People are way too concerned about a single upgrade card when we still haven't seen the points for anything. We also haven't seen all the pilots and crew options out there. Admiral Sloane with a mini-swarm looks like a solid option to ruin the Falcon's day, even with Luke in the gunner slot, and that's without knowing any other options.

What if Luke ends up being a 20-25 point upgrade? They've said that Force abilities will have to pay a premium, and that's before adding the start of combat rotation.

20 minutes ago, Herowannabe said:

What I don’t get is why are people complaining so hard about Luke breaking the fundamentals of 2.0 (no 360degree Turrets) when Darth Vader breaks the fundamentals (limited PtL effects) just as bad. Possibly even worse, since Vader can take 3 actions per round, and potentially up to 5 actions in a single round if there are enough upgrades he can take that grant actions (1 from his regular action, 3 for spending force points, and 1 more with the linked focus > barrel roll).

Yet I haven’t heard a complaint about Vader. you people baffle me.

I mean, don’t get me wrong, I dislike 360 degree turrets as much as the next guy, and don’t have any strong desire to run gunner!Luke myself, but I still have serious doubts that Luke is going to be the big meta-monster that everyone is making him out to be. The falcon maybe, but I bet Luke will not end up featuring prominently in it at high levels.

For me its because vader has counterplay, you can block him and he shuts down. Luke Gunner has no counterplay.

I just dont see a reason for him to exist.

25 minutes ago, Icelom said:

For me its because vader has counterplay, you can block him and he shuts down. Luke Gunner has no counterplay.

I just dont see a reason for him to exist.

Luke has no counterplay that we know of. Of the stack of cards that the conversion kits have, there may be things that affect turrets. Heck, I would expect there is a damage card that prevents it moving - similar to the whole scene in the Force Awakens.

There are so many unknown factors.

54 minutes ago, Herowannabe said:

What I don’t get is why are people complaining so hard about Luke breaking the fundamentals of 2.0 (no 360degree Turrets) when Darth Vader breaks the fundamentals (limited PtL effects) just as bad. Possibly even worse, since Vader can take 3 actions per round, and potentially up to 5 actions in a single round if there are enough upgrades he can take that grant actions (1 from his regular action, 3 for spending force points, and 1 more with the linked focus > barrel roll).

Yet I haven’t heard a complaint about Vader. you people baffle me.

I mean, don’t get me wrong, I dislike 360 degree turrets as much as the next guy, and don’t have any strong desire to run gunner!Luke myself, but I still have serious doubts that Luke is going to be the big meta-monster that everyone is making him out to be. The falcon maybe, but I bet Luke will not end up featuring prominently in it at high levels.

Vader still needs to get people in arc though. That's not a concern for a ship with gunner Luke, assuming he rotates at the start of combat.

I need to see way more before I decide to worry about an expensive 3 dice turret with 1 agi that can boost or evade. If that's your list's gimmick, I sort of feel like "so be it".

50 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

People are way too concerned about a single upgrade card when we still haven't seen the points for anything. We also haven't seen all the pilots and crew options out there. Admiral Sloane with a mini-swarm looks like a solid option to ruin the Falcon's day, even with Luke in the gunner slot, and that's without knowing any other options.

What if Luke ends up being a 20-25 point upgrade? They've said that Force abilities will have to pay a premium, and that's before adding the start of combat rotation.

20-25 points is a complete steal for a card that shatters the fundamental design of the game

Vader does not do this

Vader is a Tie advance that can focus (with force) but can't evade nor boost without a two charge upgrade

Vader is arc locked and needs to use an action to TL to not be bad

Vader requires good play to be effective. Fat turrets do not

16 minutes ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Heck, I would expect there is a damage card that prevents it moving - similar to the whole scene in the Force Awakens.

There are so many unknown factors.

Damaged Sensor Array will... If the translation to Polish screwed up and Luke is a free rotate action. But given such a card would have had the rotate action picture on it, that seems improbable.

10 minutes ago, Incard said:

I need to see way more before I decide to worry about an expensive 3 dice turret with 1 agi that can boost or evade. If that's your list's gimmick, I sort of feel like "so be it".

Given that the only thing Fat Han 2.0 is missing at this point that his 1.0 counterpart had is an action-free offensive modification beyond his ability... I think you're forgetting what the Wave 4-6 metagame was like. I mean, if all this build can fit into a list after Fat Han 2.0 is a no-frills generic x-wing, it probably won't cause problems, but I'd rather that not be the Falcon's fate, personally.

@Squark I see what you mean, I suppose the difference I'm seeing is that 2nd edition Fat Han is incapable of automatically mitigating as much damage as the 1st edition version. No C-3P0 or R2-D2 crew (that we know of - this could change), and Evade tokens are much less valuable on 1 agi ships. The automatic damage mitigation was one of the crucial elements of Fat Han that made him such a menace, if I understand correctly (and if I believe the words of the Fat Han world champ who emphasized the importance of the damage mitigation).

