18 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

If you knew what electrum meant and you saw someone with an electrum lightsaber and didn't know anything else about them, what would your first impression of them be?

If they looked too young and inexperienced to be a Knight, let alone a Master and Council member? I’d be suspicious. I wouldn’t believe they’d be entitled to it. To be honest, given the meaning of electrum I’d be suspicious of anyone with such a lightsaber who I didn’t know anything else about. Someone with such a weapon should be famous, I’d wonder why I hadn’t heard about them. It’d be like seeing a scrawny kid with an Olympic medal or a military award in real life.

47 minutes ago, TheSapient said:

I don't agree. The Electrum finish wasn't about rarity of the material not quality if craftsmanship. It was about established symbolism.

Now, I don't think that a PC adding an Electrum finish would get the bonus that someone who EARNED it would get. But the right crowd would appreciate it.

Who would appreciate someone owning something they didn’t earn?

29 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The RAW specifically says that rare metals and precious gems adorning a Hilt are covered under the Superior Hilt Personalization, whether it’s ”fluff” or not is besides the point. They only confer the benefits given in the RAW rather than any “social” benefits.

Yes it is about the rarity of the metal. Electrum is a very rare and precious metal, up there with gold and platinum. That is why it is so rarely used. That is also why it falls under the Superior Hilt Personalization. It denotes a saber of very high quality construction, which, in turn makes a weapon with superior functionality.

The RAW of the fluff part is simply that it’s been personalized for cosmetic and/or practical purposes and that this *may* involve precious materials. It’s opening it up to GMs and players. And it’s fairly unlrelated to the actual mechanical effects. Why would electrum increase damage and confer an advantage when cutting someone?

You’d direct a player to this option if they asked how to make their lightsaber look cool and a little fancy?

It’s easy enough for a player to ask for some sort of ongoing social effect by spending 2 Advantage on the construction check and the GM and the player working it out. And for the GM to rule that it may not apply or even add setback depending on context.

19 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

The RAW of the fluff part is simply that it’s been personalized for cosmetic and/or practical purposes and that this *may* involve precious materials. It’s opening it up to GMs and players. And it’s fairly unlrelated to the actual mechanical effects. Why would electrum increase damage and confer an advantage when cutting someone?

You’d direct a player to this option if they asked how to make their lightsaber look cool and a little fancy?

Yes, I would.

When I was converting my character Korath over from D6/D30 to these rules, I also had to “rebuild” his lightsaber, part of which was a lock-on switch . The lock-on switch is one of the things stated to be covered by Superior Hilt Personalization, so that was what I needed in order to keep the lightsaber’s lock-on switch feature. The only other “option” is what’s covered in the Crucible’s lightsaber workshop rules.

51 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

Who would appreciate someone owning something they didn’t earn?

People interested enough to like replicas?

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I’d just think it looked nice, but wouldn’t place any special significance on it.

The RAW specifically says that rare metals and precious gems adorning a Hilt are covered under the Superior Hilt Personalization, whether it’s ”fluff” or not is besides the point. They only confer the benefits given in the RAW rather than any “social” benefits.

Yes it is about the rarity of the metal. Electrum is a very rare and precious metal, up there with gold and platinum. That is why it is so rarely used. That is also why it falls under the Superior Hilt Personalization. It denotes a saber of very high quality construction, which, in turn makes a weapon with superior functionality.

I disagree. Yes, it has some minor significance to the Prequel era Jedi, as an “award” of sorts to certain Jedi masters, but other than that, it simply shows that the weapon is of very high quality construction built by a master. Also remember that Palpatine also used electrum in the construction of his lightsaber Hilt, along with Phryyk and other rare metals, not because of any “social” effects, but because of the qualities of the metals themselves.

A superior hilt MIGHT have rate metals or gems. Rate metals or gems don't automatically make a hilt superior. The idea that you could just slap an expensive gem on a saber and it would suddenly do more damage and give an advantage is silly.

32 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, I would.

When I was converting my character Korath over from D6/D30 to these rules, I also had to “rebuild” his lightsaber, part of which was a lock-on switch . The lock-on switch is one of the things stated to be covered by Superior Hilt Personalization, so that was what I needed in order to keep the lightsaber’s lock-on switch feature. The only other “option” is what’s covered in the Crucible’s lightsaber workshop rules.

