My only problem is they have a long range defense token suite for a ship that needs to be in knife fighting range. Other then that with good use of navigate commands and the right upgrade package they can be devastating. I have killed a full health ISD with only two raiders with APT and OE

I have determined that they're much easier to play as Player 1 than Player 2, at least the non-Dcap HIE variants. Though to be fair, I haven't tried the Flechette Torps version, I've been alternating between Dcap HIEs and ExRack OEs. The EXracks OE version is awesome. It's basically good for just one attack, but that one attack can be severely crippling. 2 Black, 2 Blue, plus 2 Blacks from ExRacks, plus 1 Black from CF, and you're rolling 5 Black 2 Blue on a 51 point ship. This comes out averaging 7.75 damage from a single attack with a 44% chance of an accuracy. This is one of the few times that it can be very beneficial to wait on your CF dial to see if you should add a blue though, which will decrease damage to 7.25, but increase accuracy to 58%. Getting that accuracy cab be critical depending on the ship you're attacking. On smaller ships, it allows you to lock down that brace, making them eat all 7-8 damage. And on larger ships, it can force them to blow ECMs, such that your actual heavy hitters can get the full damage through. But with ships with double tokens, it's probably better to just go for the damage. 7 damage with a single accuracy is enough to kill: Raiders, Gozanti, Arquitens (with a second Accuracy), CR90s, Hammerheads, MC30s (with a second accuracy), Nebulons (with a second accuracy), Pelta (with a second accuracy), and Transports. Double arcing isn't *that* useful, as they'll probably have additional tokens to mitigate the small amount of incoming damage from the second attack, and you're unlikely to ram anything since you are likely at high speed, but if you keep yourself at speed 2, then you *can* ram for another hull damage, and that extra damage is often the difference between living and dying for the other ship.

HIE Raiders seem to be a bit more forgiving, but require knowledge of when you need to get them out of there before they're in trouble. They're a bit of a weird ship... you want them attacking large ships and triggering HIE, but you don't want large ships targeting them. And at the same time, you don't want to waste your energy on smaller ships (though I will say that if you get a single decent attack off against a small ship, it's often enough to have them leave the fight). If you do go after a small ship, you have 4 blues (CF is one of their best friends) and rerolls, giving you a 90% chance of a crit to trigger HIE, and 3.25 damage in general. Though you need to be aware of trying it against ships with scatter or evade, you only have a 68% of accuracy, and a 26% chance of double crits, so they have about a 25% or so of making your entire attack basically useless. But if you manage to trigger HIEs, you're doing 6 damage to a small based ship. That should basically deplete all of the shields from 2 sides, leaving a 3rd at 1 or 0, and maybe even some hull damage. It's a "risky" proposal (though the risk is that you do practically nothing and they took your ship out of the fight, you're not actually putting your Raider at risk), but if it works, it can pay off huge dividends. You're likely to be in a position next turn to either force them to activate their small guy first (likely giving you the activation advantage in the main fight), or risk your Raider killing their small guy without him really doing much of anything.

Take all of this with a grain of salt. I love flying my Raiders, but I often get them killed. I realize their potential, but haven't gotten good enough to capitalize on it.

Honestly my biggest complaint with the Raider is that there is something better at everything the Raider is good at, but unlike the Assault Frigate, the Raider isn't a good multi-tasker.

10 hours ago, TTC said:

They go POOF easily if they are not flown well. But they can punch well above their weight if flown well.

In other words, it's a rewarding ship when you are able to use it well.

Yeah but... if you get my meaning... the only way to fly a raider is to "fly it well " One mistake and you're parked at short range from a large ship as second player. It's not forgiving.

Would it be too much to ask for to have upgrades to make it easier to fly? I feel a redirect would help here.

35 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

Yeah but... if you get my meaning... the only way to fly a raider is to "fly it well " One mistake and you're parked at short range from a large ship as second player. It's not forgiving.

Would it be too much to ask for to have upgrades to make it easier to fly? I feel a redirect would help here.

Sure.

But lower the skill floor, lower the payoff ceiling as well.

