16 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

20-25 points is a complete steal for a card that shatters the fundamental design of the game.

This. Sadly in our game this.

2 hours ago, Jike said:

I'm in the "wait for points costs" camp on this one.

Yeah, me too; incomplete information is usually a trap in debate, but still: FFG should never let turrets be 360 use regardless of if it's our beloved Luke who allows it. FFG should be smarter than this and never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, ever, never allow 360 turrets like this!!!

...did I say never enough? I really mean it.

Now where's my tea?

Massive amount of over reaction on an issue people can't even be sure exists.

And even if something thats is not properly considered makes it to game release, FFG has said they will be balancing the game through the Point cost, and I'm sure Errata if it proved to be something that needs that level of detail.

Either way, its silly to panic over this, and its really amusing to see people denounce a game mechanic they don't even know exists.

I think Fat Han can suck a big fat tractor beam. Put three on the sucker and throw him on to a rock. Besides, he canny re-roll a dice he doesn't have access to.

Dodge that you smug faced, scruffy looking, princess stealing, emo son creating, Star Lord wannabe.

I just hope the translation somehow lost the "free action" or "as an action" or something along those lines tag. That would take away most of its brokeness.

I mean, PS 6 with the rotate action is pretty strong as it is. Especially with a bid.

Dengar and Han - and Dengar gets a TL or a focus too! Ofc, the rotate action is blocked by stress control or blocking, and at least in Han's case, means not grabbing a focus/TL.

So yeah, Luke is strong - Han can be blocked or stressed and still get shots. And if you do not need to use Luke's ability, you have a force token! But Like being broken? We will have to wait and see I guess.

__________________

Also, half point did not exist during the reign of Fat Han, right? I wasn't around for that meta.

Half points is a big deal for sure.

Removed pointless post...

14 hours ago, Incard said:

here's some more math on the defensive ability of 1st vs 2nd edition Han Solo:

1st edition can use an Evade token to block 1 damage, use C-3PO to guarantee an evade result, and use R2-D2 crew to recover 1 shield (under certain conditions, let's assume the best). This version of Han effectively blocks 3 damage each turn, plus an additional amount equal to the number of evades he rolls against attacks where C-3PO is not used. The number of damaged blocked as a function of the number of attacks faced in a single turn is d(a)= (3/8)(a-1)+3.

2nd edition Han can reroll his defense die once due to his pilot ability (let's assume the best for him, too: he's near an obstacle), and once more from the Millenium Falcon title (yes, he gets to reroll it twice). He can do this against any number of attacks, but he will presumably wait to use his evade token until the last attack against him in order to maximize the rerolling benefit. His evade token is only a 2nd edition token, however, and merely changes his die result to an evade, rather than adding an evade result. The odds on rolling an evade on a single die that you're allowed to reroll up to two times is almost exactly 3/4 (it's really 75.5+%). The number of damaged blocked as a function of the number of attacks faced in a single turn is d(a)=(3/4)(a-1)+1.

Here's a graph of both functions. It takes 7(!) attacks in a single turn before the 2nd edition Han blocks on average more damage than the 1st edition Han. And remember, for 2nd edition Han, only 1 block ever is guaranteed, compared to 3.

The above is hugely important to keep in mind.

I had hoped that this was just a mistranslation and Luke triggered in the device phase or something, but "poczatku fazy walki" from the spoiler plugged into google translate gives "the start of the battle phase". Not sure how FFG forgot that having undisruptable mechanics that let you adjust your plays with perfect information leads to huge problems. And the 2nd sentence on the card, "aby obrocic wskaznik" translates to "to rotate the pointer", so no indication that this is an action that would be affected by stress or bumping.

Even if 2.0 fat Han isn't as good as he was in 2014, it's important to remember that everything else in 2.0 got nerfed down as well. And he was allowed to keep his close-range arc-dodging ability.

Even though it's a given that FFG will eventually fix this if it becomes an issue, the shortsighted design of the card has me concerned that we are going to have a similar cycle of broken/balanced as new waves are released that we had in 1.0 where each new FAQ balanced the game and each new Wave broke it again.

