I’ve heard that Advanced Ailerons takes priority over Twin Ion Engine Mk.II, meaning the three banks remain white. Is that right? I can’t get my head round it - surely I can choose to treat then as green?

The current RAW is that if two effects change the difficulty of a move, the more difficult one wins.

So Ailerons' white being more difficult than Mk2's green, Ailerons wins.

16 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

The current RAW is that if two effects change the difficulty of a move, the more difficult one wins.

So Ailerons' white being more difficult than Mk2's green, Ailerons wins.

But doesn't R2 Astromech's ability overwrite the white 1 forward on an ionized ship, making it a green 1 ?

I feel like this is the same type of interaction.

edit: I suppose it is different. One is two separate upgrades. The other is an upgrade vs. game effect.

On 5/15/2018 at 2:14 PM, jwilliamson12 said:

edit: I suppose it is different. One is two separate upgrades. The other is an upgrade vs. game effect.

Close but not exactly. The reason you can treat the ionized 1 straight as green (Nien Numb crew works for this as well) is because being ionized doesn't alter the one straight on your dial. Instead the rules just say "Execute a white 1 straight". This applies even if the ship doesn't normally have a 1 straight at all. So you're just doing a 1 straight. Anything you have that's capable of modifying that can do so.

If the ion rule said something like "execute your slowest straight maneuver and treat it as white" then ion would overrule any upgrades that made it green.

Well not what I expected but thanks for the answer!

On ‎5‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 9:05 PM, thespaceinvader said:

The current RAW is that if two effects change the difficulty of a move, the more difficult one wins.

So Ailerons' white being more difficult than Mk2's green, Ailerons wins.

Errr... NO.

The rule is not that the most difficult one wins (which btw is a common mistake almost everyone make). That way of thinking is a remnant of an unwritten rule that never existed in this game, which made people to assume that "in case of conflict, the worst win". But as said, no such rule ever existed in X-wing.

The true rule is that the one that INCREASES the difficuty takes precedence over the one that DECREASES the difficulty.

But in this example, BOTH effects DECREASE the difficulty. So there's no obstacle to apply both of them.

In other words, both effects work, and you choose the most beneficial to you according to circumstances.

Or, TIE mk2 decreases the difficulty to green, and Ailerons increase it to white and thus win.

It's not 100% clear and could definitely use an FAQ, not that we;re likely to get one.

Bizarrely, TIE Mk2 actually decreases the difficulty of the Aileron move to green... but not the 3-banks (which are improved from red to white, but not further, to green). If you were to equip only the TIE Mk2 modification, and not the Ailerons, then your three-bank maneuvers would indeed become green.

15 hours ago, Jehan Menasis said:

Errr... NO.

The rule is not that the most difficult one wins (which btw is a common mistake almost everyone make). That way of thinking is a remnant of an unwritten rule that never existed in this game, which made people to assume that "in case of conflict, the worst win". But as said, no such rule ever existed in X-wing.

The true rule is that the one that INCREASES the difficuty takes precedence over the one that DECREASES the difficulty.

But in this example, BOTH effects DECREASE the difficulty. So there's no obstacle to apply both of them.

In other words, both effects work, and you choose the most beneficial to you according to circumstances.

I'll cosign this. Here's the text of the rule from the FAQ (4.4.1, p.25):

Quote

Q: If two or more game effects that change the difficulty of a maneuver conflict, which effect takes priority?

A: An effect that increases the difficulty of a maneuver takes priority over an effect that decreases the difficulty. For example, if a ship equipped with R2 Astromech is dealt the Damaged Engine Damage card, all of the ship’s turn maneuvers are treated as red maneuvers, including the 1-speed and 2-speed turn maneuvers.

I'd describe both Advanced Ailerons and Twin Ion Engine Mk.II as decreasing the difficulty of the maneuver and would allow TIE Mk.II to take precedence. I don't think the "3 banks remain white" argument is invalid per se, but I think there's enough here to justify the "green" ruling.

I would say the banks stay white. Yes the Ailerons are decreasing the difficulty from the base value of red, but once you turn on the Mk2 and make the bank green at that point the Ailerons which are still on are now increasing to white meaning they override the Mk2.

Also the Ailerons do not include the word "may" so they are always on. If they were a "may" ability then you could choose to not apply them and let the Mk2 go green but as it stands they have to stay on which means they are going to override the Mk2.

Maybe I am simplifying things too much here, but since they are conflicting abilities, don't you get to choose the order? Can't one just say they are going to choose them as both white and green (opting into the "may"), and decide to do label them white first then turn them to green?

5 hours ago, shaunmerritt said:

Maybe I am simplifying things too much here, but since they are conflicting abilities, don't you get to choose the order? Can't one just say they are going to choose them as both white and green (opting into the "may"), and decide to do label them white first then turn them to green?

I don't think so but theres no precedent for this exact situation that's been clarified as far as I know so this isn't 100% firm by any means.

There's some interpretation on my part here but the way I read it "Treat your banks as white" implies to me that this is essentially an always on effect. It's constantly being applied. As oppossed to saying something like "when you reveal your Manever, if it is a bank, decrease it's difficlty 1 step". The Mk2 is also always on assuming you choose to trigger it. Then we have two always on abilities conflicting but the rules specify an increase in difficulty takes priority. When the Mk2 attempts to activate the Ailerons immediately increase the difficulty back up to white.

Let me use a parallel from the Game of Thrones LCG. There's a card called Dracarys that reduces a character's strength by 4 until the end of the phase and they die if they get to 0. There are also effects in the game that can save a character when they would otherwise be killed. These effects do not work against Dracarys because it lasts until the end of the phase (similar to how the mods here last until the end of the maneuver). So Dracarys is constantly attempting to kill the character and even if you resolve a save Dracarys then just immediately kills them again and now they die. I believe it's the same situation here, both mods are simultaneously and constantly trying to change the maneuver but the Ailerons win because that's an increase from the green of the Mk2.

Like I said, this isn't cut and dried as we don't have a precise precedent for that l, but if I'm putting my TO hat on making a ruling thats what I'm going with and why.

To me, a lot of it is just a spirit of generosity. Someone's investing in TIE Mk.II, they should get the green. Again, I think the "stays white" argument has probably about as much merit, but it's nearing the end of 1E X-Wing, and if there's enough of a hook to hang a ruling on, I'd rather do it. It's not out of the question to consider outcomes in rules discussions: that happens in law all the time.

On 5/15/2018 at 12:05 PM, thespaceinvader said:

Oops. Never mind.

.

Advanced Ailerons: Treat your bank 3 maneuvers as white - mandatory.

Also You must execute a white maneuver bank 1, right or left, straight 1.

Ion Mk2: You may treat all bank maneuvers as green - not mandatory.

As long as Adv.Ail. is mandatory, i think that takes precedence on time, and that Ion Mk2 can change the 3 bank maneuvers to green. When you reveal your dial, if it is a bank maneuver, you may treat as green, including the banks maneuvers from the MUST clause of Adv.Ail.