So apparently Luke Gunner Crew spends a force, which he gets back every turn, to rotate a turret. Am I missing something or does this mean that Rebel Han being at Initiative 6 and also having access to white boost actions with Engine Upgrade 2.0 is going to be pretty close to the current fat turret power level? It makes some sense I suppose that this combination will be more restricted to Han, but I'm nervous.

For Dash, at Initiative 5 iirc, there's at least the chance of a Soontir or Vader getting around his guesses, once we see how the reduced repositioning works, but most of your arced ships will be able to be consistently targeted and can't take a turn to get to safety or spread the damage.

I didn't feel like the Han Gunner crew quite made sense as explained, but it makes it seem like you can shoot twice, so once at Initiative *7* and then again at your ship's Initiative level, so long as you shoot out of separate arcs on those two-sided turrets. So maybe the opportunity cost might make you go for a different pilot-gunner combo, but that's not necessarily reassuring. I could see Gunner Han being the bee's knees on the new Dash, letting your toss out eight dice a turn.

Please tell me I've misunderstood something!

you pretty much got luke

if he's as he was translated in the polish spoilers, we're back to 1.0 turrets and defeating the purpose of 2.0 in one fell swoop. It is a disastrously stupid design decision that I can only hope is the result of poor translation or some masterful trolling

Han I have no idea. you can definitely shoot twice out of two different sides, which really isn't that big a deal. You need a VERY obliging opponent to set that up.

what's more intriguing is that his icons aren't arcs, but mobile arc indicators. So, if he's placed on something like a ghost or Y which has their mobile arc overlapping their primary, can that ship then shoot twice out of that same arc (once with turret, then with primary)?

Huh, that would be interesting. I guess with Dash just having a Doughnut Depression rather than a Doughnut Hole I could imagine Dash keeping arcs sideways flying straight in and causing some problems, and if they end up at range 2, all the better? I'm just imagining that the double-turret icon just is the sum of two single icons, but you're right, this is going to remain a bit of a mystery until we get a rule-book or an obliging demo game.

I guess at least Luke is mostly going to go with Han and so it'll probably end up being one or two very specific turret builds and it's just Rebels?

Also I think if Tie Swarms end up working as we hope at least they'll still be able to burn one of those down pretty quickly. Without C3PO those Han lists weren't so bad. Really it was Predator Chewie with 3PO who was immune to everything that was the real harbinger of the end times.

2 minutes ago, PenguinBonaparte said:

Huh, that would be interesting. I guess with Dash just having a Doughnut Depression rather than a Doughnut Hole I could imagine Dash keeping arcs sideways flying straight in and causing some problems, and if they end up at range 2, all the better? I'm just imagining that the double-turret icon just is the sum of two single icons, but you're right, this is going to remain a bit of a mystery until we get a rule-book or an obliging demo game.

I guess at least Luke is mostly going to go with Han and so it'll probably end up being one or two very specific turret builds and it's just Rebels?

Yes just rebels, but the 2 big turret ships the yt's will basically have him stapled on unless he costs a fortune or the polish card is not correct. Lukes turret move appears to be able to happen in the combat phase so no amount of initiative will save you.

Wait, during the Engagement Phase? Why FFG, why???????

4 minutes ago, Icelom said:

Yes just rebels, but the 2 big turret ships the yt's will basically have him stapled on unless he costs a fortune or the polish card is not correct. Lukes turret move appears to be able to happen in the combat phase so no amount of initiative will save you.

Speaking as someone from the **** that is central europe (not polish), translation errors are not unheard of. Our destiny cards were translated horribly. There is a slight chance of that happening

3 minutes ago, PenguinBonaparte said:

Wait, during the Engagement Phase? Why FFG, why???????

This is from google transalte so take it for what it is but its the best i have

"at the beginning of the combat phase, you can spend 1 'force token' it to turn the pointer" - google translate of the polish card.

3 minutes ago, PenguinBonaparte said:

Wait, during the Engagement Phase? Why FFG, why???????

Let's hope it's wrong because it would be an example of the "perfect information" sort of mechanic that 2.0 is supposed to be avoiding in favor of tough decisions.