Long as you have an evade (mf title) and Han ability, you're basically rolling into an evade with every attack (unless you're me)

Normally, not a problem. Gotta be smart with Han's arcs and positioning. Good, A+ design

With Luke? No need to worry just don't run on the asteroid. Back to the old days, except less defensive against single attacks and more defensive against multiple attacks esp at range 3/obstructed

1 hour ago, Incard said:

@Squark I see what you mean, I suppose the difference I'm seeing is that 2nd edition Fat Han is incapable of automatically mitigating as much damage as the 1st edition version. No C-3P0 or R2-D2 crew (that we know of - this could change), and Evade tokens are much less valuable on 1 agi ships. The automatic damage mitigation was one of the crucial elements of Fat Han that made him such a menace, if I understand correctly (and if I believe the words of the Fat Han world champ who emphasized the importance of the damage mitigation).

You are forgetting that he gets re-rolls on that defence dice, 1 if he has an evade, 2 (re-rolls the same 1 dice twice), if he has an, evade and is next to a rock.

2.0 han is more defensible then 1.0 against multiple attacks. against a single attack, ya probably c3p0 +evade is better.... I have not done the math on the double re-roll but it does not take many defense shots to have that be better than the 1.0 version with a crew slot freed up.

Even if Han rolls well and gets his maximum of 1 evade per attack at range 1-2, that is way less scary in my opinion compared to the 1st edition version.

1 minute ago, Incard said:

Even if Han rolls well and gets his maximum of 1 evade per attack at range 1-2, that is way less scary in my opinion compared to the 1st edition version.

Then you are just wrong?

or are only running 2 ship lists. With any kind of swarm you are pushing significantly less damage through on 2.0 han (with a freed up crew slot)

Nope, but have a good one!

Assuming 2nd edition Han has an Evade token, and is within range 1 of an obstacle and gets both rerolls, his odds of blanking out are (5/8)^3= 125/512. That means he gets an evade result 387/512 of the time; a tiny bit over 75% of the time. He is free to spend that evade token on the last of the shots against him, of course. So, if he is shot n times, he will, in this optimum scenario, get (n-1)(387/512)+1 evade results. Let's say 3 ships are shooting him, and they each get 2 hits. Under these optimal conditions, Han will expect to block 643/256 hits (about 2.5) and take 893/256 damage, or about 3.5. First Edition Fat Han gets 3 guaranteed damage mitigation, plus however many he rolls on the 2 non-c-3po defenses. Facing 3 attacks which each hit for 2 damage, 1st Edition Han blocks (or r2-d2s) 15/4 damage, or 3.75.

As far as a fun play experience goes, I think there are far fewer scenarios in which 2nd edition Han can just ignore what's left of the enemy list and win. 1st Edition Han could ignore the offense of a 3 die ship forever in the end game. 2nd Edition Han can be hit by a single TIE Fighter. That's what matters in the end, I think.

3 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

20-25 points is a complete steal for a card that shatters the fundamental design of the game

Vader does not do this

Vader is a Tie advance that can focus (with force) but can't evade nor boost without a two charge upgrade

Vader is arc locked and needs to use an action to TL to not be bad

Vader requires good play to be effective. Fat turrets do not

Vader is as wholesome as warm milk and a puppy.

10 minutes ago, Hawkstrike said:

Vader is as wholesome as warm milk and a puppy.

here's some more math on the defensive ability of 1st vs 2nd edition Han Solo:

1st edition can use an Evade token to block 1 damage, use C-3PO to guarantee an evade result, and use R2-D2 crew to recover 1 shield (under certain conditions, let's assume the best). This version of Han effectively blocks 3 damage each turn, plus an additional amount equal to the number of evades he rolls against attacks where C-3PO is not used. The number of damaged blocked as a function of the number of attacks faced in a single turn is d(a)= (3/8)(a-1)+3.

2nd edition Han can reroll his defense die once due to his pilot ability (let's assume the best for him, too: he's near an obstacle), and once more from the Millenium Falcon title (yes, he gets to reroll it twice). He can do this against any number of attacks, but he will presumably wait to use his evade token until the last attack against him in order to maximize the rerolling benefit. His evade token is only a 2nd edition token, however, and merely changes his die result to an evade, rather than adding an evade result. The odds on rolling an evade on a single die that you're allowed to reroll up to two times is almost exactly 3/4 (it's really 75.5+%). The number of damaged blocked as a function of the number of attacks faced in a single turn is d(a)=(3/4)(a-1)+1.

Here's a graph of both functions. It takes 7(!) attacks in a single turn before the 2nd edition Han blocks on average more damage than the 1st edition Han. And remember, for 2nd edition Han, only 1 block ever is guaranteed, compared to 3.

