I would say not to waste time flying an auto-loss decimator against the guaranteed to win Han, who is

1.) higher I

2.) more mods

3.) vastly more mobile, re actually has post-maneuver repositioning

4.) can arc-dodge

maybe if there were two carbon copy decis it'd be a fair fight

also I don't have Vassal

play a friend, see how far the deci gets

1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

I would say not to waste time flying an auto-loss decimator against the guaranteed to win Han

also I don't have Vassal

Too bad, because I want to show you it isnt an autoloss for the Patrol leader.

it literally is autoloss short of ridiculous luck

even without luke, you've given Han far more mods than the deci. All the deci gets is 3 more health

statistically, you lose in a dice trade and you're less mobile. that's an auto-loss

8 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

I would say not to waste time flying an auto-loss decimator against the guaranteed to win Han

also I don't have Vassal

It's unfortunate that your complains has crossed the border firmly into the troll territory.

So you hate 1.0 turrets, we all get it.

Now please stop spamming the forums with these tantrums.

Based on what we have seen so far, it's not quite clear if Han would even be Tier 1 playable in 2.0.

Because the clear winners so far seem to be jousting lists with 4-5 strong generics (X-Wings, TIE Advanced, etc). Han with his weak offense and weak defense will crumble in no time against such list. And it doesn't make any difference at all if he can rotate his arc for free in such matchup..

Even against 1 defender in 1:1 situation the Defender will comfortable beat the **** out of Han.

So Han or Luke really are not the problem..

Even so.

6 minutes ago, player44455 said:

It's unfortunate that your complains has crossed the border firmly into the troll territory.

So you hate 1.0 turrets, we all get it.

Now please stop spamming the forums with these tantrums.

Based on what we have seen so far, it's not quite clear if Han would even be Tier 1 playable in 2.0.

Because the clear winners so far seem to be jousting lists with 4-5 strong generics (X-Wings, TIE Advanced, etc). Han with his weak offense and weak defense will crumble in on time against such list.

Even against 1 defender in 1:1 situation the Defender will comfortable beat the **** out of Han.

So Han or Luke really are not the problem..

still not seeing any reason anyone would want these mechanics in this game

only seeing a failure to engage with the actual issue, which is fair because there is actually no justification given the designer's mission statement

6 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

Even so.

here,

assume cheri is his old ability but it only triggers in your reinforced area

give him Vader tula

fairer fight

Gunner Luke is a braindead design choice but I REFUSE to believe EU Luke Han is more expensive than that Cheri

11 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

still not seeing any reason anyone would want these mechanics in this game

only seeing a failure to engage with the actual issue, which is fair because there is actually no justification given the designer's mission statement

Yeah I would also prefer if Luke had some other ability, but this is what we got.

So I guess the lesson is that we cannot have *everything* the way we would like to?

But it will really not be a huge problem in the game, so from practical perspective it's not a big deal.. From philosophical it clearly is, for you and some other people..

11 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Gunner Luke is a braindead design choice but I REFUSE to believe EU Luke Han is more expensive than that Cheri

They were about the same cost in 1.0, and probably will be similar in 2.0 as well..

Actually RAC without Engine Upgrade and with (probably) cheaper Emperor might cost less points than fully loaded Han..

He basically has to be cheaper

FFG said they were putting a premium on initiative

Then again they said they'd focus on making manuevering matter more (alliteration!) so I guess we can't really take their word for it

It's such a shame because I LOVE the new deci and actually can't wait to finally fly my own

I get the impression people have forgotten what actually made Fat-Han good against arc-dodgers (aside form the maneuverability and the defensive staking). Because it was not that he could shoot at arc-dodgers every turn, it was that he could do so twice!

Han relied on classic gunner (or classic Luke) to push damage through because one 3 dice attack dose almost nothing against 3 dice with focus and evade.

And even with the limited token-staking in 2.0 pretty much all Imperial aces have access to focus+evade in some form. Vader can take multiple action, defenders and phantoms get it as there ship ability, Somtir has to work for it, but against a large base ship it is not that hard and if classic stealth device still exists he will still roll enough dice.

I think it’s a mistake to think that 2.0 is exclusively ‘balanced’ around game mechanics. It isn’t.

What seems fairly obvious (to me at least) is that FFG are leaning firmly towards ‘iconic’ ships and characters from the films (Luke and Vader over say Soontir and Asajj).

So you can expect those to be pretty good. Combine them (Luke + Han) and they will be really good.

Does this detract from 2.0 solving the balance issues? Possibly. But then if there is one great turret ship, it should probably be the Falcon. And it’s worth remembering that some players really enjoy playing a turret ship and they will need a home in 2.0 as much as tricksy Soontir players.

