3 minutes ago, Icelom said:

We don't know if he has a talent slot, and we don't know if squad leader exists. ( i think I remember a form of it, may have been a force power one but we don't know if a talent one exists.)

Also if elusive is cheap enough on ties...... and you can swarm with it that's pure money on the swarm.

We know squad leader exists (imperial preview) and if that ellusive is right next time Rudor just to mislead us...

5 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

We know squad leader exists (imperial preview) and if that ellusive is right next time Rudor just to mislead us...

Then he will be a beast, as he can basically put back a token on a tie after the first time its shot at.

Some very strong tie swarm ships available.... hard to look at some of the atrociously flown black squadron demos and use them as any kind of metric. Well flown swarms with Howl, Valen, and Iden would be a much better gauge.

26 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

It's situational, like most things in the game. It could be huge, or nothing. Rudor might get to Barrel Roll to get a shot if an ace fires before him. Or, if facing more than one enemy he can BR out of arc. Someone fires Cluster Missile and he can BR away to not be in range. Rudor can BR to be out of Bullseye arc or maybe moves to put someone in Bullseye.

Rudor could get a Focus if he doesn't have it.

Rudor could get an Evade action to help defend.

Maybe there is an Action Talent he can use.

Maybe there is an ally ship with buff for those in range and he can BR closer to get the buff.

He definitly isn't bad and depending on price a neat choice (and as others have mentioned, squad leader could very well be a thing on him), but his effect isn't as great in the formation(-ish) swarms that Howlrunner facilitates. If there are other things I want to spend points on in such a list, he is the first pilot to go.

15 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

He definitly isn't bad and depending on price a neat choice (and as others have mentioned, squad leader could very well be a thing on him), but his effect isn't as great in the formation(-ish) swarms that Howlrunner facilitates. If there are other things I want to spend points on in such a list, he is the first pilot to go.

Below I was in error, you can only squad leader once.

You do realize his action does not happen once right?

In a swarm he is going to be handing out actions with squad leader to an insane degree, he will have to be the first target to take down even over howl.

The pilot ability was amazing in his TAP (went away for me when 50x tacticians and stress droids showed up in the meta) but holy crap was it strong. put him in a swarm with squad leader and you are going to be dripping in tokens and barrel rolls for your swarm.

Edit: you can only squad leader once, I forgot. I still think he is very strong.

7 hours ago, william1134 said:

Agreed, it is a shame that most dials are changing except the tie fighter... in fact the only thing that has changed for them is how evade is worse.

They aren't changing the TIE fighter cuz everything is being brought back down to their power level.

Note about squadleader + Rudor

Red coordinate with some limitations

It's not going to be godlike as it has built in limitations (biggest one being Rudor can't give out free locks). Still, it can be quite cool

1 minute ago, Icelom said:

You do realize his action does not happen once right?

In a swarm he is going to be handing out actions with squad leader to an insane degree, he will have to be the first target to take down even over howl.

The pilot ability was amazing in his TAP (went away for me when 50x tacticians and stress droids should up in the meta) but holy crap was it strong. put him in a swarm with squad leader and you are going to be dripping in tokens and barrel rolls for your swarm.

You can only do an action once, that hasn't changed, right? So in a swarm you can coordinate one token (probably evade to the target of the attack), take a second token (which won't be relevant if you aren't the next target), and then barrel roll (which you in a formation rarely want to). In a TAP things are a bit different, since it fights on its own and has boost and target lock as extra options. Like I said, Rudor will not be bad, especially as a squad leader vehicle (pending point cost), but I don't see him on the same power level as Versio or Howlrunner of course.

3 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

You can only do an action once, that hasn't changed, right? So in a swarm you can coordinate one token (probably evade to the target of the attack), take a second token (which won't be relevant if you aren't the next target), and then barrel roll (which you in a formation rarely want to). In a TAP things are a bit different, since it fights on its own and has boost and target lock as extra options. Like I said, Rudor will not be bad, especially as a squad leader vehicle (pending point cost), but I don't see him on the same power level as Versio or Howlrunner of course.

Ya, that's true I overthought myself...

But its still very nice to toss a replacement token on the target of the attack. He will keep ships alive. (certainly help Howlrunner stay alive)

Definitly. He will be a viable option and worth a try, but maybe other options (I'm looking to run 3 Interceptors/3 Fighters like I said earlier, doesn't work as well as I had thought, but could still be neat) will demand the points.

54 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

He definitly isn't bad and depending on price a neat choice (and as others have mentioned, squad leader could very well be a thing on him), but his effect isn't as great in the formation(-ish) swarms that Howlrunner facilitates. If there are other things I want to spend points on in such a list, he is the first pilot to go.

Everything isn't as good as Howlrunner. Everything not as good as her isn't bad.