On 5/19/2018 at 5:59 PM, PenguinBonaparte said:

So apparently Luke Gunner Crew spends a force, which he gets back every turn, to rotate a turret. Am I missing something or does this mean that Rebel Han being at Initiative 6 and also having access to white boost actions with Engine Upgrade 2.0 is going to be pretty close to the current fat turret power level? It makes some sense I suppose that this combination will be more restricted to Han, but I'm nervous.

For Dash, at Initiative 5 iirc, there's at least the chance of a Soontir or Vader getting around his guesses, once we see how the reduced repositioning works, but most of your arced ships will be able to be consistently targeted and can't take a turn to get to safety or spread the damage.

I didn't feel like the Han Gunner crew quite made sense as explained, but it makes it seem like you can shoot twice, so once at Initiative *7* and then again at your ship's Initiative level, so long as you shoot out of separate arcs on those two-sided turrets. So maybe the opportunity cost might make you go for a different pilot-gunner combo, but that's not necessarily reassuring. I could see Gunner Han being the bee's knees on the new Dash, letting your toss out eight dice a turn.

Please tell me I've misunderstood something!

I was not playing back in the day of Fat Han dominance, but wasn’t C-3PO a big part of things? We don’t know what access the Falcon will have to defencive buffs nor do we know the point cost. If a kitted out Han eats 175/200 points, maybe it will be balanced. If blocking does not interfere with Luke’s affect, it still stops boosts - get those blockers in there?

Also if 2.0 han is tanking up, he isnt using his large base boost to avoid arcs.

Basically, Luke's weakness is that he makes turrets losing the jousting value war even more dramatic.

22 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

The only way Han is getting on a Deci, is in the form of rebel captive.

On an unrelated note, I want an alt art rebel captive that is Luke.

Let's wait till we have the card in English? That translation was pretty iffy.

When I started playing, I ran up against a murderer's row of fat turrets, superdash, fat han, RAC, etc. I played 5 Z-95s and a YV where previously I used 4 Z-95s and 2 ion hogs. It taught me a lot about the game, honestly, and when i started playing turrets and big ships later on, the knowledge really helped, but I always found the fatties beatable.

I mean, if people are expecting 58+ point ships to go down to a stiff breeze, they're nuts, but if you get guns on them they will die eventually- Miranda was always worse than the fatties, IMO, because Miranda could regen and had so many escape valve moves, whereas superdash's escape valve was generally more predictable.

I suspect in 2.0 it'll be harder to get the action economy to make the dice go crazy. A lot of hemming and hawing over the MF title+Han's ability defensively, but if you get the thing bumped(and it no longer has a 1-hard any more, a staple of my previous play), it can't get the evade token it needs to proc the title and reroll. The passive offense mods of gunner+predator are gone, as are PTL for TL+F. Even with the Luke Crew as it was, i'm curious as to what he does, and what he costs. Dealing with ships like that isn't that bad, IMO.

If you want lists that were extremely onerous to the more casual lists, well, there was palpaces. Authothrusters wasn't a bad idea but the range 3 stipulation was... ill-advised.

I'm guessing the reason why the 1300 lost the 1-hard is because the juke between 1-hard(boost) and 4-straight/3-bank(boost) made it too hard to chase down.

8 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

20-25 points is a complete steal for a card that shatters the fundamental design of the game

Vader does not do this

Vader is a Tie advance that can focus (with force) but can't evade nor boost without a two charge upgrade

Vader is arc locked and needs to use an action to TL to not be bad

Vader requires good play to be effective. Fat turrets do not

We haven't seen all the Force powers that Vader has access to. The preview for Maul says we're getting Dark Side powers, which doesn't fit anything that's been previewed to date.

Han has an edge against Fel, sure. But he's going to be weak against Boba, who Fel has an edge against. Plus, the nature of the large base will make it easier to line up bullseye arcs against him.

11 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

shatters the fundamental design of the game

That would only be true if tuning your turret would not be an action at all, but instead something you do in the system phase. But since it is an action there will always be ways to do it in reactivity if you just trough enough points at it.

besides, many cards "shatter the fundamental design of the game". But would you pay 12 points for an Intel Agent? Or Stay on Target?

I'm in the "wait for points costs" camp on this one. FFG have already said Force abilities will be expensive and IN6 pilots will be very expensive. What we're talking about here is a ship that's already going to be very expensive at its base cost and we're adding what's likely to be an extremely expensive upgrade to it as well. It's definitely a combo to keep an eye on and I suspect FFG will be doing so.

Fat Han was so good back in the day because of the combination of defensive and offensive power he had. With his PWT, reroll, Predator and Gunner you had guaranteed damage without actions and the title plus C3-P0 gave him excellent defence too. It remains to be seen how good a pseudo-PWT plus conditional rerolls are in 2nd edition.