3 hours ago, Freeptop said:

I'm guessing that you're interpreting the wording to mean that Han Gunner grants an attack at initiative 7, then allows the regular attack at normal initiative. But the card doesn't say that. Rules give you one attack. This one gives you one at IN 7, but only if you're using a mobile arc. It does not grant a bonus attack. What it does say is that if you have a way to get a bonus attack, you can't use your mobile arc for that bonus attack (and thus, it also isn't at IN 7).

I don't think this is correct, mainly for 2 reasons:

-AFAIK, no 'one attack per turn' blanket rule hasn't been confirmed for regular attacks, only for bonus.

-Cards that allow you to do something out of sequence but then NOT do it again when you normally could (like a Advanced Sensors does for actions) clearly state as such.

The way it appears to work, at least according to what we know:

-Engagement phase starts, Han allows a shot at I7.

-The regular Initiative of the ship with Han comes along. There is no blanket restriction that it can't shoot at all, only that it can't use the same mobile arc.

6 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

what's more intriguing is that his icons aren't arcs, but mobile arc indicators. So, if he's placed on something like a ghost or Y which has their mobile arc overlapping their primary, can that ship then shoot twice out of that same arc (once with turret, then with primary)?

But of course you can, tripple shoots with a docked ship is also allowed.. it is called rebel bias

3 hours ago, All Shields Forward said:

Fat Han same power level? Not really. With evades no longer adding extra dice, Fat Han can't absorb hits like he could with an evade action and C3PO. Damage will get pushed through by swarms. Plus to get rerolls he needs to stay near obstacles.

I strongly disagree vs a swam the new title is better than the old + C3P0

If I am getting shot by 8x ties I would rather have a re-roll on my evade dice for the first 7 attacks and an evade conversion for the 8th attack then 1x evade result + 1 C3P0 guess I have not done the math but 2.0 title feels much stronger vs a swarm and much weaker vs a 2 ship list.

1.0 Scenario
2x dice with focus vs 1x dice yields 1.148 damage

8x ties that's 9.184 hits take away 1 hit from the evade thats 8.184 take away .72 damage for C3P0 (on average if you goes 0) that's 7.464 hits a turn from an 8x tie swarm all at range 2 with a focus token

2.0 Scenario
2x dice with focus vs 1x dice yields 0.929 damage with the new title re-roll

8x ties that's 7.432 hits a turn from the 8x tie swarm and that's not even counting the fact the falcon would be free to spend the evade on the last turn bumping that damage down even more.

edit: with the evade token free to spend on the last round we end up with the average damage from the 8 ties being equal to 7x0.929 +1x0.563 = 7.066 damage a round.

So yep with math Han is tankier against a pure tie swarm in 2.0 then he was in 1.0 and that's not accounting for the open crew slot that c3po leaves.

I may have fugged the math up so feel free to correct me if i am wrong (coming off a hospital trip and its kind of late to be doing this)

(of course this all goes to **** if the ties die and its not facotring in the other ship in the han fleet, but to say new han is less tanky against a swarm in 2.0 is a lie, the more ships shooting at han the better the new title is compared to the old and C3-P0)

Another edit: against 7 ties 2.0 han is still tankier at 6.137 damage in 1.0 vs 6.316 in 2.0
against 6 ties we get 5.168 damage in 1.0 vs 5.208 in 2.0 so you need to get down to 6 ties or less for 1.0 han to be tankier then 2.0 han. (but only slightly really 6 ties it breaks even) And who knows what we can put in that crew slot to bring the 2.0 even tankier against swarms instead of 1.0 C3P0.

5 hours ago, ObiWonka said:

Nope. They've said all ships are limited to one bonus attack per round. So no 3 shots ever.

Han does not provide a bonus attack. He provides an attack. Then, you've shot your turret and

Ezra shoots out the back at 7 as well, using your bonus attack. And then when you get down to your normal Initiative, you shoot the front gun as a normal attack.

Something tells me ye olde Ghost will have crew slots but not a Gunner slot, in order to prevent all this.