My guess is Han/Luke Falcon will be decent, but not game breaking. The kind of ship that will floor inexperienced players but is relatively easily countered by the competitive crowd. I’d also expect the combo to be an ‘all or nothing’ choice. Yes you get a solid “PWT” of old but pretty much just that.

Also I think we will see variable upgrade costs per ship. Luke Gunner will cost ‘X’ with Han but ‘Y’on Dash etc. And that will have a noticeable impact on what’s actually viable.

1 minute ago, Duskwalker said:

I get the impression people have forgotten what made actually Fat-Han good against arc-dodgers (aside form the maneuverability and the defensive staking). Because it was not that he could shoot at arc-dodgers every turn, it was that he could do so twice!

Fat relied on classic gunner (or classic Luke) to push damage through because one 3 dice attack dose almost nothing against 3 dice with focus and evade.

And even with the limited token-staking in 2.0 pretty much all Imperial aces have access to focus+evade in some form. Vader can take multiple action, defenders and phantoms get it as there ship ability, Somtir has to work for it, but against a large base ship it is not that hard and if classic stealth device still exists he will still roll enough dice.

Vader doesn't have the evade action.

Phantoms don't have 3 agility.

The *only* interceptor that can get focus+evade is Soontir, and only if he has an enemy in his bullseye arc.

The only ship we've seen that can get 3 agiliy with focus and evade consistently is the TIE defender.

3 minutes ago, Duskwalker said:

I get the impression people have forgotten what actually made Fat-Han good against arc-dodgers (aside form the maneuverability and the defensive staking). Because it was not that he could shoot at arc-dodgers every turn, it was that he could do so twice!

Fat relied on classic gunner (or classic Luke) to push damage through because one 3 dice attack dose almost nothing against 3 dice with focus and evade.

And even with the limited token-staking in 2.0 pretty much all Imperial aces have access to focus+evade in some form. Vader can take multiple action, defenders and phantoms get it as there ship ability, Somtir has to work for it, but against a large base ship it is not that hard and if classic stealth device still exists he will still roll enough dice.

The problem is he cancels out none aces that can't do that.

You have no chance to outfly him with a ps4 interceptor. Without Luke gunner you have that chance, you can force him to move the turret so no other mods, or you can block him so he can't move it. Luke gunner just ignore all counter play.

Why is that a good thing?

Lets face it, Rebels are the "skill floor" faction. They wont be autowin if the prices are right, but it's going to be very hard to play them badly. See also Wedge affecting his entire arc.

On 5/20/2018 at 3:26 AM, LordBlades said:

I don't think this is correct, mainly for 2 reasons:

-AFAIK, no 'one attack per turn' blanket rule hasn't been confirmed for regular attacks, only for bonus.

-Cards that allow you to do something out of sequence but then NOT do it again when you normally could (like a Advanced Sensors does for actions) clearly state as such.

The way it appears to work, at least according to what we know:

-Engagement phase starts, Han allows a shot at I7.

-The regular Initiative of the ship with Han comes along. There is no blanket restriction that it can't shoot at all, only that it can't use the same mobile arc.

The main reason I assumed only one attack + one bonus attack is due to the fact that they came up with the "bonus attack" terminology in the first place. That way, they don't need clunky additional text to say you can't attack again, so long as something isn't providing a "bonus attack", and they don't have to worry about it stacking if you only get one bonus attack. It is the most logical reason for introducing that terminology. Otherwise, there really isn't much point.

The wording on Han seems like it's meant to make sure that if something does grant a bonus attack, they don't get the use the turret. Otherwise, it should state that you are getting a second attack instead of inferring it in the most roundabout way.

Eh, we'll find out one way or another eventually.

2 minutes ago, Icelom said:

The problem is he cancels out none aces that can't do that.

You have no chance to outfly him with a ps4 interceptor. Without Luke gunner you have that chance, you can force him to move the turret so no other mods, or you can block him so he can't move it. Luke gunner just ignore all counter play.

Why is that a good thing? 

If you're plaing INI 4 Interceptors, then you should fit at least 4-5 in the list.

So you can't arc dodge him, but you can stay at range 3 and shoot with multiple ships, which should give you the dice advantage.

If he boosts away from the range, then that's fine, he's not shooting you back either.

And with INI 4 Interceptors you should be able to block him quite easily.

Also let's not forget that all these interceptor-like generics have now soft PTL built in! That's actually huge.

Really, the winners in 2.0 will be generics, get ready for it..

18 hours ago, Incard said:

here's some more math on the defensive ability of 1st vs 2nd edition Han Solo:

1st edition can use an Evade token to block 1 damage, use C-3PO to guarantee an evade result, and use R2-D2 crew to recover 1 shield (under certain conditions, let's assume the best). This version of Han effectively blocks 3 damage each turn, plus an additional amount equal to the number of evades he rolls against attacks where C-3PO is not used. The number of damaged blocked as a function of the number of attacks faced in a single turn is d(a)= (3/8)(a-1)+3.

