I'm not entirely sure a redirect would actually make them that much stronger.

As for second player, they have 2 evades so you can sit at long range take an attack, and then be in position to shoot back after your opponent moves forwards. Or as Ginkapo stated they are the ultimate picket deterrent for a large ship. Seems to me people want every ship to do everything. As second player your opponent has the initiative, which means you have to play area denial to minimize that advantage, and Raiders are supremely easy to double arc with, which again makes them superb area denial ships, unless your opponent can destroy it outright with an activation they will not move into close range to take a double arc from it willingly as it punches well above its weight.

14 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

I'm not entirely sure a redirect would actually make them that much stronger.

As for second player, they have 2 evades so you can sit at long range take an attack, and then be in position to shoot back after your opponent moves forwards. Or as Ginkapo stated they are the ultimate picket deterrent for a large ship. Seems to me people want every ship to do everything.

This. Its not that its a bad ship, but if you arent using it for its role, and specifically, flying it correctly for its role, then it will not be good. A CR90 is easy to fly, you go in circles. A Star Destroyer is easy to fly, point at enemy and profit. A raider must time its approach perfectly, and if it does it can drop 5 black/2blue on anything and punch like a Vic, or you fly it wrong and it dies.

If anything thia thread should be “Thoughts on Raider roles and how to fly them” cause every single variant has to be flown differently. As vast as the differences between a Neb, CR90, and Gladiator. Its not easy, but it Is potent, and it can be exceptionally powerful in it’s areas of expertise.

5 hours ago, Norsehound said:

You're not happy with your purpose-made TRCs? I thought all CR-90s came with it standard these days. Can I circle-strafe at long range with a 7 point upgrade card that gurantees 2 damage or a crit?

You have HIE now, which guarantees 3 damage to shields from 1 die, so you have one of similar value. Follow-up point: EWS makes CR90 spam sad/no longer a thing. One is still good, though, and worth the TRC addition.

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I think this is what DCaps are supposed to do, which I admit may reverse my opinion on Raiders once I get to the table next. Both TRCs on the '90A and DCaps on a RDR-II land the ship at 51 points- which is likely intentional.

Wait, have you not tried DCaps?

1 hour ago, geek19 said:

You have HIE now, which guarantees 3 damage to shields from 1 die, so you have one of similar value. Follow-up point: EWS makes CR90 spam sad/no longer a thing. One is still good, though, and worth the TRC addition.

Wait, have you not tried DCaps?

Lordy. HIE Dcaps Raider 2 and an ACM Kuat can kill a Star Destroyer in 3 activations. He will enjoy it! Even easier to make happen with Screed. And it can be done before the ISD even is able to fire if you use 4 activations.

13 minutes ago, sweeper678 said:

Lordy. HIE Dcaps Raider 2 and an ACM Kuat can kill a Star Destroyer in 3 activations. He will enjoy it! Even easier to make happen with Screed. And it can be done before the ISD even is able to fire if you use 4 activations.

HIE are terrible dirty things that Screed guarantees will go off. I've only faced the combo once but that assured damage is just not fun to defend against.

I personally like the double evades. It allows you to tank from long range relatively well. If a 3 red attack rolls a hit, double hit, and an accuracy, then you're taking 1 damage. They can target the brace or the other evade, and you're left with the second evade to discard the double damage die. If they roll a a double and 2 accuracies, then they're going to have to shut down both evades, and you can brace, which is a nice relief since that's typically the first token that is targeted. It also allows you to be aggressive with Vader if you want, spending one of those evades to reroll, even tossing a red one if need be. Which can be really important on a R2 Dcap HIE ship as it brings you from 68% crit chance to 89% (assuming a CF dial, or 58% to 82% w/o a CF). Sure, then when people attack, they'll accuracy your green evade, but that's okay as the next round your evades aren't worth much anyways.

Redirect would definitely make the ship stronger, but I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not. A 51pt R1 w/ ExRacks and OE is a nice point range. For XWM comparison, it takes up about as much of your list as a TIE Fighter does. No one expects much from a TIE, but a well placed TIE can completely change the game. A 60pt R2 w/ Dcap HIEs is also a very nice point range. And the two are not mutually exclusive, they can be run in pairs for a good effect, covering each others blind spots so to speak. R2 wants to engage early in the game and run away, R1 wants to wait till the end of the game for the kill shots.

But as we're talking about how to make them better, or how to fly them better... I'm really excited to try one out with Brunson. Raiders are nimble enough to stay at that 1-2 range of obstacles to ensure that he can be used each round. They don't want to be eating massive dice attacks anyways, so ideally they'll be staying at <4 dice. Brunson couples with the Evades, to potentially cancel 2 dice at long range (and with the double evade, they likely can't accuracy both anyways). This should mean that at long range they're untouchable, or close to it. But it also means that when those R1 get in close, they basically still have an evade via Brunson. And as we've all pointed out, this is their major weakness... When they get in close, they basically don't have any tokens (they have the brace, which is easily accuracied). Heck, an Exracks OE Raider does 7.25 damage with a 58% of an accuracy (if you CF a blue)... That's enough to outright kill a Motti Raider 1. But there's alos a 78% chance of at least a single double damage die there that Brunson can knock out, bringing it down to 5 damage, and surviving the attack (given with only 1 hull, and a 46% chance of taking a crit anyways, even after Brunson). Another way to look at it, is that a double arced Demo front shot only has a 23% chance of an accuracy, and a 82% chance of a black crit. It only has a 40% chance of two or more black crits though (assuming you CF a black into the first attack). So you can drop that first attack from 5+APT down to 2 most of the time. Then for the second attack, brace again to drop it from 5+APT down to 3+APT. Well, I guess the math shows that you still are likely dead, but just barely :). The point is that without Brunson, you don't have a hope, and are possibly one shot from that front arc (Accuracy, hit x3, hit/crit x1) with a CF. Brunson means that you're guaranteed to take both shots, and have ~25% of living. And if he doesn't have the same hull zone double arced, you *should* live.