15 minutes ago, skotothalamos said:

Han does not provide a bonus attack. He provides an attack. Then, you've shot your turret and

Ezra shoots out the back at 7 as well, using your bonus attack. And then when you get down to your normal Initiative, you shoot the front gun as a normal attack.

Something tells me ye olde Ghost will have crew slots but not a Gunner slot, in order to prevent all this.

It is extremely situational, in my entire X-wing career I've seen TIE/sf double tap maybe half a dozen times.

Although I guess you could reliably pull that off with enemies behind you - PS7 turret shot, then shuttle bonus attack, and then normal attack out of the rear at your normal PS.

Note that rear attack will be "just" 3 dice, and with TLT gone the turrets won't be as scary, possibly limited to range 2.

28 minutes ago, eMeM said:

It is extremely situational, in my entire X-wing career I've seen TIE/sf double tap maybe half a dozen times.

Although I guess you could reliably pull that off with enemies behind you - PS7 turret shot, then shuttle bonus attack, and then normal attack out of the rear at your normal PS.

Note that rear attack will be "just" 3 dice, and with TLT gone the turrets won't be as scary, possibly limited to range 2.

I get at least one double tap off a game if not more with my sf's.

It's not that hard. The ghost will be harder being a large base.

9 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

true, which makes it far easier to stomach than 1.0 turrets

but it's still two ships in one, like a far less abusive ghost//phantom. gotta keep an eye on it, provided it even works like I suspect

not sure if you can triple shot. bonus attacks seemed to be capped at 1 (two attacks total) according to the designer's during the unboxing stream

still does not explain why you would ever want to go back to something that directly contradicts the developer's stated intentions for 2.0. "it'll probably suck" is not a good excuse

also we're severly underestimating the power of han's re-rolls combined with the new MF title's re-rolls.

they'd be more than manageable if you had to juggle them with the mobile arcs (esp given lack of 1-turns), but with luke as currently spoiled any sort of critical decision making has been thrown out the window. With 1.0 mechanics, his ability + mf evade/arc-dodging will be trivial to accomplish

Indeed. If Han is essentially a large ship version of 1.0 Spec Ops Training plus Roark Garnet, he's still clearly really valuable, but he is probably more valuable for the Han-Shoots-First than anything else, and he still doesn't let you get shots you wouldn't have had without either clever movement on your part or stupid movement on your opponent's. Luke is something different.

3 hours ago, skotothalamos said:

Something tells me ye olde Ghost will have crew slots but not a Gunner slot, in order to prevent all this.

Indeed. With the distinction between crew and gunner, I'm hoping the outrider and ghost have the former, not the latter.

5 hours ago, skotothalamos said:

Han does not provide a bonus attack. He provides an attack.

True, but I wouldn't be surprised if a) any attack that's not your normal engagement is considered a bonus attack (honestly this would be the simplest way to do it and completely nip any shenanigans in the bud) and b) FFG still sucks at standardized wording.

I don't see why the Ghost triple-tap is such a big deal. In order to get an extra attack with a 3-die primary you are literally paying the price of a 3-die primary ship plus a gunner/Han upgrade. Remember that mods are harder to come by, we don't know the slots, Ezra+Maul won't be a thing, you have zero repositioning options on the Ghost, there is no TLT, we don't know most turrets, but both shown so far are range 1-2 etc etc.

It's way too early to complain.

Docked shuttle shouldn't be able to fire off Han, shuttle mentions front arc primary and turret upgrade, Han mentions mobile primary.

Han doesn't mention primary, it's just a mobile arc symbol.

Yeah came to realise that, shuttles turret symbol threw me off. Looking forward to having full rules, slots and points.

I't toke me some time, but after thinking about Luke for a while I came to the following conclusion: A Han with a big enough ini-bid offers almost the same advantage while still being able to take a different gunner that actually increases his damage output. As long as his point-costs are high enough to say "training-weals", i'm not to worried. If you have to spend 2/3 of your squad-points to get one turret that always gets to fire, that's fine (as long as it is not also a un-killable point-fortunes like old fat Han). The reals trouble starts if you can spam it, or stick it on any ship.