13 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

Even if 2.0 fat Han isn't as good as he was in 2014, it's important to remember that everything else in 2.0 got nerfed down as well. And he was allowed to keep his close-range arc-dodging ability.

Even though it's a given that FFG will eventually fix this if it becomes an issue, the shortsighted design of the card has me concerned that we are going to have a similar cycle of broken/balanced as new waves are released that we had in 1.0 where each new FAQ balanced the game and each new Wave broke it again.

I don't see how it's game breaking. One ship gets to always have one shot. It's not Gunner Han where you get 2 attacks. If you repositioned you don't get any modifier. Han near a rock can't happen all the time. He gets easily predictable and easily blocked. Sure, you will always get a shot with Luke gunner, but that doesn't mean the shot will be worth it.

Also, seismic charges blow up asteroids!!! Han can't use what isn't there.

A point often forgotten on PWT larg bases like the Falcon or Dash is that they cost around 60 points (old system) so you have to run a 2 ship list.

Now, if you have 1 ship that cost the same as 2, you would spec tht it can shoot every turn. A 60 point falcon PWT as the offensive power than having 2 30 point 3 attack ship (like wedge and luke) both you can only shoot with one of them every turn.

What made fat han, super dash, miranda and the Ghost powerful were his defensive capabilities. Even the Ghost was never an issue without Biggs, Lowrick or fenn.

In 2.0 we are seeing that all defensive capabilities have been toned down. (evadw, regen, c3po).

Finally, for those crying about the interceptor, it is @ 3 agi ship with focus, if a facing single shot (unmodded) 3 dice attack each turn the expected damage is less than 0.3, If han mod the dice with the force it raises to 0.5. Meanwhile the interceptor is shooting 3 naked dice against a 1 agi ship with a reroll or an evade token that averages around 1 damage per turn. Sor 60 points turret is struggling to actually hit those interceptors while the squint is doing some real damage every turn. On a 3 Squints match versus han in 2.0 (were at least 2 squint will be shooting with focus my money would be in the imperial side.

Tl,dr, im not worried with a ship that cost 2/3 of your list shooting unmodded dice every turn.

4 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I don't see how it's game breaking. One ship gets to always have one shot. It's not Gunner Han where you get 2 attacks. If you repositioned you don't get any modifier. Han near a rock can't happen all the time. He gets easily predictable and easily blocked. Sure, you will always get a shot with Luke gunner, but that doesn't mean the shot will be worth it.

It becomes broken when a ship can boost past another ship's arc without having to be concerned with the placement of its own arc to still get shots.

That's the whole thing that made 1.0 turrets broken in the first place. And more importantly, it's what makes them unfun to fly against, since it feels like the person using them doesn't need to be as careful with their flying as someone who is using ships with limited firing arcs.

Also I'm not sure why you guys think Han's attacks will be unmodified. We already know there are passive mods from any crew cards that have Force Powers. With Luke, Ezra and Maul crew, Han will always have Force tokens to spare to help modify his dice.

9 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

It becomes broken when a ship can boost past another ship's arc without having to be concerned with the placement of its own arc to still get shots.

That's the whole thing that made 1.0 turrets broken in the first place. And more importantly, it's what makes them unfun to fly against, since it feels like the person using them doesn't need to be as careful with their flying as someone who is using ships with limited firing arcs.

Oh, I recall the old game, but you are forgetting some things:

1) It was the combo Boost and BR that was the worst. Can't do that in v2.

2) attack dice are unmodified, unless near an asteroid. Oh, that's still only 1 die...and you can blow up the asteroid.

3) no matter how many force crew you add, you can only regen 1 Force a turn. After the first round of modifying all those dice he can then do only 1.

4) Every ship will get to reposition. Even a Y-wing gets a BR to help keep Han in arc.

5) you can still block Han pretty easily.

6) it's gotten easier to Ionize a large ship, which makes it easier to fight.