I expect howlie to be pretty expensive, because of the new 2.0 environment where 2-dice primaries aren't worthless and because she can now fully modify her own attack (and elusive is very nice)

Random guess is no more howlie 7 swarm, but probably howlie 6 ship crackswarm

Based on absolutely nothing more than a hunch

Tie Swarm now looks pretty legit to me again, if decently costed. All the other ships lost some insane combos. That’s why in 1.0 they are now, unlike in the beginning of the game, not that inpressive anymore, Especially bombs, Harpoons and Assault missiles really ruin their day now. And some of these Might very well change with 2.0.

X-Wngs also got a tad stronger, but honestly when 1.0 came out they were no match dor the Ties. So maybe this time they start on even ground.

Do have to stress the "tad stronger"

Some folks are acting like the X buff is REBEL BIAS when it got 1 Hull (no more integrated though), a slightly better dial, and barrelroll

3 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

No. X Wings were always behind TIEs, the 'only four' limitation was always arbitrary and unfair to them. Hence why TIEs stayed relevant right through to the latter days of Jumpmasters, but the only X Wing to be relevant since about wave 3 was Biggles.

Agreed in the hands of an expert, I disagree in the hands of your average gamer who buys and plays the game. X-Wings, for the vast majority of players that own the game will be notably superior to the TIE/LN even on pairs 2 to 1 and costs are equal. I'm sure that expert players will get a lot of mileage out of the TIE swarm as happened years ago in 1.0, however, it will be a far higher hill to climb and it looks as if swarms of other chassis will be superior. I'm not trying to speculate negatively, I actually have a big issue with the modifications to some chassis and no alterations to others.

Bias aside, answer me this, after looking at the dials in detail and their action bars: why would an X-Wing be as or arguably more maneuverable than a TIE/LN?

If you see what I see, how does this dovetail with the mantra of the game, " Take control of powerful Rebel X-wings and nimble Imperial TIE fighters!"

Can the TIE's even be deemed as "nimble" in comparison with the "powerful" X-Wings anymore?

anyone hear if Wampa made the cut? I do so love Wampa.....

The Xwing dial isn't "better" than the TIE

It's more analogous now (k and trolls v two Ks, speed 1 banks/straight v speed 1 turns and 5 straight)

Besides, having skill disparity between ships is fine. That's kinda necessary for variety, and some factions have to be more forgiving than others

The key is that you also have to be rewarded for flying better with less forgiving ships

I'd have to imagine Xwings will get obliterated if they joust a howlie swarm. If they get outplayed by their opponent (forced into an engagement that favors TIEghtly knit TIEs) then they'll get screwed and all will be right with Xwing 2.0

3 hours ago, Squark said:

FFG seems to be trying to bring most ships in line with roughly where the Original Tie Swarm was, so it makes sense the changes are minimal. As for the dial remaining unchanged... You get what you pay for. The Z-95 and Scyk will almost certainly have dials very close to their originals as well.

Yeah, I get that kinda, but it’s that logic (when applied to maneuverability buffs to the X-Wing and none to the TIE/LN) flies (pardon the pun) in direct conflict with the game’s mantra, “Take control of powerful Rebel X-wings and nimble Imperial TIE fighters!”

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

The Xwing dial isn't "better" than the TIE

It's more analogous now (k and trolls v two Ks, speed 1 banks/straight v speed 1 turns and 5 straight)

The X-Wing isn’t supposed to have better maneuverability than a TIE/LN, it’s supposed to be a powerful ship, not a nimble one.

The X-Wing is more powerful, fine, cool. But it’s also more nimble. In contrast, the TIE/LN is the same in power and maneuverability, therefore it has lost some of what makes it nimble in comparison to its now more powerful counterpart. I see the X-Wing dial as now equal or even better than the TIE’s, and I’m not alone.

Doesn’t this track?

....where’s my tea? Really.

36 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

The X-Wing isn’t supposed to have better maneuverability than a TIE/LN, it’s supposed to be a powerful ship, not a nimble one.

The X-Wing is more powerful, fine, cool. But it’s also more nimble. In contrast, the TIE/LN is the same in power and maneuverability, therefore it has lost some of what makes it nimble in comparison to its now more powerful counterpart. I see the X-Wing dial as now equal or even better than the TIE’s, and I’m not alone.

Doesn’t this track?

....where’s my tea? Really.

I guess I see some of that, although mainly due to the barrel roll nerf- The "Matador Turn*" played a big role in the Tie Fighter's early success, but the barrel roll nerf killed that. That in turn means the access to a 1-turn is less meaningful and brings the dials a lot closer together. So yeah, I guess I do see some of your frustration; while other imperial ships like the Tie Advanced are getting the same treatment the x-wing did, it can seem a little unfair that one faction's single most iconic fighter is getting new tricks while the other is largely unchanged. On the other hand, as other's have said before, the X-wing needed the change. The Tie Fighter didn't. It's not really favoritism to pay more attention to underperformer if you're trying to bring them up to par- But it can certainly feel that way.