2 minutes ago, Duskwalker said:

I't toke me some time, but after thinking about Luke for a while I came to the following conclusion: A Han with a big enough ini-bid offers almost the same advantage while still being able to take a different gunner that actually increases his damage output. As long as his point-costs are high enough to say "training-weals", i'm not to worried. If you have to spend 2/3 of your squad-points to get one turret that always gets to fire, that's fine (as long as it is not also a un-killable point-fortunes like old fat Han). The reals trouble starts if you can spam it, or stick it on any ship.

Moving the turret without luke costs an action... its much much worse.

Just now, Icelom said:

Moving the turret without luke costs an action... its much much worse.

And taking Luke might mean your missing out on extra shots or extra damage. There is always a cost.

8 minutes ago, Duskwalker said:

And taking Luke might mean your missing out on extra shots or extra damage. There is always a cost.

Luke gives you:
-action efficiency
-free mods (if you don't move the turret)
-100% board knowledge removing the need for good flying

he spits in the face of what is the stated 2.0 design philosophy, even if he is not "overpowered" he changes the game by removing options that are simply hard countered if luke happens to show up.

even if say han gunner is better 90% of the time its the fact that Luke will force the meta away from arc dodgers because you simply can't afford to risk taking a tie interceptor if there is a chance luke shows up.

are you going to risk bringing a single token no 1.0 autothrusters 3 hit point tie interceptor if there is a chance you sit down against a list that will simply kill it without any skill at all from your opponent? they removed or nerfed the anti turret stuff from 1.0 (mainly autothrusters, but also token stacking).

It's really not about Luke gunner being overpowered it's about Luke gunner crapping all over certain ships with no chance at counterplay whatsoever.

10 hours ago, Icelom said:

I strongly disagree vs a swam the new title is better than the old + C3P0

2.0 Scenario
2x dice with focus vs 1x dice yields 0.929 damage with the new title re-roll

Don't forget that if Han stays in the rocks, he gets to reroll that defense die twice (once for pilot ability, once for title ability)

3 minutes ago, skotothalamos said:

Don't forget that if Han stays in the rocks, he gets to reroll that defense die twice (once for pilot ability, once for title ability)

So even tankier.... my math is way off....

19 minutes ago, Icelom said:

Luke gives you:
-action efficiency
-free mods (if you don't move the turret)
-100% board knowledge removing the need for good flying

he spits in the face of what is the stated 2.0 design philosophy, even if he is not "overpowered" he changes the game by removing options that are simply hard countered if luke happens to show up.

even if say han gunner is better 90% of the time its the fact that Luke will force the meta away from arc dodgers because you simply can't afford to risk taking a tie interceptor if there is a change luke shows up.

are you going to risk bringing a single token no 1.0 autothrusters 3 hit point tie interceptor if there is a change you sit down against a list that will simply kill it without any skill at all from your opponent? they removed or nerfed the anti turret stuff from 1.0 (mainly autothrusters, but also token stacking).

It's really not about Luke gunner being overpowered it's about Luke gunner crapping all over certain ships with no chance at counterplay whatsoever.

You mean like Assault Missiles hard countered the tie-swarms in the early days of 1.0? There will always be counters to certain lists, but in general, if X is strong against Y, but it terrible against every other letter in the alphabet people will not bring it, unless Y is so overpowered and so widespread that you need a counter at any cost. So as long as we don't introduce side-boarding into X-Wing a terrible card will not be played, no matter how good it is against one certain archetype.

Also consider this: If Han goes second, most of the time you will have arc anyway, since his ache still covers half the field and effective ache-dodging will be relegated to mostly guesswork, and even if you get out, most of the time as quick bust is enough to get you back in. So for most of the game Luke will be essentially a very expansive calculate token.

12 minutes ago, Icelom said:

So even tankier.... my math is way off....

The title makes the Falcon super tanky against multiple attacks, if the ship invests his action in an evade token.

Against a single attack the title does nothing unless you roll some bonus defense dice. Rerolling your only defense die does nothing when you have an evade token anyway.

Just now, nexttwelveexits said:

The title makes the Falcon super tanky against multiple attacks, if the ship invests his action in an evade token.

Against a single attack the title does nothing unless you roll some bonus defense dice. Rerolling your only defense die does nothing when you have an evade token anyway.