3 hours ago, HanScottFirst said:

I mean, PS 6 with the rotate action is pretty strong as it is. Especially with a bid.

idk about "strong", more like "balanced"

losing your action on your expensive I6 ship is huge (and stress on that jm5k dial? oh boy).

Rotate arc actions means no boost, no evade, no focus etc. Giving all that up just to shoot some dude, potentially screwing up your facing for the following turns? Not always a grand idea. It requires a lot of thought and carries a lot of consequence

but luke takes all that out of the equation, creating a massive force multiplier and lowering the skill floor to just below the ninth circle of ****

it really bears repeating, the rotate mobile arc action IS SEVERELY LIMITING compared to 1.0 turret mechanics. It means your decisions as a rebel turret player carry a significant impact regarding the effectiveness of your ship

but with Luke, we're just back to 1.0. Trivially arc dodge, don't land on rocks; you're golden. Kiss all the interesting complexity and player interaction promised by 2.0 goodbye

I really don't understand why they'd undermine themselves so **** hard when they've done such a good job of making turrets actually fun to play against

2 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

but with Luke, we're just back to 1.0. Trivially arc dodge, don't land on rocks; you're golden. Kiss all the interesting complexity and player interaction promised by 2.0 goodbye

Sure....1 ship gets to move its turrets every turn. It will get one shot every round, but not with another Gunner or Han's ability to re-roll all the dice. Also, it won't be able to dodge all those arcs with Boost or BR. It can't modify it's dice much. It won't get the defensive ability the v1 did.

All I see is one ship always getting a standard shot. This is a far cry from how it was. It is no way game breaking.

it is completely game breaking, as it flies in the face of the very purpose of 2.0

maybe it'll be costed appropriately (at least 30 points, 40 to be safe) so it won't be auto-include on all fat turrets that can take it, but it does mean that it doesn't matter how much it's actually costed. Its very presence runs contrary to what 2.0 promised to be, and really calls FFG's design prowess into question

I've been very happy with what 2.0 promises to be and all the new mechanics + changes seem to have been for the very best...except gunner Luke. I have no clue what sort of drug-fueled hedonistic frenzy could spawn this bastardized afterbirth of an idea, nor why people think it belongs in the game just because the designers can sweep the stain of it under the rug by costing it into obsolesce

16 hours ago, Incard said:

here's some more math on the defensive ability of 1st vs 2nd edition Han Solo:

1st edition can use an Evade token to block 1 damage, use C-3PO to guarantee an evade result, and use R2-D2 crew to recover 1 shield (under certain conditions, let's assume the best). This version of Han effectively blocks 3 damage each turn, plus an additional amount equal to the number of evades he rolls against attacks where C-3PO is not used. The number of damaged blocked as a function of the number of attacks faced in a single turn is d(a)= (3/8)(a-1)+3.

2nd edition Han can reroll his defense die once due to his pilot ability (let's assume the best for him, too: he's near an obstacle), and once more from the Millenium Falcon title (yes, he gets to reroll it twice). He can do this against any number of attacks, but he will presumably wait to use his evade token until the last attack against him in order to maximize the rerolling benefit. His evade token is only a 2nd edition token, however, and merely changes his die result to an evade, rather than adding an evade result. The odds on rolling an evade on a single die that you're allowed to reroll up to two times is almost exactly 3/4 (it's really 75.5+%). The number of damaged blocked as a function of the number of attacks faced in a single turn is d(a)=(3/4)(a-1)+1.

Here's a graph of both functions. It takes 7(!) attacks in a single turn before the 2nd edition Han blocks on average more damage than the 1st edition Han. And remember, for 2nd edition Han, only 1 block ever is guaranteed, compared to 3.