2nd edition Han can reroll his defense die once due to his pilot ability (let's assume the best for him, too: he's near an obstacle), and once more from the Millenium Falcon title (yes, he gets to reroll it twice). He can do this against any number of attacks, but he will presumably wait to use his evade token until the last attack against him in order to maximize the rerolling benefit. His evade token is only a 2nd edition token, however, and merely changes his die result to an evade, rather than adding an evade result. The odds on rolling an evade on a single die that you're allowed to reroll up to two times is almost exactly 3/4 (it's really 75.5+%). The number of damaged blocked as a function of the number of attacks faced in a single turn is d(a)=(3/4)(a-1)+1.

Here's a graph of both functions. It takes 7(!) attacks in a single turn before the 2nd edition Han blocks on average more damage than the 1st edition Han. And remember, for 2nd edition Han, only 1 block ever is guaranteed, compared to 3.

So, care to do a version of that chart where the attackers have Crack Shot and Han in their bullseye arcs? Because from my reading of the cards, that translates to "Damage blocked == 0"

1 minute ago, player44455 said:

If you're plaing INI 4 Interceptors, then you should fit at least 4-5 in the list.

So you can't arc dodge him, but you can stay at range 3 and shoot with multiple ships, which should give you the dice advantage.

If he boosts away from the range, then that's fine, he's not shooting you back either.

And with INI 4 Interceptors you should be able to block him quite easily.

Also let's not forget that all these interceptor-like generics have now soft PTL built in! That's actually huge.

Really, the winners in 2.0 will be generics, get ready for it..

Sure a full 200,pts of interceptors should kill ~100pts of any one ship.

Solid analysis.

2 minutes ago, Icelom said:

The problem is he cancels out none aces that can't do that.

You have no chance to outfly him with a ps4 interceptor. Without Luke gunner you have that chance, you can force him to move the turret so no other mods, or you can block him so he can't move it. Luke gunner just ignore all counter play.

 Why is that a good thing?

I'm not saying it is good thing, but considering how much the terms "game-braking" and "auto-include" are thrown around here, I feel like people are overreacting a tiny bit.

35 minutes ago, player44455 said:

It's unfortunate that your complains has crossed the border firmly into the troll territory.

So you hate 1.0 turrets, we all get it.

Now please stop spamming the forums with these tantrums.

While fickle’s obsessive hate of turrets has been well documented since wave 2, and he has been going on about this in a lot of threads, he does have an actual valid-ish point beneath all his hyperbole, and this is a thread specifically to discuss this exact issue.

So as long as he keeps his ranting in this thread, I’m fine with whatever he wants to say. It’s when he starts with this stuff in other threads that AREN’T about Luke and turrets that it’s a problem.

3 minutes ago, Freeptop said:

So, care to do a version of that chart where the attackers have Crack Shot and Han in their bullseye arcs? Because from my reading of the cards, that translates to "Damage blocked == 0"

I was thinking of doing one that accounted for Luke Gunner's force token on defense. It matters but it means 2nd Ed overtakes 1st Ed at 4 or 5 attacks instead of 7.

Just now, Duskwalker said:

I'm not saying it is good thing, but considering how much the terms "game-braking" and "auto-include" are thrown around here, I feel like people are overreacting a tiny bit.

I don't think it's auto include or overpowered. I think it's game breaking because it hard countered a certain set of ships basically pushing them out if the game because if a Luke gunner ship shows up they have 0 counterpart to him.

And that is my fear.

2 minutes ago, Icelom said:

Sure a full 200,pts of interceptors should kill ~100pts of any one ship.

Solid analysis.

I guess you're running out of rational arguments, eh?

So I guess this is the similar comparison as when you were talking about that single PS 4 interceptor vs Han in your previous post?

It's too late in here for me to bother with math right now, but the gut estimation is that 4 generic interceptors should beat Han almost always.

With 3 of them, you should still have the edge.

1 minute ago, Incard said:

I was thinking of doing one that accounted for Luke Gunner's force token on defense. It matters but it means 2nd Ed overtakes 1st Ed at 4 or 5 attacks instead of 7.

Part of the flaw in your comparison is one version is using 2 crew slots vs the other using 0.

1 minute ago, player44455 said:

I guess you're running out of rational arguments, eh?

So I guess this is the similar comparison as when you were talking about that single PS 4 interceptor vs Han in your previous post?

It's too late in here for me to bother with math right now, but the gut estimation is that 4 generic interceptors should beat Han almost always.

With 3 of them, you should still have the edge.

But with an even point amount no? That's your argument if you out point him you can beat him?

1 minute ago, Icelom said:

But with an even point amount no? That's your argument if you out point him you can beat him?

That's the trick- to locally out-point someone. If you can shoot with your whole list and the enemy only shoots back with 1 ship,you're winning.