If this were something like the beginning of the system phase or whatever, before ships move, or maybe after combat, then that would be interesting because you'd have to take a guess. The latter would kind of be like trying to lead targets.

I'm obviously a frustrated Tie player who hates how turrets are in the game now, but I'm not trying to go all ragey or say they shouldn't exist. If they actually required you to do something, ****, maybe I'd even like them. But I keep getting my hopes up, have been insanely jazzed for 2.0, and am now afraid of being burned again.

I think the “tough decision” part of gunner!Luke will be during list building. He likely costs an arm and a leg in points to equip, plus if you equip him then you can’t equip anyone else in that gunner slot (kinda reminds me of crew!luke in 1.0 actually... and how often did you see him played competitively?)

Plus, if you’re a skilled player then the vast majority of the time you’re going to already have your arc pointed where you want it, making gunner!Luke nothing more than a really expensive force token.

I predict gunner!Luke will not make much of a splash in the competitive scene, unless he’s ridiculously underpriced.

I really think this is an overreaction. Fat Han didn't just dominate the meta because he had a PWT. It was a combination of things:

1. PWT (Yes, it's a prereq but not sufficient on its own).

2. Extremely maneuverable.

3. 3PO, R2, and the Falcon title made him insanely tanky, to the point that it was basically impossible to push damage through in a one-on-one endgame situation.

4. Cheap enough to fly a real ship alongside him. (Corran was common).

So let's see:

1. Let's assume the translation is correct. Luke is unique, and he's going to cost an arm and a leg. Obviously this is guesswork, but does anyone really want to bet he'll run less than 15 points? I wouldn't rule out something north of 20. Either way, we're talking about 'almost enough for another ship' territory. Also, by using it every round, you're giving up the force point that could be used to adjust dice results.

2. Somewhat better, as the 1300 has lost its 1-turns. It has native boost, but it's red. Ok, so you can put Engine Upgrade on it, but we know they're planning to adjust upgrade prices by the ship and pilot receiving them. "Engine Upgrade on a Large Ship" is a prime candidate for exactly that.

3. I will bet all the money in my pockets that 3PO and R2 are considerably weaker, for precisely this reason. The Falcon title is more powerful, but it is almost certainly more expensive as well.

4. Are we starting to see a pattern? You're (very likely) pouring points into this to reproduce the most rudimentary parts of the old Fat Han build, just so you can get a reliable 3-die attack. And we know they're planning to charge a major premium on high Initiative ranks and powerful pilot abilities. Again, Han is a prime candidate. How many points are left for a quality wingmate? PWT all you want, but I'll take a lot of lists over Han and Some Scrub.

A lot of abilities that made Han so dangerous are now A: more expensive and B: no longer action independent. And PtL is gone. If you boost, you can't evade and bring the title online. If you evade, you didn't boost or target lock. If you spend Luke's token to turn the turret, you don't have it for the action-independent mod.

It's also worth asking what the opportunity cost for Luke is. The other gunners look pretty good, and they might be cheaper. If another, cheaper gunner provides action-independent mods, is it THAT much less powerful? Han's a 6; he just uses his action to move the arc and then gets the mod.

So let's say I'm flying against Han. I split my forces, so that you've got a shot, but maybe on a less vulnerable target. Do you burn Luke's force token to move the arc, or do you take a target locked shot with force mods against the available target? You might move the arc, but it's not such a slam dunk that I'm sure I want to burn a huge pile of points for it.

He's potent, and you can argue that it's a poor design decision, but it's not a sky-is-falling situation. There were other PWTs; only Han dominated the meta. If Luke's expensive enough, and R2 and 3PO are powered down, it'll be fine.

I'm guessing that Han will cost so much fully loaded, there wont be much space for much of anything else. Same for Dash.

I agree it's probably not going to be devastating, yet we have a history of thinking that before. I had the privilege to briefly chat with Alex Davy at an event way back when (and from my extremely limited interactions he is a terrific person!) and he thought Dash and the Decimator wouldn't make a big change, just diversify the existing turret lists a little. So this makes me nervous.