You bought a Ferrari to get power windows. That attachment covers a lot more than the incidental customizations that come along with it. You can do what you wanted with a simple mechanics check for much less cost. Or spend an Advantage on the construction roll (or explain to the GM this is a specific feature you’re attempting and a setback is added to the check). Maybe a really hard core GM would make you waste a HP for it.

If I was a player trying to add such a small feature and the GM said I’d have to wait until I could get that expensive and likely very hard to find attachment I’d be annoyed because this is outside the spirit and letter of the rules.

31 minutes ago, TheSapient said:

A superior hilt MIGHT have rate metals or gems. Rate metals or gems don't automatically make a hilt superior. The idea that you could just slap an expensive gem on a saber and it would suddenly do more damage and give an advantage is silly.

30 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

You bought a Ferrari to get power windows. That attachment covers a lot more than the incidental customizations that come along with it. You can do what you wanted with a simple mechanics check for much less cost. Or spend an Advantage on the construction roll (or explain to the GM this is a specific feature you’re attempting and a setback is added to the check). Maybe a really hard core GM would make you waste a HP for it.

If I was a player trying to add such a small feature and the GM said I’d have to wait until I could get that expensive and likely very hard to find attachment I’d be annoyed because this is outside the spirit and letter of the rules.

Yes, but that’s exactly my point. The Superior Hilt Personalization covers a lot of different possible options for personalizing a lightsaber hilt , among them being the use of rare metals or precious gems in its construction, personalized grips, Lock-on switches, or many other possibilities that aren’t specifically covered by other attachments.

As for doing a Lock-on switch with something other than Superior Hilt Personalization, I disagree. There is nothing in the crafting tables that cover it. Canonically, the standard lightsaber automatically turns off if you take your thumb off the button. A lock-on switch allows you to change your grip, throw the saber, etc without it automatically turning off on you. This can greatly improve the function of the weapon, hence why it is covered by the Superior Hilt Personalization.

11 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, but that’s exactly my point. The Superior Hilt Personalization covers a lot of different possible options for personalizing a lightsaber hilt , among them being the use of rare metals or precious gems in its construction, personalized grips, Lock-on switches, or many other possibilities that aren’t specifically covered by other attachments.

I'm sorry, but I think you are completely wrong about the Superior Hilt Personalization is. The attachment might include many different things, but those things in and of themselves do not constitute the Superior Hilt attachment.

"Numerous cosmetic or practical enhancements can be applied to a lightsaber, from rare metals and precious gemstones to customized grips and locking activation switches."

Your logic is that if rare metal is applied to the hilt, it becomes Superior, and in fact the Superior Hilt attachment covers and any all possible applications of a rare metal. If you attach gems to the hilt, it is the Superior Hilt Personalization attachment. If you add a customized grip, that is covered by the Superior Hilt attachement, and therefore........

wait

Customized grip? But Custom Grip is an attachment that can be applied to lightsaber hilts. What does this mean? If Superior Hilts can include customized grips AND Custom Grips can be their own attachments with their own properties, then Superior Hilts can include rare metals AND Electrum Coating of the Jedi Master can be an attachment with its own properties.

"But.....but....Electrum Coating of the Jedi Master isn't in the game! " I know. Welcome to the conversation.

1 hour ago, nameless ronin said:

Who would appreciate someone owning something they didn’t earn?

Sorry. Here is a less flip answer than what I offered before. I can imagine an electrum coating that is an homage to Jedi Masters of the past, to honor their legacy. I can imagine people who loved the Jedi. I can imagine a subset of these people who would understand and appreciate an homage. "You love what I love. You respect what I respect. I'm going to give you a better deal on this here water reclamation unit."

Wow still arguing against a lightsaber having social implications. I guess you guys didnt get the memo that this is sopposed to be the yes and system. Not the no period system. It is supposed to be cinematic. It is supposed to be fun. Stop arguing that a lightsaber cant have a social effect. We already have weapons that have a social effect. We have armor that has a social effect. So your arguments against the idea are silly. Raw already allows it.