So no big deal. As this graph clearly shows, if you're worried about Han being nortoroously hard to kill vs the 1.0 edition, simply attack him only once per round to maximize the defensive nerf. He'll die super fast that way

1 minute ago, piznit said:

So no big deal. As this graph clearly shows, if you're worried about Han being nortoroously hard to kill vs the 1.0 edition, simply attack him only once per round to maximize the defensive nerf. He'll die super fast that way

14 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

it is completely game breaking, as it flies in the face of the very purpose of 2.0

maybe it'll be costed appropriately (at least 30 points, 40 to be safe) so it won't be auto-include on all fat turrets that can take it, but it does mean that it doesn't matter how much it's actually costed. Its very presence runs contrary to what 2.0 promised to be, and really calls FFG's design prowess into question

I've been very happy with what 2.0 promises to be and all the new mechanics + changes seem to have been for the very best...except gunner Luke. I have no clue what sort of drug-fueled hedonistic frenzy could spawn this bastardized afterbirth of an idea, nor why people think it belongs in the game just because the designers can sweep the stain of it under the rug by costing it into obsolesce

You seem to be upset at the logic of it all vs the actual reality of how powerful (or not) it really is.

4 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

You seem to be upset at the logic of it all vs the actual reality of how powerful (or not) it really is.

He does have a point though. Gunner Luke does seem contrary to what FFG seems to promote as the core ideas of 2.0.

9 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

You seem to be upset at the logic of it all vs the actual reality of how powerful (or not) it really is.

literally no good can come of it regardless of how powerful (or not) it really is

but it is also stupidly powerful and a holdover from 1.0 when everything else got more reasonable. The chances that it is costed to the point that you won't see it everywhere are very, very low

Consider that mobile arc previously-turrets should now be cheaper to reflect their far reduced impact on the game, dragging them down to around Shadowcaster prices (at a guess) from what they used to cost. If you give them gunner luke, which restores them to their original stupidity but also provides an occasional action-independent modifier, you're going to need to price the upgrade so that it exceeds their original costs

and then you're going to have to jack the price up higher if you don't want it showing up on literally every 3+ die mobile arc that can take it

it is really difficult to overstate how powerful it is to be able to shoot whenever you want at almost whatever you want, and how badly it reduces the impact of skill and increases the impact of match-ups by thoroughly ******* over ships that depend on positioning to survive

in short,

1.) nothing good can come of Gunner Luke (as currently spoiled)

by the designers' own statements and efforts (mobile arcs), it does not belong in 2.0

2.) Unless it's SUPER expensive, it will be autoinclude.

It IS that game breaking

It's a unique and probably expensive crew that can be used on one ship. I don't think that warrants throwing out the baby and the bath water.

There was never a problem with PWT in the game when it was just one ship. It only became a problem when we had about a half dozen ships with the capability.

1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

literally no good can come of it regardless of how powerful (or not) it really is

but it is also stupidly powerful and a holdover from 1.0 when everything else got more reasonable. The chances that it is costed to the point that you won't see it everywhere are very, very low

Consider that mobile arc previously-turrets should now be cheaper to reflect their far reduced impact on the game, dragging them down to around Shadowcaster prices (at a guess) from what they used to cost. If you give them gunner luke, which restores them to their original stupidity but also provides an occasional action-independent modifier, you're going to need to price the upgrade so that it exceeds their original costs

and then you're going to have to jack the price up higher if you don't want it showing up on literally every 3+ die mobile arc that can take it

it is really difficult to overstate how powerful it is to be able to shoot whenever you want at almost whatever you want, and how badly it reduces the impact of skill and increases the impact of match-ups by thoroughly ******* over ships that depend on positioning to survive

in short,

1.) nothing good can come of Gunner Luke (as currently spoiled)

by the designers' own statements and efforts (mobile arcs), it does not belong in 2.0

2.) Unless it's SUPER expensive, it will be autoinclude.

It IS that gamewarping

You are completely disregarding opportunity cost.

In the hands of someone who can fly, Luke is effectively an extra Calculate token per round. He will of course cost more than that level of action efficency, which any force crew provides. By taking Luke over Han, you maybe get some extra shots against arcdodgers, in exchange for losing the double tap Han provides.