What killed me was Falcons that ended up being immune to damage and blocking from my Ties, so I think it'll be possible to burn down. Without PtL on Han I'm hoping the boosting won't be as bad as well. So Luke'll likely only be good on a couple of specific, maybe even more movie-thematic builds I hope, and if so I wouldn't mind. But it is concerning, and pretty weird given how much they've talked about removing all the things that this seems to do from 2.0, and how it jumps outside of and essentially breaks fundamental timing rules.

Also, I didn't realize there was already a thread on this. Saw Striker in the title and didn't look at it. Sorry!

it's not really just a question of dominating the meta, it's just baffling. the developers saw turrets were a problem, designed a whole new edition focused on maneuvering, destroyed the 1.0 turret mechanic and replaced it with mobile arcs,...and now it's back to 1.0? Why!?

anyway, nothing short of a translation error is going to what this situation any better. Otherwise, it comes out and spits in the face of the developer's stated designs, or it gets costed into oblivion to the point where you have to wonder why they bothered designing it in the first place.

it is an evolutionary dead end

which is why Han gunner is far more interesting. I really want to know if you can double up on attacks by aligning your mobile with your primary

3 minutes ago, Brianish said:

I really think this is an overreaction. Fat Han didn't just dominate the meta because he had a PWT. It was a combination of things:

1. PWT (Yes, it's a prereq but not sufficient on its own).

2. Extremely maneuverable.

3. 3PO, R2, and the Falcon title made him insanely tanky, to the point that it was basically impossible to push damage through in a one-on-one endgame situation.

4. Cheap enough to fly a real ship alongside him. (Corran was common).

So let's see:

1. Let's assume the translation is correct. Luke is unique, and he's going to cost an arm and a leg. Obviously this is guesswork, but does anyone really want to bet he'll run less than 15 points? I wouldn't rule out something north of 20. Either way, we're talking about 'almost enough for another ship' territory. Also, by using it every round, you're giving up the force point that could be used to adjust dice results.

2. Somewhat better, as the 1300 has lost its 1-turns. It has native boost, but it's red. Ok, so you can put Engine Upgrade on it, but we know they're planning to adjust upgrade prices by the ship and pilot receiving them. "Engine Upgrade on a Large Ship" is a prime candidate for exactly that.

3. I will be all the money in my pockets that 3PO and R2 are considerably weaker, for precisely this reason. The Falcon title is more powerful, but it is almost certainly more expensive as well.

4. Are we starting to see a pattern? You're (very likely) pouring points into this to reproduce the most rudimentary parts of the old Fat Han build, just so you can get a reliable 3-die attack. And we know they're planning to charge a major premium on high Initiative ranks and powerful pilot abilities. Again, Han is a prime candidate. How many points are left for a quality wingmate? PWT all you want, but I'll take a lot of lists over Han and Some Scrub.

A lot of abilities that made Han so dangerous are now A: more expensive and B: no longer action independent. And PtL is gone. If you boost, you can't evade and bring the title online. If you evade, you didn't boost or target lock. If you spend Luke's token to turn the turret, you don't have it for the action-independent mod.

It's also worth asking what the opportunity cost for Luke is. The other gunners look pretty good, and they might be cheaper. If another, cheaper gunner provides action-independent mods, is it THAT much less powerful? Han's a 6; he just uses his action to move the arc and then gets the mod.

So let's say I'm flying against Han. I split my forces, so that you've got a shot, but maybe on a less vulnerable target. Do you burn Luke's force token to move the arc, or do you take a target locked shot with force mods against the available target? You might move the arc, but it's not such a slam dunk that I'm sure I want to burn a huge pile of points for it.

He's potent, and you can argue that it's a poor design decision, but it's not a sky-is-falling situation. There were other PWTs; only Han dominated the meta. If Luke's expensive enough, it'll be fine.

The point is why that ability in the game because it either has to be costed stupid high so its pointless or its overpowered because it breaks a fundamental design of 2.0

It may not end up being overpowered, but what it may do is push out a bunch of lists that could compete if it did not exist. Interceptors, for example, are much less token stacky and will have to 100% rely on arc dodging in 2.0 Luke gunner might just mean you can never play interceptors for fear of luke gunner showing up regardless of how overpowered luke ends up not being.

I think that's what people are missing it's not that luke gunner will be overpowered its that he may just effectively remove a ton of other ships from being competitive. How many points are interceptors and a-wings paying for there super arc dodgy action bars? that are hard countered by luke gunner.