13 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Wow still arguing against a lightsaber having social implications. I guess you guys didnt get the memo that this is sopposed to be the yes and system. Not the no period system. It is supposed to be cinematic. It is supposed to be fun. Stop arguing that a lightsaber cant have a social effect. We already have weapons that have a social effect. We have armor that has a social effect. So your arguments against the idea are silly. Raw already allows it.

Who, specifically, is saying lightsabers can't have social implications?

1 hour ago, Jedi Ronin said:

You bought a Ferrari to get power windows. That attachment covers a lot more than the incidental customizations that come along with it. You can do what you wanted with a simple mechanics check for much less cost. Or spend an Advantage on the construction roll (or explain to the GM this is a specific feature you’re attempting and a setback is added to the check). Maybe a really hard core GM would make you waste a HP for it.

If I was a player trying to add such a small feature and the GM said I’d have to wait until I could get that expensive and likely very hard to find attachment I’d be annoyed because this is outside the spirit and letter of the rules.

Actually he convinced a GM to give his converted character a brand new Ferrari for free because before the conversion his 10 year old pickup truck had power windows.

Player: my character's lightsaber had a lock on switch under d20 so I need to have a superior hilt customization in this system to replicate that.

Sane gm who's paying attention and doesn't let players get away with shenanigans: no you don't, you just have a lock on switch.

Player: but it's not in the rules as a separately available option that's why I have to have the superior customization.

GM: The rules also don't say that gungans can blink, but guess what they can, use some common sense.

Player: no, I only play by (my outlandish interpretation of) RAW (because it always benefits my character)

GM: get out of my game, I don't tolerate nonsensical munchkins at my table.

Player: no you get out of my game [restarts play by post with a new batch of victims who don't know him well enough to not give him the benefit of the doubt]

6 hours ago, TheSapient said:

Sorry. Here is a less flip answer than what I offered before. I can imagine an electrum coating that is an homage to Jedi Masters of the past, to honor their legacy. I can imagine people who loved the Jedi. I can imagine a subset of these people who would understand and appreciate an homage. "You love what I love. You respect what I respect. I'm going to give you a better deal on this here water reclamation unit."

I just think this is something better handled freeform, since it’s next to impossible to identify this group of people other than “people who loved the Jedi and appreciate an homage”. Some who loved the Jedi might think you’re actually disrespecting them too. This isn’t a narrow target group, it’s also a very vague one.

6 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Wow still arguing against a lightsaber having social implications. I guess you guys didnt get the memo that this is sopposed to be the yes and system. Not the no period system. It is supposed to be cinematic. It is supposed to be fun. Stop arguing that a lightsaber cant have a social effect. We already have weapons that have a social effect. We have armor that has a social effect. So your arguments against the idea are silly. Raw already allows it.

Yes, we have weapons that have a social effect. Because they are that specific type of weapon. The Darksaber is not a lightsaber with a few extra frills, it’s the Darksaber. A Staff of Office is not a staff with a bit of ornate filigree, it’s a Staff of Office. Your argument that this means social effects are the result of Adv is what’s silly. These are distinct items. They have separate entries in the rules that explain their properties. Crafting one thing doesn’t result in getting something else on account of a couple of Adv. Nothing in the rules says things cross over that way.

Again: your table, your rules, your fun. But by the exact same logic: my table, my rules, my fun. Do what you want. Square your ideas with your GM and you’re off to the races. More power to you. I’m not stopping you. I couldn’t even if I wanted to, which I don’t. That doesn’t mean I can’t or shouldn’t give my opinion.

12 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

If they looked too young and inexperienced to be a Knight, let alone a Master and Council member? I’d be suspicious. I wouldn’t believe they’d be entitled to it. To be honest, given the meaning of electrum I’d be suspicious of anyone with such a lightsaber who I didn’t know anything else about. Someone with such a weapon should be famous, I’d wonder why I hadn’t heard about them. It’d be like seeing a scrawny kid with an Olympic medal or a military award in real life.

But what if you were the young and inexperienced kid who was trained by a padawan who escaped order 66 and they were say 10 years older than you... would you maybe suspect that if they weren't the jedi master themselves then they either were trained by him/her or somehow managed to defeat them and take their saber? Or maybe you would suspect that they are/were fantastically wealthy to have afforded the electrum to build the saber themselves? That's 4 different good impressions that you could have of the character that fit into the recommended eras (dark times/rebellion) of the game.