Trade an attack die or necessary upgrade slot for the privilege.

Otgerwise all you are doing is making it “better” rather than “easier”

38 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

Would it be too much to ask for to have upgrades to make it easier to fly? I feel a redirect would help here.

His name is Jerjerrod, and he's here to keep your ships on target.

1 minute ago, mhd said:

His name is Jerjerrod, and he's here to keep your ships on target.

Don't forget my man Ozzel Osbourne, conductor of the Raider crazy train!

Seriously, though, he's great with Raiders.

1 hour ago, Drasnighta said:

Sure.

But lower the skill floor, lower the payoff ceiling as well.

Trade an attack die or necessary upgrade slot for the privilege.

Otgerwise all you are doing is making it “better” rather than “easier”

Does the ship really need two evades? TRCs at least make the excess on the CR-90 into an advantage, but the Raider has no such card. And hanging at long range, where Evades is a benefit to the ship, means the ship is not combat viable on its own. DCaps on the II comes close, but it doesn't utilize those evades for the card to function and they can be removed.

So I propose cutting the redundancy to make it a tighter ship. Lose an evade for a redirect. Then the Raider can withstand punishing volleys when it is in close range and have a tool to deal with the prey it's designed to kill: Fighters.

1 hour ago, mhd said:

His name is Jerjerrod, and he's here to keep your ships on target.

1 hour ago, Snipafist said:

Don't forget my man Ozzel Osbourne, conductor of the Raider crazy train!

Seriously, though, he's great with Raiders.

I think Ozzel is the better pick here for Raiders over Jerjerrod (RDRs already have II and II at speed 2- Ozzel lets you go from full speed to full maneuver). What I mean by "flying" here though, is having the ship perform well in a list. Thinking of these commanders, I can see the potential for flanking. But when I consider fighter control duty there's always: 1. it's going to run into the face of big-dice carriers and 2. It's going to get hammered by the Yavarises of the universe and have little agency in protecting itself. *Shrug*

I do need to take these to the table again. I want to try Dcap raiders and see if that gives the empire what I saw out of CR-90s with TRCs.

@SgtDurandal and I were just having a conversation about how Fleet Commands, especially IF for an MSU is tough with the Empire because of the extreme cost of the Fleet Command platform which led us to talking a bit about the small base options for the Empire. We talked about the Raider and how we'd change it to be better and he shot my ideas down saying he didn't want an empire CR90.

That made me really think about the game and balance and the different strategies for both sides. I really appreciate that there are huge differences in the ships and how they work between the Rebels and Empire. It makes the game much more interesting. The Raider does alot of things very well. One of the things it does not do well is take hits. But which ships in that price range do? The CR90 dies when you look at it funny and a stiff elbow to the ribs of the more expensive Neb-b brings it down. Its tokens could be better, but look at how hard that thing can hit if you can get it where it needs to go! If it were easy to make it do the damage it's capable of then it would have to cost much more. It's all a compromise.

@Norsehound _ So, you just want to make it better, then?

1 hour ago, Norsehound said:

Ithink Ozzel is the better pick here for Raiders over Jerjerrod.

My raiders always die with shields on a side or two so JJ is perfect to use that excess capacity.There's no need to waste a turn slowing down and speeding up to stay on target. With him they can turn faster at speed 4 than speed 2.

That's my two cents and reasonable people can disagree, that's the whole premise of the internet, right?

*looks around internet, Oh no!

44 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

@Norsehound _ So, you just want to make it better, then?

Wasn't that the point of the thread, soliciting suggestions for just that?

Just now, Norsehound said:

Wasn't that the point of the thread, soliciting suggestions for just that?

What point premium would you put on your improvements? The redirect upgrade should probably bump up its cost, but would that make it cost prohibitive?

1 hour ago, durandal343 said:

@SgtDurandal and I were just having a conversation about how Fleet Commands, especially IF for an MSU is tough with the Empire because of the extreme cost of the Fleet Command platform which led us to talking a bit about the small base options for the Empire. We talked about the Raider and how we'd change it to be better and he shot my ideas down saying he didn't want an empire CR90.