6 minutes ago, durandal343 said:

HIE are terrible dirty things that Screed guarantees will go off. I've only faced the combo once but that assured damage is just not fun to defend against.

Good thing they're not assured against anything with Evade (or better yet, double evade) or Scatter.

4 minutes ago, Khyros said:

Good thing they're not assured against anything with Evade (or better yet, double evade) or Scatter.

Yes, it's also good that they only take out shields..

12 minutes ago, Khyros said:

Good thing they're not assured against anything with Evade (or better yet, double evade) or Scatter.

Very true. But I like to think of them as more of a whaling ship than anything else.

8 minutes ago, sweeper678 said:

Very true. But I like to think of them as more of a whaling ship than anything else.

I've learned recently that they can erase a HH pretty easily. You go from not many shields to absolutely no shields very quickly.

4 hours ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

Bottom  line for me?

Raiders are act  ually fairly easy to use as first player. Especially with activation adv  antage.   

You could say this about any ship. If you have last first, that pushes any ship up the effectiveness ladder, even more so if it is a short range hitter. The difference is that the CR-90 with TRC is just as effective in the second position while the Raider must be exceptionally careful the moment it loses that advantage.

1 minute ago, zingerwhip said:

The difference is that the CR-90 with TRC is just as effective in the second position while the Raider must be exceptionally careful the moment it loses that advantage.

True, you can kite with a CR90. But I would argue that kiting takes as much skill as careful Raider positioning as second player. They are different skills, but I have kited my CR90s to certain doom more than once.

2 minutes ago, zingerwhip said:

You could say this about any ship.

I would say yes to the brawlers (MC30, Glads, Raiders). My point is that when folks disregard or flat out hate on the Raider, I think that they just don't get the little guy.

17 minutes ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

My point is that when folks disregard or flat out hate on LEIA , I think that they just don't get HER .

FTFY

53 minutes ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

I would say yes to the brawlers (MC30, Glads, Raiders). My point is that when folks disregard or flat out hate on the Raider, I think that they just don't get the little guy.

That's been my experience as well. Raiders are also fine as second player but you strongly want/need activation parity or preferably activation superiority to set up traps that enemy ships will have a tough time avoiding. It's not too tough to get your front arc attacks in on ships that coast into range given the size of the Raider front arc. Activation superiority is also useful for threatening several ships at the start of the turn and the first player can only save one of them.

Raider-IIs are easier to use as second player, though, due to the superior range. They get pricey, though.

50 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Every time I bring up Leia...

Hey look a new Alt-art card!

1 hour ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

Hey look a new Alt-art card!

You're just jealous of my amazing hair.

3 hours ago, durandal343 said:

True   , you can kite with a CR90. But I would argue that kiting takes as much skill as careful Raider positioning as second player. They are different skills, but I have kited  my CR90s to certain doom more than once.      

Maybe this is my problem is that I just like to play empire but I want a kite like a TRC CR-90. Does the Empire have a solid kite ship? The Arquitens jumps in my mind so maybe that's what I need to focus on.

On 5/15/2018 at 3:54 AM, TTC said:

Raiders can be excellent when built to a certain role, and flown well in that role. And one of two things will usually happen to the Raider by turn 5--it'll either be gone, hopefully a worthwhile sacrifice to the glory of the Emperor, or it will be disengaging at speed 3 or 4 from the battlefield with at least one arc of shields gone and a couple of damage cards.

They go POOF easily if they are not flown well. But they can punch well above their weight if flown well.

In other words, it's a rewarding ship when you are able to use it well.

The HH corvette for the rebels is in a similar place (can take more hits, but isn't as fast or maneuverable, but still)

9 minutes ago, zingerwhip said:

Maybe this is my problem is that I just like to play empire but I want a kite like a TRC CR-90. Does the Empire have a solid kite ship? The Arquitens jumps in my mind so maybe that's what I need to focus on.

Yeah the Kittens are about it that I can think of. You can do TRC or DTT on them. Needa helps for the TRC. They are a bit limited by their movement profile.

15 minutes ago, zingerwhip said:

Maybe this is my problem is that I just like to play empire but I want a kite like a TRC CR-90. Does the Empire have a solid kite ship? The Arquitens jumps in my mind so maybe that's what I need to focus on.

Demolisher and Rhymer are both great kiters

4 hours ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

Hey look a new Alt-art card!

I like that this card can have the text replaced to be a Dodonna card.

Also, Dodonna is totally looking at her butt.

It seems clear where Han is looking.

Does anyone have a video or two that highlight the Raider being used well? Somthing that really highlights what this ship can do under the direction of a good admiral.