4 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

I just think this is something better handled freeform, since it’s next to impossible to identify this group of people other than “people who loved the Jedi and appreciate an homage”. Some who loved the Jedi might think you’re actually disrespecting them too. This isn’t a narrow target group, it’s also a very vague one.

Well, I don't disagree about preferring to handle it freeform. But if it were important to a player who had some clear character and roleplay ideas, I would be willing to work with them. I personally like to let players participate in world building (when possible), so it the player had ideas about a new group, or adding some definition to the Church of the Force, I'd just include it in the game.

If it were just an entitled player whining about his/her crafting check, unwilling to develop any ideas, I'd just listen and move on.

As I said in a different post, I think that mechanically the Ceremonial Blade and the disguised quality are reasonably similar. I'd allow the lightsaber to look like a toy, prop, or an old, ruined saber and give a boost die when trying to convince people not to take it away.

I would not allow any nonsensical effect based on nothing more than other things in the game can have that effect. Fancy Paint Job, for instance, is part of a well established trope in our media. Being seen differently because of your awesome car is something we are all familiar with. Being more respected or feared after adding some stripes to a sword or knife hilt is not.

17 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, but that’s exactly my point. The Superior Hilt Personalization covers a lot of different possible options for personalizing a lightsaber hilt , among them being the use of rare metals or precious gems in its construction, personalized grips, Lock-on switches, or many other possibilities that aren’t specifically covered by other attachments.

As for doing a Lock-on switch with something other than Superior Hilt Personalization, I disagree. There is nothing in the crafting tables that cover it. Canonically, the standard lightsaber automatically turns off if you take your thumb off the button. A lock-on switch allows you to change your grip, throw the saber, etc without it automatically turning off on you. This can greatly improve the function of the weapon, hence why it is covered by the Superior Hilt Personalization.

Canonically huh? The only example I can think of is Luke who's inherited lightsaber has it's activation plate in the center of the hilt so you'd have a hard time holding it other wise (and if you've held a replica that isn't rubberized it's very unconfortable because it has sharp edged corners). We see many examples where this is not the case - from the movies to Clone Wars to Rebels. We even see examples (like Obi-wan) spinning his blade vertically in one hand which means he's no longer holding the activation plate (wherever that is on his non-EpIII lightsaber because it's not obvious). What is a thing we see is a lightsaber deactivates when it's dropped. As far as I know we never get a canonical explanation as to why (it could be I missed something).

What you've done is come up with an explanation of why that particular feature might grant the mechanical benefit of +1 base damage and 1 Advantage (the ONLY things mentioned in the rules section of the attachment). That's what the fluff is. It's ideas of what narratively the attachment can do, looks like, operates, etc. The actual mechanics are in a different section, clearly marked. And they also say nothing about locking your blade. A nice GM lets you throw that in as an incidental feature of getting the expensive and rare attachment (and perhaps as a reward for coming up with an interesting explanation of the lock affecting the use of the lightsaber).

As for the rules? The core mechanic of this system is spending Adv/Tri to get custom results to the situation at hand. Every table that offers "results" from spending Adv/Thr/Tri/Des - including the various crafting tables - are all suggestions. They are not the sum total of what's possible. They give GMs and players guidance on choosing their own results. They've presumably been play tested so they are likely balanced giving an indication of what's reasonable. The rules not only allow a PC/GM to decide "Yeah, 1 advantage on that craft check will let you add the activator lock feature" - they invite you to. You want +1 damage and a free advantage then you've got to get the attachment that offers that mechanical feature. Rules? Adding a locking feature is totally within the rules of the Mechanics skill. Your GM might require it to use up 1 HP and will tell you how much it costs and how much time it takes and the difficulty of the check etc. But it's in the rules. It's completely covered by the rules. You want a lightsaber that doesn't shut off when it's dropped? The rules already support that outside of the extremely rare 5,000 credit attachment that mechanically does something different.

I think you often say interesting things about various topics but you have a very restrictive view of a system that explicitly opens itself up to being whatever GMs/Players want it be.