Consider Luke Han vs Vader RAC. Han hides in the asteroids, chiranu has his turret set sideways as he orbits the asteroids, firing in with either a TL or reinforce. If han leaves the asteroids, his action efficency goes to ****. Meanwhile RAC is shrugging off as much damage as MF just with his reinforce token.

14 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

You are completely disregarding opportunity cost.

In the hands of someone who can fly, Luke is effectively an extra Calculate token per round. He will of course cost more than that level of action efficency, which any force crew provides. By taking Luke over Han, you maybe get some extra shots against arcdodgers, in exchange for losing the double tap Han provides.

Consider Luke Han vs Vader RAC. Han hides in the asteroids, chiranu has his turret set sideways as he orbits the asteroids, firing in with either a TL or reinforce. If han leaves the asteroids, his action efficency goes to ****. Meanwhile RAC is shrugging off as much damage as MF just with his reinforce token.

you are completely disregarding just how much more freedom you get when you don't have to worry about your facing in the slightest. There is an incredible, night and day difference that I'm surprised no one can glimpse just by remembering how 1.0 went

there is no opportunity cost. Currently spoiled gunners might as well not exist next to luke, unless they interact with mobile + primary arcs like I think they do (but the yts don't have primary arcs so it's a meaningless distinction there)

and no, it's not "someone who can fly". You have to be out of your mind to think that a "good" player will always have a good shot against another "good" player, the only way that's guaranteed is...gunner Luke. And we're back to the problem.

without gunner luke, mobile arcs promote interactions between players as they vie to either exploit or limit the effectiveness of mobile arcs by competing for better positions. With gunner luke, no such interaction exists. There will never be a time when gunner Luke is without the shot he wants, unless he's run aground a rock or bumping.

also have to remember, that these aren't Shadowcaster arcs. You can easily avoid a side-winding decimator because it won't have its forward arc. Furthermore, a side-winding decimator is going to have a **** time reinforcing because ships sitting on the line no longer count for reinforce (it's not like the auzzie, where you're either in the quadrant or not)

****, even in the shadowcaster's case they nerfed its mobile arc to 2-dice for that exact reason.

the only thing people are disregarding is just how much more thought and positioning has to go into flying 2.0 mobile arcs than 1.0 turrets, and just how much gets completely invalidated when gunner Luke effectively brings back that outdated mechanic

3 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

you are completely disregarding just how much more freedom you get when you don't have to worry about your facing in the slightest. There is an incredible, night and day difference that I'm surprised no one can glimpse just by remembering how 1.0 went

there is no opportunity cost. Currently spoiled gunners might as well not exist next to luke, unless they interact with mobile + primary arcs like I think they do (but the yts don't have primary arcs so it's a meaningless distinction there)

and no, it's not "someone who can fly". You have to be out of your mind to think that a "good" player will always have a good shot against another "good" player, the only way that's guaranteed is...gunner Luke. And we're back to the problem.

without gunner luke, mobile arcs promote interactions between players as they vie to either exploit or limit the effectiveness of mobile arcs by competing for better positions. With gunner luke, no such interaction exists. There will never be a time when gunner Luke is without the shot he wants, unless he's run aground a rock or bumping.

also have to remember, that these aren't Shadowcaster arcs. You can easily avoid a side-winding decimator because it won't have its forward arc. Furthermore, a side-winding decimator is going to have a **** time reinforcing because ships sitting on the line no longer count for reinforce (it's not like the auzzie, where you're either in the quadrant or not)

****, even in the shadowcaster's case they nerfed its mobile arc to 2-dice for that exact reason.

the only thing people are disregarding is just how much more thought and positioning has to go into flying 2.0 mobile arcs than 1.0 turrets, and just how much gets completely invalidated when gunner Luke effectively brings back that outdated mechanic

Tell you what... do you have Vassal? What would you say to a 6 rock game between Luke/Han/MF/EU, and Patrol Leader/Vader/Minister Tua, using what we know about the 2.0 rules?