Yes hence why my whole breakdown was to counter the argument that he is worse than old han vs the swarm....

5 minutes ago, Duskwalker said:

You mean like Assault Missiles hard countered the tie-swarms in the early days of 1.0? There will always be counters to certain lists, but in general, if X is strong against Y, but it terrible against every other letter in the alphabet people will not bring it, unless Y is so overpowered and so widespread that you need a counter at any cost. So as long as we don't introduce side-boarding into X-Wing a terrible card will not be played, no matter how good it is against one certain archetype.

Also consider this: If Han goes second, most of the time you will have arc anyway, since his ache still covers half the field and effective ache-dodging will be relegated to mostly guesswork, and even if you get out, most of the time as quick bust is enough to get you back in. So for most of the game Luke will be essentially a very expansive calculate token.

You could break up your swarm to deal with assault missiles... there is no flying that deals with Gunner Luke.

I still don't think you see it, it's not that Luke Gunner is overpowered godly in all situations it's that he breaks the game in certain situations. A luke Gunner list may not be the top meta, it may not win any tournaments but it may shut out a huge assortment of ships for fear of running into him. Yes sometimes Luke gunner will just be a force token, that is not the point, the point is if i fly a generic interceptor it just dies to Luke Gunner no amount of flying on my part will mean anything in that situation.

I dont understand why he would be built into the game, all he has the potential to do is destroy the list of ships that can compete and brings nothing gameplay wise.

18 minutes ago, Icelom said:

You could break up your swarm to deal with assault missiles... there is no flying that deals with Gunner Luke.

I still don't think you see it, it's not that Luke Gunner is overpowered godly in all situations it's that he breaks the game in certain situations. A luke Gunner list may not be the top meta, it may not win any tournaments but it may shut out a huge assortment of ships for fear of running into him. Yes sometimes Luke gunner will just be a force token, that is not the point, the point is if i fly a generic interceptor it just dies to Luke Gunner no amount of flying on my part will mean anything in that situation.

I dont understand why he would be built into the game, all he has the potential to do is destroy the list of ships that can compete and brings nothing gameplay wise.

No, I understand what you are trying to say but then thing is: in a healthy game, meta tends sort it self out.

If it's not good people will not play it -> if nobody plays it you don't have to worry about it and it is not shutting out anything.

And if all else fail, FFG already said they want to introduce rotating ban-lists.

What I don’t get is why are people complaining so hard about Luke breaking the fundamentals of 2.0 (no 360degree Turrets) when Darth Vader breaks the fundamentals (limited PtL effects) just as bad. Possibly even worse, since Vader can take 3 actions per round, and potentially up to 5 actions in a single round if there are enough upgrades he can take that grant actions (1 from his regular action, 3 for spending force points, and 1 more with the linked focus > barrel roll).

Yet I haven’t heard a complaint about Vader. you people baffle me.

I mean, don’t get me wrong, I dislike 360 degree turrets as much as the next guy, and don’t have any strong desire to run gunner!Luke myself, but I still have serious doubts that Luke is going to be the big meta-monster that everyone is making him out to be. The falcon maybe, but I bet Luke will not end up featuring prominently in it at high levels.

6 minutes ago, Herowannabe said:

What I don’t get is why are people complaining so hard about Luke breaking the fundamentals of 2.0 (no 360degree Turrets) when Darth Vader breaks the fundamentals (limited PtL effects) just as bad. Possibly even worse, since Vader can take 3 actions per round, and potentially up to 5 actions in a single round if there are enough upgrades he can take that grant actions (1 from his regular action, 3 for spending force points, and 1 more with the linked focus > barrel roll).

Yet I haven’t heard a complaint about Vader. you people baffle me.

I mean, don’t get me wrong, I dislike 360 degree turrets as much as the next guy, and don’t have any strong desire to run gunner!Luke myself, but I still have serious doubts that Luke is going to be the big meta-monster that everyone is making him out to be. The falcon maybe, but I bet Luke will not end up featuring prominently in it at high levels.

Because expectations are mostly based on past experience. Vader was never a serious problem in the past, so we assume he will not be in the future.