EDIT: looking into it further it looks like canonically there isn't consistency on where the activation plate is. Finn and Padme both activate the same lightsaber by pressing the "button" at the top (sometimes called the blade-length adjuster) while luke hits the "switch" at the center of the hilt. The replicas have the activation plate in the center (where Luke activates it). Like other things "canon" is not consistent or really all that important at this level of detail.

5 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

But what if you were the young and inexperienced kid who was trained by a padawan who escaped order 66 and they were say 10 years older than you... would you maybe suspect that if they weren't the jedi master themselves then they either were trained by him/her or somehow managed to defeat them and take their saber? Or maybe you would suspect that they are/were fantastically wealthy to have afforded the electrum to build the saber themselves? That's 4 different good impressions that you could have of the character that fit into the recommended eras (dark times/rebellion) of the game.

I could have a lot of different impressions, both positive and negative, and depending on my personality I could have lots of different reactions to the same impression to boot. That’s the problem. Fantastically wealthy? Could mean I’d want to be your friend for the money. Could mean I see you as the perfect mark for a con. Could be I think you must be some snooty, arrogant prick. Could be I equate having money to being capable. Could be I think the only wa to get so fabulously rich is by being a criminal and/or taking advantage of others. If something can provoke so many different reactions, why would it give one specific bonus when interaction with a whole group of people (possibly with everyone)? Freeform it, I’d say. If it’s noticeable and interesting, definitely have people react to it - but have them react in whatever way is appropriate for them, rather than always the same.

57 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

I could have a lot of different impressions, both positive and negative, and depending on my personality I could have lots of different reactions to the same impression to boot. That’s the problem. Fantastically wealthy? Could mean I’d want to be your friend for the money. Could mean I see you as the perfect mark for a con. Could be I think you must be some snooty, arrogant prick. Could be I equate having money to being capable. Could be I think the only wa to get so fabulously rich is by being a criminal and/or taking advantage of others. If something can provoke so many different reactions, why would it give one specific bonus when interaction with a whole group of people (possibly with everyone)? Freeform it, I’d say. If it’s noticeable and interesting, definitely have people react to it - but have them react in whatever way is appropriate for them, rather than always the same.

So could an Electrum Coating have the effect "GM will provide bonuses and penalties, when appropriate, to social checks where the lightsaber is displayed"?

17 hours ago, TheSapient said:

I'm sorry, but I think you are completely wrong about the Superior Hilt Personalization is. The attachment might include many different things, but those things in and of themselves do not constitute the Superior Hilt attachment.

"Numerous cosmetic or practical enhancements can be applied to a lightsaber, from rare metals and precious gemstones to customized grips and locking activation switches."

Your logic is that if rare metal is applied to the hilt, it becomes Superior, and in fact the Superior Hilt attachment covers and any all possible applications of a rare metal. If you attach gems to the hilt, it is the Superior Hilt Personalization attachment. If you add a customized grip, that is covered by the Superior Hilt attachement, and therefore........

wait

Customized grip? But Custom Grip is an attachment that can be applied to lightsaber hilts. What does this mean? If Superior Hilts can include customized grips AND Custom Grips can be their own attachments with their own properties, then Superior Hilts can include rare metals AND Electrum Coating of the Jedi Master can be an attachment with its own properties.

"But.....but....Electrum Coating of the Jedi Master isn't in the game! " I know. Welcome to the conversation.

Remember, I said " or many other possibilities that aren’t specifically covered by other attachments." If something specific is covered under a different attachment, then, that attachment obviously takes precedence. There currently is no "electrum coating" attachment, but the use of rare metals in a hilt's construction is an option in the Superior Hilt Personalization. And, honestly, electrum wouldn't just be used in the decor of a hilt either. Being an alloy of gold and silver (both naturally occurring and man-made), Electrum has excellent conductive properties, making it ideal for the internal systems of a lightsaber. This, in turn, would greatly improve the functionality of the weapon.

4 hours ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Canonically huh? The only example I can think of is Luke who's inherited lightsaber has it's activation plate in the center of the hilt so you'd have a hard time holding it other wise (and if you've held a replica that isn't rubberized it's very unconfortable because it has sharp edged corners). We see many examples where this is not the case - from the movies to Clone Wars to Rebels. We even see examples (like Obi-wan) spinning his blade vertically in one hand which means he's no longer holding the activation plate (wherever that is on his non-EpIII lightsaber because it's not obvious). What is a thing we see is a lightsaber deactivates when it's dropped. As far as I know we never get a canonical explanation as to why (it could be I missed something).

