crew) should not have had a regenerating force ability, but instead a limited amount 1-2 force-charges - and this is not something that can be fixed by cost. I have another thread on that subject.

This man needs a job at ffg. This alone would curb my salt on that card. Bravo sir I applaud your logic.

Soontier Fel can get bulseye on the falcon easier because the falcon is a large base. Being able to evade+barrel roll and get a free focus lets him chip the falcons health, espcecially if he doubles down on bulseye with Predator, and picks up Steath/Hull for survivability.

Vader with FCS and a stack of missiles doesnt chip, he chunks away at a falcon's health. Falcon is capped at 2 evades even with the MFTitle behind a rock, Vader can beat that reliably.

Tie Bombers can remove Han's ability from the game, with a few turns of seismics. even without killing all the rocks, the need to stay within 0-1 of a rock limits the ability of large base boost to escape pursuit.

Tie Fighters just overwelm Han, especially with Admiral Sloan watching from nearby.

Gunboats can ion while SLAMming now, Han loses his ability when he drifts away from the rocks. Secret mission objective completed.

Defenders outrun and outlast Han

Decimator and Tie aggresssor circle like hawks, guns pointed toward the asteroid cluster Han needs to hide in to get his ability.

Vastly overestimating the ability of lower initiative pilots to draw beads on a fat turret arcdodger

Also seismics don't counter **** unless you can launch them. Otherwise you'll spend forever trying to line bomber butts alongside obstacles

Also ion cannons now provide range bonuses and need to deal hits in excess of 1 to begin ionization. Large bases take THREE tokens to ionize

All that are fine counters to Luke/Vader/Fel. There are no good counters to fat turrets other than the redesign that was supposed to cut them out.

You're underestimating the limitation Han's pilot ability puts on the Falcon's maneuverability. pack rocks into one corner, seismic the one your opponent placed elsewhere, and watch his predictable orbit of the cluster.

If Han and Luke combo does cost 200 points and you can't bring any other ships wouldn't that in itself be balanced? 3-5 TIE Interceptors against a single Turret should be able to down it, even more so for an 8 TIE Swarm. I may be in the minority but I think if Luke is costed right he could be a good addition to the game especially for a new player who is trying to learn movements and isn't as pro as most people here. I know I usually gave turreted ships to new players trying to learn so they could focus on the movement and learning the game and not just get outflown to death.

I would not agree

Part of the beauty of 2.0 is how well they've dealt with high ps, super modded arcdodgers (action chaining, difficulty in stacking mods, evade nerf etc)

Only Interceptors can keep boost+roll at leasiure, and he is at a tiny fraction of his 1.0 token stacking power

Even then, broll got adjusted to make it less effective

There is zero need for 1.0 turets at any level of skill. All they'll do is make things more frustrating when they're used against new players, as now fat turrets return to being the best arcdodgers in the game

3 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

I would not agree

Part of the beauty of 2.0 is how well they've dealt with high ps, super modded arcdodgers (action chaining, difficulty in stacking mods, evade nerf etc)

Only Interceptors can keep boost+roll at leasiure, and he is at a tiny fraction of his 1.0 token stacking power

Even then, broll got adjusted to make it less effective

There is zero need for 1.0 turets at any level of skill. All they'll do is make things more frustrating when they're used against new players, as now fat turrets return to being the best arcdodgers in the game

Only if Han gives up his pilot ability. An arcdodger cant be chained to fixed objects.

There is one factor in 2nd Edition compared to whatever wave was the Fan Turret wave in 1st Edition - ordnance might actually be a viable issue for big ships to worry about now. The Falcon is still going to be a defensive nightmare, but at least its cap is lower than it used to be (though shoot at it at range 3 through a rock at your own peril, especially if they haven't spend Luke's force token).

But there was always going to be a fat turret of one type or another in the game - there's an entire 15 minute section in A New Hope in which it's a hero and people liked flying them almost as much as people hated facing it. If there was going to be a downside of the 'fluff first, fix with points later' method of 2nd Edition, this was always going to be it (along with the Force users).

Saying that, I'm still going to be praying nightly until September that the YT-2400 is crew only, no gunner.

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

Specific counters are not good game design, turns the game into matchup wing which is direct contrast to designers intention

Specific interceptors durability mods are also a bad idea. We already know about autothrusters

It's like we've all forgotten the game we're still playing

I know I'm coming across as harsh and I do apologize for that, but literally no good can come from gunner Luke. nerfing him into obsolescence is the only thing that has been offered in his defense

Luke (xwing)/Vader/Soontir will not warp the game to anyway near that extent. They can be outplayed, can't effortlessly token (soonts) or boost/roll (Vader and Luke). And, according to the designers, they will pay premium for high initiative and/or Force . They can be top tier without screwing all your manuevering-dependent ships over

A force mod gunner and the force in general makes me a little worried.

I'm frankly not seeing the appeal either. Its not like Xwing1.0 felt incomplete without the force.

But seriously would you take a single 1.0 extremely costly ship that was your entire point allotment to guarantee to get off one 3 dice attack over 8 TIE Fighters sending 16 dice or or 5 Interceptors sending 15? Not even including range bonuses.

I see it as being a fun way for someone to get into the game without worrying about facing down the baron fel masters of arc dodging as long as it was not competitive and took up your entire points. I mean most times you see then Falcon fighting it's usually on its own anyways so makes sense to have a squad of 1.

This turret isn't omnidirectional. Spread out your ships, and come at Han from different directions.

if matches are truly dominated by anything then 2.0 has most likely failed at its main premise. The asking price is too steep for just another unbalanced game, even if it's skewed towards popular OT ships and characters.

33 minutes ago, FrightfulCommand said:

A force mod gunner and the force in general makes me a little worried.

I'm frankly not seeing the appeal either. Its not like Xwing1.0 felt incomplete without the force.

I didn't think the game necessarily needed force powers as a specific mechanic but the number of times I have seen or heard someone complain that it wasn't in there is quite high

40 minutes ago, GILLIES291 said:

But seriously would you take a single 1.0 extremely costly ship that was your entire point allotment to guarantee to get off one 3 dice attack over 8 TIE Fighters sending 16 dice or or 5 Interceptors sending 15? Not even including range bonuses.

I see it as being a fun way for someone to get into the game without worrying about facing down the baron fel masters of arc dodging as long as it was not competitive and took up your entire points. I mean most times you see then Falcon fighting it's usually on its own anyways so makes sense to have a squad of 1.

Thats the problem though, jumpmasters weren’t terrors in the hands of newbs or the unskilled. The problem happens when good players figure out it’s too good and abuse the **** out of it. Do you think spike players will magically want to start playing harder lists? No. Then it takes someone of Heavers obviously skill level to topple them so the forums can scream “See it’s beatable!” Well of course it is if you have Patton level leadership against some crazy dictator. Bottom line is it’s not ok but there is very little anyone can do but ***** about it so we do.