That made me really think about the game and balance and the different strategies for both sides. I really appreciate that there are huge differences in the ships and how they work between the Rebels and Empire. It makes the game much more interesting. The Raider does alot of things very well. One of the things it does not do well is take hits. But which ships in that price range do? The CR90 dies when you look at it funny and a stiff elbow to the ribs of the more expensive Neb-b brings it down. Its tokens could be better, but look at how hard that thing can hit if you can get it where it needs to go! If it were easy to make it do the damage it's capable of then it would have to cost much more. It's all a compromise.

Hammerheads. You need a GOOD Cymoon roll to take one down in one shot. Not impossible, but for the cost and abilities you're getting....

37 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

Wasn't that the point of the thread, soliciting suggestions for just that?

If you’re already struggling with the points to take it, then just making it better, and thus, more expensive, won’t necessarily help.

Youre basically just taking a Gladiator at that point, both effectiveness and Cost.

The question I am asking is this:

Is it a “bad” ship that basically just won’t work as intended (like an untitled Nebulon)

or

Is itva “decent” but “difficult” ship that just needs skill and practice to get the most out of it?

....

only one one of those options needs “fixing”

Thanks to @Snipafist , I’ve gotten better with Raiders. But they require a couple different things. 1. You need activation advantage. You must position your Raiders such that they can go whaling by activating after something has come into range. Second, you need a substantive bid. If you can pull a double or triple tap with a Raider, it’s extremely cost effective. This is actually substantially easier with the 2 than the 1 for obvious reasons. This lets you use your defense tokens at Range while still being able to hurt something up close. And a D-Cap, HIE Raider that double taps is pretty darn scary.

its a very challenging ship to fly, and made more difficult by things like the Cymoon. But it CAN hit like a ton of bricks.

So it sounds like most of us say Raiders are good, but are very difficult to use. This isn't a bad thing at all. It also seems like we would like a few more ways to work this little guy. I really like the post move squadrons shot, but I feel like the best place for that would be a title plus it fits nicely with the Demolisher in giving Imperial small ships a move that is just theirs. Sadly the title idea would be next to impossible to get under the ffg business model. Maybe a small ship only offensive retrofit? Works for Gazanti, Raider, GR-75, and Hammerheads, or clarify that a flotilla is not a ship and therefore cannot take a 'SHIP only' upgrade.

The trade an evade for a redirect seems like a good idea and we have Needa for context so another unique officer upgrade works there. Give the Rebels access to Brace for the CR-90 and Hammerhead in the same way.

3 minutes ago, mhd said:

What point premium would you put on your improvements? The redirect upgrade should probably bump up its cost, but would that make it cost prohibitive?

You mean setting aside the argument that the Raider should have had this revision in the first place by cutting out the unneeded redundancy for the sake of making it easier to use?

It's hard to say where the cuts should be to the current version since there's already so little here, though if I were making a variant I'd probably cut out the offensive retrofit slot. If the RDR is better at protecting itself it won't need DCaps, and even taken as an AA platform players seem to run with Kallus and Ordnance Experts, so QLTs and PDR are not missed. I think boarding teams are the only time you'd utilize the offensive retrofit slot on the RDR- no need to give this capability to the RDRs if they're going to be more resilient in close-range fights.

I know that's not trading away an advantage, really, but I think it helps illustrate my point that this ship could be more efficient. I don't think CR-90 drivers have nearly as many complaints/problems about their ships as RDR drivers do.

1 hour ago, Norsehound said:

You mean setting aside the argument that the Raider should have had this revision in the first place by cutting out the unneeded redundancy for the sake of making it easier to use?

It's hard to say where the cuts should be to the current version since there's already so little here, though if I were making a variant I'd probably cut out the offensive retrofit slot. If the RDR is better at protecting itself it won't need DCaps, and even taken as an AA platform players seem to run with Kallus and Ordnance Experts, so QLTs and PDR are not missed. I think boarding teams are the only time you'd utilize the offensive retrofit slot on the RDR- no need to give this capability to the RDRs if they're going to be more resilient in close-range fights.