What you've done is come up with an explanation of why that particular feature might grant the mechanical benefit of +1 base damage and 1 Advantage (the ONLY things mentioned in the rules section of the attachment). That's what the fluff is. It's ideas of what narratively the attachment can do, looks like, operates, etc. The actual mechanics are in a different section, clearly marked. And they also say nothing about locking your blade. A nice GM lets you throw that in as an incidental feature of getting the expensive and rare attachment (and perhaps as a reward for coming up with an interesting explanation of the lock affecting the use of the lightsaber).

As for the rules? The core mechanic of this system is spending Adv/Tri to get custom results to the situation at hand. Every table that offers "results" from spending Adv/Thr/Tri/Des - including the various crafting tables - are all suggestions. They are not the sum total of what's possible. They give GMs and players guidance on choosing their own results. They've presumably been play tested so they are likely balanced giving an indication of what's reasonable. The rules not only allow a PC/GM to decide "Yeah, 1 advantage on that craft check will let you add the activator lock feature" - they invite you to. You want +1 damage and a free advantage then you've got to get the attachment that offers that mechanical feature. Rules? Adding a locking feature is totally within the rules of the Mechanics skill. Your GM might require it to use up 1 HP and will tell you how much it costs and how much time it takes and the difficulty of the check etc. But it's in the rules. It's completely covered by the rules. You want a lightsaber that doesn't shut off when it's dropped? The rules already support that outside of the extremely rare 5,000 credit attachment that mechanically does something different.

I think you often say interesting things about various topics but you have a very restrictive view of a system that explicitly opens itself up to being whatever GMs/Players want it be.

EDIT: looking into it further it looks like canonically there isn't consistency on where the activation plate is. Finn and Padme both activate the same lightsaber by pressing the "button" at the top (sometimes called the blade-length adjuster) while luke hits the "switch" at the center of the hilt. The replicas have the activation plate in the center (where Luke activates it). Like other things "canon" is not consistent or really all that important at this level of detail.

Luke's first lightsaber, and Vader;s lightsaber both have Lock-on switches . Arrua Sing's lightsaber also had a lock-on switch.

on the opposite end of the scale, so to speak, is the pressure grip , basically, a dead-man's switch .

3 minutes ago, TheSapient said:

So could an Electrum Coating have the effect "GM will provide bonuses and penalties, when appropriate, to social checks where the lightsaber is displayed"?

Sure, but to be honest this effect should apply to lots of things anyway - including regular, non-electrum lightsabers (though the reactions should be less pronounced). When a not-so-lawful NPC sees a bounty hunter PC in full Mandalorian beskar’gam I’ll definitely make him see that as a bigger threat than some random guy checking out the wanted posters. A gearhead NPC will react favourably to a PC with a well-maintained ship with some custom modifications. The reaction of a Wookiee NPC to someone wearing a Wookiee pelt should be obvious. And none of it has anything to do with Adv on a check, including Electrum coating on a lightsaber hilt (since you can just get that by paying a smith to do some fine metalwork if you really want it).

22 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I own two fully functional swords. And for several years was heavily involved with medieval recreation. I also religiously watch Forged in Fire , and one of the most important fact in making a functional blade is having a sharp edge and the ability to maintain said edge. Without that edge, it’s just a pretty wall hanging.

Oh, I agree that Superior Hilts Personalization doesn’t confer a social benefit. My point, though, is that it does specifically cover any such “cosmetic” embellishments.

Incorrect. I know 5 blade smiths. A good sword is still a good sword regardless of wether or not the blade is sharpened. The sharpness has nothing to do with the quality of the blade. A good quality blade that has not been sharpened is still a good quality blade. In fact one of them has written books on the subject matter that the curator for to Tower of London has on his shelf.

As to the superior hilt. It CAN cover that stuff. It does not necessarily cover that stuff. You CAN have a social benefit with out the superior attachment. You keep trying to ridgidly put stuff in boxes in a system that is not meant to be as redgid as you keep trying to make it.