... Also, I can't actually find the, "Take control of powerful Rebel X-wings and nimble Imperial TIE fighters,” line anywhere in the 2nd edition media, so perhaps the design goals have shifted somewhat?

*1-turn, then barrel-roll backwards towards your original position. Example on Echolocation (You want the bottom right Tie Fighter; unfortunately Echolocation doesn't seem to want to link to an image of only a single barrel roll)

1 hour ago, clanofwolves said:

The X-Wing isn’t supposed to have better maneuverability than a TIE/LN, it’s supposed to be a powerful ship, not a nimble one.

The X-Wing is more powerful, fine, cool. But it’s also more nimble. In contrast, the TIE/LN is the same in power and maneuverability, therefore it has lost some of what makes it nimble in comparison to its now more powerful counterpart. I see the X-Wing dial as now equal or even better than the TIE’s, and I’m not alone.

Doesn’t this track?

....where’s my tea? Really.

"Enter the next era of interstellar combat in the Star Wars galaxy! In X-Wing Second Edition, you assemble a squadron of iconic starfighters from across the Star Wars saga and engage in fast-paced, high-stakes space combat with iconic pilots such as Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader.

With refined gameplay that focuses on the physical act of flying starships, X-Wing Second Edition lets you create your own Star Wars space battles right on your tabletop. Intuitive mechanics create the tense atmosphere of a firefight while beautifully pre-painted miniatures draw you deeper into the action. Man your ships and enter the fray!" -https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/x-wing-second-edition/

don't see nothing about no nimble TIEs nor powerful X-wings

" Few sounds can strike fear into the heart of a starfighter pilot like the howl of an incoming group of Imperial TIE/ln fighters. The iconic fighter of the Galactic Empire, the TIE’s namesake twin ion engines deliver impressive speed and pinpoint maneuverability. Although its lightweight frame lacks deflector shields or a hyperdrive, its affordability allows the Empire to deploy TIE fighters in great numbers to crush any Rebel resistance. " - https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/x-wing-second-edition/products/tieln-fighter-expansion-pack/

2.0 knows what's up

If I had an objection to the new version, it's that the TIE/ln didn't pick up any Sengors Loops. The T-65 got the T-75's reds, why didn't the TIE Fighter get the TIE/FO's sloops?

3 hours ago, Squark said:

I guess I see some of that, although mainly due to the barrel roll nerf- The "Matador Turn*" played a big role in the Tie Fighter's early success, but the barrel roll nerf killed that. That in turn means the access to a 1-turn is less meaningful and brings the dials a lot closer together. So yeah, I guess I do see some of your frustration...

It simply is a nerfed chassis.... sad for 2.0 IMO.

3 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

"Enter the next era of...

...more powerful and manuverable X-Wings and the almost same 1.0 TIE/LNs except they cannot old-school barrel roll, so they’re actually nerfed.

7 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

...more powerful and manuverable X-Wings and the almost same 1.0 TIE/LNs except they cannot old-school barrel roll, so they’re actually nerfed.

lol no

X-wings cannot old-school barrel roll either, literally no one can

X-wings lost integrated astromech for a hull

Flight Assist Astro is nowhere to be seen

Red t-rolls aren't as good as changing 3-turns to red t-rolls on a whim

They're better than they were on release...when they were among the absolute worst ships in the game, but not better than they are in 1.0 esp with Saw's coming. Everyone's been nerfed...except the TIE fighter (and arguably the phantom, which has been buffed v anything that could out PS whisper...which was a LOT). ****, Howlie got buffed and Iden/Rudor have really good abilities

we're really reaching to try and cast TIE fighters as something other than what'll probably end up being: a part of one of the scariest archetypes in the game. A swarm is going to be ******* frightening, just as they used to be in the early days of X-wing 1.0

I'd go so far as to say that any medium/large base, not so maneuverable ship is effectively DOA without reinforce or some means to counter swarms because otherwise they'll just get mulched

11 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Do have to stress the "tad stronger"

Some folks are acting like the X buff is REBEL BIAS when it got 1 Hull (no more integrated though), a slightly better dial, and barrelroll

Well, it’s not even a real buff, they basically got all their 1.0 fixes written into their new statline.

That’s certainly not rebel bias either. After all their 1.0 self was found severely lacking for ages and if i got a buck fir every fix X-Wing thread here, my 2.0 conversion cost would be covered.

Tie Fighters were the better base ship in 1.0. They dominated the game early on, and only got really caught up by power creep much later than the X-Wing. If the game now starts fresh, and with all the changes we will have to see how they fare. But point adaptations might really be all that’s needed to keep both ships viable for a long, long time.