I know that's not trading away an advantage, really, but I think it helps illustrate my point that this ship could be more efficient. I don't think CR-90 drivers have nearly as many complaints/problems about their ships as RDR drivers do.

I can't equip DCaps to my HIE CR90B, so if you DON'T want the Offensive Retrofit, can I have it?

2 hours ago, Norsehound said:

You mean setting aside the argument that the Raider should have had this revision in the first place by cutting out the unneeded redundancy for the sake of making it easier to use?

It's hard to say where the cuts should be to the current version since there's already so little here, though if I were making a variant I'd probably cut out the offensive retrofit slot. If the RDR is better at protecting itself it won't need DCaps, and even taken as an AA platform players seem to run with Kallus and Ordnance Experts, so QLTs and PDR are not missed. I think boarding teams are the only time you'd utilize the offensive retrofit slot on the RDR- no need to give this capability to the RDRs if they're going to be more resilient in close-range fights.

I know that's not trading away an advantage, really, but I think it helps illustrate my point that this ship could be more efficient. I don't think CR-90 drivers have nearly as many complaints/problems about their ships as RDR drivers do.

Hands off my raiders offensive retrofit

30 minutes ago, MandalorianMoose said:

Hands  off my raiders offensive retrofit   

This feeling is why I would like something for this slot that would give the Raider the same clout that a TRC CR-90 has. No I don't want the same ability, just the same level of respect for what the ship can do.

2 hours ago, geek19 said:

I can't equip DCaps to my HIE CR90B, so if you DON'T want the Offensive Retrofit, can I have it?

You're not happy with your purpose-made TRCs? I thought all CR-90s came with it standard these days. Can I circle-strafe at long range with a 7 point upgrade card that gurantees 2 damage or a crit?

1 hour ago, MandalorianMoose said:

Hands off my raiders offensive retrofit

What are you using it for, aside from D-Caps on RDR-IIs and a foot-rest for Vader?

1 hour ago, zingerwhip said:

This feeling is why I would like something for this slot that would give the Raider the same clout that a TRC CR-90 has. No I don't want the same ability, just the same level of respect for what the ship can do.

I think this is what DCaps are supposed to do, which I admit may reverse my opinion on Raiders once I get to the table next. Both TRCs on the '90A and DCaps on a RDR-II land the ship at 51 points- which is likely intentional.

Only difference here is TR-90s can stay at long range and keep sniping every turn with concentrate fire. RDRs have one shot, then have to close if they want to keep hitting a target. RDRs can get more of a burst damage in, but they have to live long enough to return on the investment. I prefer consistency, and I don't like making risks with no guarantee on the payoff. DCap IIs look like good flankers to me, but all it takes is a list that cannot be flanked (such as Yavaris aceballs- fighters are too flexible).

The poor misunderstood Raider. Think of it as the nightclub bouncer sitting on the flanks of your ISD not letting any rif raf in. If it does nothing all game then its done its job, if it has to forcibly evict a hammerhead then thats great too.

Its not a Gladiator @Norsehound , so quit asking for it to be.

3 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

The poor misunderstood Raider. Think of it as the nightclub bouncer sitting on the flanks of your ISD not letting any rif raf in. If it does nothing all game then its done its job, if it has to forcibly evict a hammerhead then thats great too.

Its not a Gladiator @Norsehound , so quit asking for it to be.

I'm not the one asking for a Demolisher-like title for these ships. I am also not asking for an 8 point increase, access to a support team slot, an increase in health, or a massive inflation of its battery. A simple redirect means it can shed a 2-dice bomber hit to the nose, or use 4 shields when struck by a capital ship. That's feels a lot better than facing a fighter activation with useless defense tokens. I get that enough when my VSDs take hits from XI7s and the guy rolls an accuracy.

Bottom line for me?

Raiders are actually fairly easy to use as first player. Especially with activation advantage.

As second player you need to be a lot more wiley with them. They need to be a part of a multiple threat to be effective,

Either way, the little guy is wonderful. Id actually worry about making it too powerful with more survivability.