Hard counters are bad game design.

With Luke on Han, it will work similar to how the current Fat Han works, but there are some big limitations/differences. We don't know what C3PO does, if he's even a crew, almost everything we have seen severely limits the amount of added evade results, so he should only be evading 1 hit automatically per round. Han's ability has both been nerfed and buffed, works for defense, and still reroll with other effects, but he needs to be at range 0-1 of an obstacle. He can't use predator unless the ship is in the bullseye. Luke doesn't allow another attack if he misses, and doesn't change and results, unless he doesn't move the arcs,then he changes 1 focus. Taking Luke also prevents the Veteran Turret Gunner. Han also loses the 1 turn. Most importantly, we have no idea how much any of this will cost, so it could be great, and work just like old Fat Han, but it will probably cost the equivalent of 60+points (120+) if they try to keep a balanced game.

But the power to push them out of the meta relies on a build that makes the numbers game irrelevant. Token stacking is harder, yes, but so are fully-modded shots. You're dumping all these points to reliably get one partially-modded 3-die shot per turn. It simply doesn't look to me like the silver bullet it used to be.

and yet, partially modified shots were all fat han needed to necessitate the introduction of autothrusters and the gradual toilet-bowl spiral into later x-wing 1.0

it's like we've all forgotten what happened not that long ago

while I personally believe a Han gunner ghost will be FAR stronger if it works like I think it does, there really is no reason to believe bringing back 1.0 turrets is okay for any reason

1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

while I personally believe a Han gunner ghost will be FAR stronger if it works like I think it does, there really is no reason to believe bringing back 1.0 turrets is okay for any reason

Oh @*&@#*@^&~!

4 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

and yet, partially modified shots were all fat han needed to necessitate the introduction of autothrusters and the gradual toilet-bowl spiral into later x-wing 1.0

it's like we've all forgotten what happened not that long ago

while I personally believe a Han gunner ghost will be FAR stronger if it works like I think it does, there really is no reason to believe bringing back 1.0 turrets is okay for any reason

Yep i think han gunner will be very strong, but you can arc dodge him.

Except that, again, that wasn't all he needed. It was the partially-modded shots, in combination with action-light durability and an unbeatable endgame, all at a price point that allowed for a good enough wingman to force your opponent into a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation. He was able to stick around until the dice inevitably went his way.

So we're thinking Han gunner on Ghost will provide 3 shots? One from an equipped turret, then you can primary out the front and the back if there's a shuttle docked? If of course you have targets in those arcs.

Just now, PenguinBonaparte said:

So we're thinking Han gunner on Ghost will provide 3 shots? One from an equipped turret, then you can primary out the front and the back if there's a shuttle docked? If of course you have targets in those arcs.

I think so. you do need your opponent to line up in your front and back arc to make it work.

6 minutes ago, Icelom said:

Yep i think han gunner will be very strong, but you can arc dodge him.

true, which makes it far easier to stomach than 1.0 turrets

but it's still two ships in one, like a far less abusive ghost//phantom. gotta keep an eye on it, provided it even works like I suspect

not sure if you can triple shot. bonus attacks seemed to be capped at 1 (two attacks total) according to the designer's during the unboxing stream

5 minutes ago, Brianish said:

Except that, again, that wasn't all he needed. It was the partially-modded shots, in combination with action-light durability and an unbeatable endgame, all at a price point that allowed for a good enough wingman to force your opponent into a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation. He was able to stick around until the dice inevitably went his way.

still does not explain why you would ever want to go back to something that directly contradicts the developer's stated intentions for 2.0. "it'll probably suck" is not a good excuse

also we're severly underestimating the power of han's re-rolls combined with the new MF title's re-rolls.

they'd be more than manageable if you had to juggle them with the mobile arcs (esp given lack of 1-turns), but with luke as currently spoiled any sort of critical decision making has been thrown out the window. With 1.0 mechanics, his ability + mf evade/arc-dodging will be trivial to accomplish

4 minutes ago, Icelom said:

I think so. you do need your opponent to line up in your front and back arc to make it work.

Nope. They've said all ships are limited to one bonus attack per round. So no 3 shots ever.